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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Kurykh ( talk) 05:29, 28 February 2017 (UTC) reply

Joanna Haartti

Joanna Haartti (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
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The article currently does not establish notability of the actress. JDDJS ( talk) 06:14, 3 February 2017 (UTC) reply

Question @ JDDJS: Do the changes in the article that document that Haartti has appeared as the lead in plays at renowned Finnish theatres & festivals, a TV series, & an Oscar nominated short film now establish her notability?
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  B E C K Y S A Y L E S  06:22, 10 February 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Keep: Article needs improvement, but with non-English sources, it is a little rougher haul. Appears to meet at least a basic indicia of notability. Montanabw (talk) 11:05, 11 February 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Delete as we actually base these articles and subjects by WP:ENTERTAINER because it's best applicable and she's not satisfying it, not because of the mere number of works, but because of their significance, none of them inherit notability and the article shows nothing else to confirm a significant career; we improve and ultimately show improvements when they're conceivable but they're not in this case, and even English or not, shows she's not had any major works. To search for sources, I went here and found nothing but mere announcements and mentions, none of which help; next, FinnishWikipedia is far different from our standards and, like several others, articles have been unchanged there for years, so because this is the EnglishWikipedia, we base our things ourselves. The article's current sources are only simple listings. SwisterTwister talk 05:10, 12 February 2017 (UTC) reply
Question / Comment @ SwisterTwister: Although I agree that en.Wikipedia has its own standards, I would also like to note that there are two other language versions of the article, pl:Joanna Haartti & es:Joanna Haartti, even though they are of lesser quality than the current English version of the article. Have you revisited the article? While it is still what I would consider a stub, I have fleshed it out a bit & added a source for every statement. Merely being a stub is not a criteria for deletion. I believe that appearing as the lead in plays at renowned Finnish theatres & festivals, a TV series, & an Oscar nominated short film together make Haartti notable. Peaceray ( talk) 08:29, 24 February 2017 (UTC) reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Kurykh ( talk) 00:57, 18 February 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Comment I have added about a dozen citations plus additional text. Besides appearing as the lead in an Oscar-nominated short, Haartti was on MTV's Putous (Comedy Combat) & the lead in a Finish play based on Billy Tipton's life. She seems to be a versatile actress; it's hard to tell if she is a big fish in a small pond because I don't do well with Finnish, but it certainly seems that she is notable in Finland. Peaceray ( talk) 06:44, 20 February 2017 (UTC) reply
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Finland-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple ( talk) 02:28, 22 February 2017 (UTC) reply
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple ( talk) 02:28, 22 February 2017 (UTC) reply
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Theatre-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple ( talk) 02:28, 22 February 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Delete - Article and sources do not establish establish notability per guidelines. Fails WP:NACTOR basic WP:GNG as subject has not received "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Article has been "reference bombed" with a lot of sources that do not meet this requirement. Most are short mentions of the subject with nothing of substance. CBS527 Talk 04:40, 23 February 2017 (UTC) reply
Question / Comment - @ Cbs527:: In the statement that "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject" there are three criteria. While allowing that "significant coverage" is debatable, which of the thirteen references fail the "reliable sources" & "independent of the subject" tests? I did the "reference bombing" as you call it, & the point was to ensure that each & every statement in the article is supported by a reference. I would like to determine why you doubt their reliability & independence. In addition there is at least one tertiary source, Elonet, which is Finnish National Audiovisual Archive, which I believe that all the editors in this discussion should have no problem accepting as a reliable & independent source.
Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Additional criteria states that "People are likely to be notable if they meet any of the following standards." Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Entertainers states "1. Has had significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions." Joanna Haartti has:
  • Appeared as the lead role in an Oscar nominated short live film
  • Has appeared in two TV series, one a comic reality show, the as the lead in a dramatic series
  • Has appeared in the lead in several plays, most significantly IMHO, as Billy Tipton in Soita minulle Billy [Call me Billy]
  • I also would argue that she brings a certain LGBT cachet to her field as a highly visible lesbian who has played a transgender role.
WP:BASIC states "If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability; trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources may not be sufficient to establish notability." There is certainly a number of multiple independent sources (again 13 different citations). The question then becomes how many sources are required when discussion of a person is brief in most of the sources & yet that person has appeared as the lead in plays at renowned Finnish theatres & festivals, a TV series, & an Oscar nominated short film?
Peaceray ( talk) 08:07, 24 February 2017 (UTC) reply
Reply to above Comment @ Peaceray:
The sources may be sufficient support a statement in the article but establishing notability is a higher standard.
I was referring that for the purpose of establishing notability, WP:GNG requires a topic to meet all three requirements of "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". In this case, the significant coverage criteria. None of the sources seem to meet that requirement. As Finnish is not my native language, I have no knowledge if the sources are reliable or not. For the purposes of this discussion I am assume that they are reliable. I respectfully disagree that the sources meet WP:BASIC as most are not secondary sources (ie:database listings) or are trivial mentions.
