- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. There's general agreement that the coverage here is borderline: given that, the argument that an exclusive reliance on local news coverage implies a lack of notability, is persuasive. Will draftify per request. Vanamonde ( Talk) 07:32, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
Hobson Snead
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Fails WP:GNG. The only source is his fraternity(?). Clarityfiend ( talk) 05:38, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, American football, and Virginia. Shellwood ( talk) 08:18, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- Keep I've expanded this article with sourcing that establishes notability of subject. Nominator did not perform a WP:BEFORE prior to nomination. Jweiss11 ( talk) 16:58, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- Keep with added sources from Jweiss11. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 17:20, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- Delete. Snead's only claim to notability is as football coach for two years at a junior college. See Bluefield University#History. Jweiss11 has done thorough research, and there is some minor coverage in the local Bluefield newspaper. Also some coverage in the Richmond newspaper when he coached high school football there. IMO it's not deep enough to pass WP:GNG. If it were enough, we could/would have articles on just about every high school and junior college coach. For a junior college or high school coach to have a stand-alone article, I would want to see something truly out of the ordinary and strong, in-depth coverage. Cbl62 ( talk) 18:18, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- Delete. The sourcing is much improved, but I don't think of the sources amount to significant coverage. There isn't a suitable merge target either; Bluefield Rams football redirects to Bluefield Rams. High school/junior college coaches by themselves, absent some other accomplishment, probably aren't notable. I'm open to being convinced otherwise. @ Jweiss11 and PCN02WPS: talk you folks into helping create an article about the program, as a possible merge target for Snead and a few others? Mackensen (talk) 19:01, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- Weak Delete Despite significant improvements made by User:Jweiss11 I think the level of WP:SIGCOV falls a little short of WP:GNG. A head coach of high school and junior college football shouldn’t be notable for that alone. Frank Anchor 19:26, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- Comment, currently searching for sources, so far I have found
"HOBBIE SNEAD TO HEAD BOYS CLUB" from the Bluefield Daily Telegraph which I would argue is SIGCOV.
BeanieFan11 (
talk)
19:45, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- Other articles that I could find:
- SCOTTSVILLE BEATS RED SOX NINE, 8-4: "Hobby" Snead, Ex-Spider Star, Pitches Against Billy Ricker's Team from The Times Dispatch.
- Snead Is Appointed Coach of Justices; to Succeed Miller from The Times Dispatch.
- Tarheels Winners By Close Score of 2-1: Snead, U of Richmond Pitcher, Is Outhurled by Rival, Johnson from The Times Dispatch.
- COACH BLUEFIELD COLLEGE RESIGNS from the Bluefield Daily Telegraph.
- EMSWELLER WILL COACH DEACONS from the Bluefield Daily Telegraph.
- Hobby Snead and the Spiders of 1922 from The Times Dispatch.
- This Boy Does Spiders' Punting from The Greenville News.
- Hurt in auto wreck from The Bee. BeanieFan11 ( talk) 20:10, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- BeanieFan11 ( talk) 19:50, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, the piece found by BeanieFan11 from the Bluefield paper (announcing his election as superintendent of the local boys' club) can be categorized as SIGCOV. We can stipulate he received SIGCOV in the local Bluefield newspaper. But here's my take: Bluefield, Virginia (home of Bluefield College) was a city of about 2,500 persons in 1920. If we search the Bluefield newspaper (or other micro-small-town papers), we can find similar coverage about every high school or junior college coach or boys' club official. For me, I still expect more depth and breadth of coverage when the subject has such a low level of actual achievement. I'd rather we focus our collective energy on more substantial efforts than biographies of run-of-the-mill junior college coaches. Cbl62 ( talk) 19:58, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- How are these sources anything other than routine coverage of game results, hirings, and firings? Etzedek24 ( I'll talk at ya) ( Check my track record) 22:58, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
- Other articles that I could find:
- Very Weak Keep. Alright, I finished searching. I would say that
this is definitely SIGCOV.
This is probably SIGCOV,
this may be as well.
Maybe this counts? Then there is a lot of passing mentions I was able to find, as well as several pictures of him put in the local newspapers (see for example "This Boy Does Spiders' Punting"). I would say that considering he was a coach of a college football team (although junior college at the time), has at least two pieces of SIGCOV from different newspapers, and a bunch of mentions and other brief articles from other newspapers, he just barely gets by GNG.
BeanieFan11 (
talk)
20:16, 5 September 2022 (UTC)'
- Also, looking at NewspaperArchive.com, I would say this may be SIGCOV ("HOBBY SNEAD TO PILOT KEYSTONE BALL TOSSERS"). BeanieFan11 ( talk) 20:22, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- Reasonable minds can differ. Yes, it can be argued that this "barely passes GNG". And a similar case can be made for tens of thousands of run-of-the-mill high-school and junior-college coaches. IMO "barely passes GNG" isn't a good enough reason to create and maintain stand-alone articles on JC/HS coaches. Cbl62 ( talk) 20:26, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- Delete: The extra sources are helpful, but ultimately his most notable claim is coaching a now-NAIA program, and most NAIA coaches are not notable. His coverage is limited to a small-town newspaper. Perhaps a redirect to Bluefield as an ATD is possible as well, but I cannot in good faith vote to keep this. Etzedek24 ( I'll talk at ya) ( Check my track record) 13:54, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
-
Etzedek24
Rlendog, note that the claim "most NAIA coaches are not notable" is false if we're talking about head football coaches; see
Wikipedia:WikiProject College football/Coach Navboxes/NAIA.