Current sources in article:
1. Subject's listing in Actor Association of Finland
2. Subject's listing in Finnish movie database
3. Listing for performance of play "Call me Billy " at Theatre Jurkka
4. Another listing for performance of play "Call me Billy " at Theatre Jurkka
5. Subject isn't mentioned in article at all
6. Mention in "Finnish MTV" that actress was seen on the red carpet at the Oscar award ceremonies noting she was in a nominated film.
7. Mention that subject was in season2 of Finnish MTV Waterfall.
8. TV listing for Ghost Author
9. Brief mention as current partner of Minna Haapkylä.
10. Article about relationship with Minna Haapkylä
11. Article about Minna Haapkylä -several mentions as her partner.
12. Same source as #2
13. Listing in Finnish Film site
  • 1,2, 12 and 13 are simple listings in actor/movie databases. Coverage insufficient to fully establish notability per WP:NFSOURCES.
  • 3, 4 and 8 are listing for showings time of film or play. Coverage insufficient to fully establish notability per WP:NFSOURCES.
  • 6 and 7 are trivial mentions. Coverage insufficientt to fully establish notability per WP:GNG.
  • 9, 10, 11 have to do with relationship with Minna Haapkylä. WP:NOTINHERITED.
Note: appearing in an Oscar nominated short in itself does not establish notability nor being a lesbian actress per WP:NOTINHERITED. CBS527 Talk 19:19, 24 February 2017 (UTC) reply
User:Peaceray - Thanks for merging above reference #12 into #2. I agree that replacing #8 above with the Elokuvauutis source does provide more information but it still is a TV listing announcement. I have tried to find some sources, both in Finnish and English, that the "Haamukirjoittaja-sarjassa" was a notable TV series but so far I have been unable to. The fi.wikipedia article doesn't have any better sources either. CBS527 Talk 15:43, 25 February 2017 (UTC) reply
Putting aside the issue that neither Wikipedia nor IMDb are valid sources for establishing notability, her roles in A Man's Work (film) and The Happiest Day in the Life of Olli Mäki are rather minor roles and thus don't qualify for WP:NACTOR, Crit.#1. CBS527 Talk 15:43, 25 February 2017 (UTC) reply
I agree that a Wikipedia article about a film doesn't her notable. However, the prerequisite for a article on a film is that it is notable ( WP:NFILM). Hence, if there is a Wikipedia article on the film, that film has met notability standards. If not, the article on the film should be deleted, right? Therefore, all three films are notable per Wikipedia standards. What that leaves is the question of whether she had a significant role in multiple films.
Of the three films I listed, Do I Have to Take Care of Everything? shewhich won an academy award for best short film, in which she is the lead. In the other two she is listed respectively 7th and 9th on the IMDB pages of the other two films, both significant. -- David Tornheim ( talk) 16:07, 25 February 2017 (UTC) (corrected 19:08, 25 February 2017 (UTC)) reply
Neither Wikipedia (see WP:WPNOTRS) nor IMDb (see WP:RS/IMDB and WP:USERG) are acceptable sources for establishing notability. 100's of articles are added to Wikipedia every day and a number of them do not meet the criteria of notability. That is why we have AFD discussions.
Haartti did have the lead in Do I Have to Take Care of Everything? but it certainly did not win an academy award. Her roles in A Man's Work (film) (an unnamed women) and The Happiest Day in the Life of Olli Mäki are both minor roles with very little screen time or importance to the plot. That's not enough to satisfy WP:NACTOR. CBS527 Talk 18:31, 25 February 2017 (UTC) reply
Sorry for the typo, which I have corrected here. I did look up the Finnish translation of "Nuori nainen 2" and that does mean second woman, which I agree does not sound like a big role, but still ranks high on the list. What WP:RS evidence do you have that she had very little screen time in either of the second two films?
If you contend that any of the three films is not notable, then why not submit them to WP:AfD? I see no point in arguing over the notability of each and every film here and then a second time at WP:AfD. Until then, I am presuming that the WP:RS that continues to justify their existence is sufficient--especially since we are looking at them right now.
I invited more comment from Wikipedia:WikiProject_Actors_and_Filmmakers and Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Assessment. Hopefully one or more new editors will arrive who have expertise in film and make an appropriate judgment. I really don't see why so much text has to be used on this WP:AfD when she was a lead in a film that won an academy award. You are the only one who seems to be invested in deleting it. The others who sought to delete do not appear to have considered the academy award winning film or these other roles. I really don't see the harm in keeping it when it is that close. Seems to me we should err on the side of inclusion. -- David Tornheim ( talk) 19:52, 25 February 2017 (UTC) reply
  • With all due respect, please read WP:WPNOTRS, WP:RS/IMDB and WP:USERG. What is contained in other Wikipedia articles or what is in IMDb is irrelevant to the discussion. Simply put, they are not reliable sources as there is no editorial oversight.
  • You have noted that she was in an academy award winning film. I'll assume good faith on your part, but you are mistaken, she has never been in any film that has won an Academy Award.
  • Additionally, your suggestion that I "seems to be invested in deleting it" is off base. I am "invested" in having verifiable articles and I do not believe this article meets the policies and guidelines concerning notability for the reasons I have stated above. CBS527 Talk 16:07, 26 February 2017 (UTC) reply
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. CBS527 Talk 16:32, 25 February 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Weak Delete - This is a tough one. Without understanding the significance of most of the stage roles she had at the Finnish National Theatre, it is difficult to ascertain her notability. The fact that they are not listed as leading roles (unlike the role she had at Theatre Jurka - but what level of theater is that?), makes me believe that they are supporting roles. But again how significant. Neither this article or the article in the Finnish WP has sourcing for her stage work. If someone can find sourcing to show that these stage performances were significant roles, than I'd be more than willing to switch my !vote. Right now, the film work surely does not meet WP:GNG or WP:NACTOR. Onel5969 TT me 01:29, 28 February 2017 (UTC) reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Joanna_Haartti&oldid=1089528451"

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