Jweiss11 (
talk)
20:26, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
- Having navboxes doesn't guarantee that all those coaches would stand up to deletion scrutiny. In this case, whether or not I'm going against WPCFB consensus (to be fair, I do not edit much college football content), by mentioning his NAIA coaching status, I follow @
Cbl62's reasoning here. We are running into
WP:MILL here. Naturally his local paper will have coverage, but the coverage is just not adequate for a standalone article. I tend to fall on the inclusionist side of things, but I cannot in good faith see a reason to have a standalone article on this guy, especially when you take away his Sig Ep sources for not being independent. The paper coverage just doesn't cut it.
Etzedek24 (
I'll talk at ya) (
Check my track record)
22:56, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
- Etzedek24, the point is not that the navboxes exists. The point is that hundreds of such articles exist—and I supplied that project page with all the navboxes, because the articles are all linked there. Many of them have been challenged for notability and have passed. Many others are clearly notable in their current state. The claim about most NAIA head football coaches not being notability is false. That's my point—irrespective of Snead's of notability. Jweiss11 ( talk) 23:26, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
- Having navboxes doesn't guarantee that all those coaches would stand up to deletion scrutiny. In this case, whether or not I'm going against WPCFB consensus (to be fair, I do not edit much college football content), by mentioning his NAIA coaching status, I follow @
Cbl62's reasoning here. We are running into
WP:MILL here. Naturally his local paper will have coverage, but the coverage is just not adequate for a standalone article. I tend to fall on the inclusionist side of things, but I cannot in good faith see a reason to have a standalone article on this guy, especially when you take away his Sig Ep sources for not being independent. The paper coverage just doesn't cut it.
Etzedek24 (
I'll talk at ya) (
Check my track record)
22:56, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
-
Etzedek24
Rlendog, note that the claim "most NAIA coaches are not notable" is false if we're talking about head football coaches; see
Wikipedia:WikiProject College football/Coach Navboxes/NAIA.
Jweiss11 (
talk)
20:26, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
- Keep - enough coverage in multiple sources to meet GNG, and given the vintage it is likely that even more sources existed but are not ready available on line. Even if most NAIA coaches are not notable, that doesn't mean this one isn't. Rlendog ( talk) 14:05, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
- Delete per Etzedek24's reasoning. Best, GPL93 ( talk) 20:08, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
- Note to closing admin: in the event of a delete, I would like to userfy this article so that its contents can be used at some later date to build Bluefield Rams football or List of Bluefield Rams head football coaches. Jweiss11 ( talk) 20:30, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
KeepI see this as passing WP:GNG from the sources. Arguemnts like "It's an NAIA program today" should have no affect because the NAIA wasn't even formed until 18 years after his term at Bluefield. This puts it in the NCAA, which had no divisions until 1956. Note also the NFL was formed in 1920 and was in its infancy. This team was performing at the highest level of the sport and he was a head coach. I'm not shocked that online sources haven't caught up.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 20:36, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
- Bluefield was still a junior college during his tenure, so it was likely not an NCAA-affiliated school. The 1925 team's schedule appears to have been other junior colleges, Virginia Tech's freshman football team, and a private military boarding school.
GPL93 (
talk)
20:52, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
- Striking my position--this is getting interesting, the article
Bluefield University (which is linked from the
Hobson Snead artilce) says it begain in 1922, but Snead was coaching before then... there are multiple issues here that seem to be in conflict and validation is necessary. I think we need to at least userfy this one and possibly others until we can confirm what was really going on here--and that's before we do any assessment of notability.--
Paul McDonald (
talk)
21:56, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
- @ Paulmcdonald: Snead graduated from the University of Richmond in 1923 and began coaching that year at Bluefield. Jweiss11 ( talk) 22:00, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
- The article on Snead says
He served as the head football coach at Bluefield College in Bluefield, Virginia from 1923 to 1924
. 1923 comes after 1922. BeanieFan11 ( talk) 22:03, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
- Striking my position--this is getting interesting, the article
Bluefield University (which is linked from the
Hobson Snead artilce) says it begain in 1922, but Snead was coaching before then... there are multiple issues here that seem to be in conflict and validation is necessary. I think we need to at least userfy this one and possibly others until we can confirm what was really going on here--and that's before we do any assessment of notability.--
Paul McDonald (
talk)
21:56, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
- Bluefield was still a junior college during his tenure, so it was likely not an NCAA-affiliated school. The 1925 team's schedule appears to have been other junior colleges, Virginia Tech's freshman football team, and a private military boarding school.
GPL93 (
talk)
20:52, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
- Delete, per reasoning from Cbl62 and Etzedek24. Hey man im josh ( talk) 12:13, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
- Delete I think Cbl62 has it right. Fairly weak case for notability (coached largely high school) backed up by entirely local coverage. We need more for such a WP:ROTM figure, of which there are thousands.
- Very Weak Keep The things that the deleter said is now done, but there is still litte notablity. Sportsfangnome ( talk) 02:36, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
- Delete per Cbl62. Simply no claim to fame here. Reywas92 Talk 23:41, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.