The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
This game (or as COI editors insist we must call it, this "brand") fails
WP:GNG for lack of significant reliable coverage. Currently there are six references. The only "independent reliable source" is a one-paragraph item from 2010 in the Minneapolis Star Tribune. The others are blog entries, Trademarkia, and the company's website. In a search just now I found a few mentions of "the traditional German game Hammerschlagen" (which is incorrect; there are traditional German nail-driving games, but an American defined and trademarked the specific game Hammerschlagen). But I could not find enough material to build an article about the nail-driving games, and I found nothing at all about the "brand" Hammerschlagen.
MelanieN (
talk)
17:16, 9 December 2015 (UTC)reply
Comment: I have a history with this article. In February of this year, the self-described CEO of the company demanded on the talk page in very legalistic language that we clean up "factual errors". His main purpose was to defend his trademarks, and further to insist that this article could ONLY be about the trademarked version that they market (vs. generic games called Hammerschlagen that are not theirs). Although I expressed doubts about notability at the time, I helped to clean up and improve the article. I thought we had stabilized it. But over the past few days three different IPs have posted to the article, changing the word "game" to "brand" at every usage (and creating some ridiculously redundant sentences in the process). That does it; I have had it with this article. I should have tagged it as non-notable back in February. Now it is not only non-notable but promotional, with representatives of the company repeatedly tweaking it for their own purposes. --
MelanieN (
talk)
17:18, 9 December 2015 (UTC)reply
Comment. Who would ever have thought that banging nails into a piece of wood could lead to such a load of legalistic nonsense? Unbelievable! --
Necrothesp (
talk)
15:46, 10 December 2015 (UTC)reply
Comment @
Necrothesp. I got involved here because we want Wikipedia to stop encouraging the public to steal our property by using our trademarks without our permission. To promote such theft is extremely unethical: it is no different than Wikipedia promoting the unlawful use of
Coke's trademarks and encouraging the public to engage in such illegitimate use. Wikipedia's promotion to the public that it is acceptable to infringe upon our brand and the false promotion that Hammerschlagen is a generic word for a nail driving competition causes damage to us (called
dilution). Such damage to Hammerschalgen would likely cause us to stop being able to do business under our brand and likely lead to the loss of our employee's and affiliates' jobs. My involvement here is to protect our employees, customers, and affiliates for obvious reasons; I'm not interested in using Wikipedia as an advertising medium.
Jim at WRB (
talk)
20:31, 10 December 2015 (UTC)reply
@
MelanieN: Thank you for informing me that you intend to delete the
Hammerschlagen page for a lack of sources (I got an e-mail about it). It is unfortunate, but significant reliable coverage is limited simply because we are a cottage industry. I am still willing to help provide content and sources to this article. I know that you don't want us to directly edit
Hammerschlagen, and I'm extremely confused as to how to give input. If you give me a place to provide information and a medium to ask questions when I need help, I'll do just that. Also, I noted that you are concerned with is the public's alteration of the article. Clearly, the public recognizes that brand of hammerschlagen is exactly that: a brand. It is not a game. "Hammerschalgen" is not the generic name for a nail driving competition just as Harley-Davidson is not the generic name for motorcycle and Miller is not the generic name for beer. You stated that "representatives of the company [are] repeatedly tweaking it for their own purposes." I want to be very clear about this: when we were asked to not to alter the article, we did just that. I would appreciate it if you would please not blame us for the public's alterations.
Jim at WRB (
talk)
20:31, 10 December 2015 (UTC)reply
Comment. In the past, I was told to create a draft. When I did, it was deleted without specifying what exactly was wrong so it could be fixed. The references to news articles and other content I gave on the talk page have been removed. When I ask questions about Wikipedia's rules or how to give input, I am ignored. I'm more than willing to contribute, and would appreciate not being swept under the rug and blamed for things I did not do.
Jim at WRB (
talk)
20:31, 10 December 2015 (UTC)reply
User:Jim at WRB, I'm glad you got the message. I understand your frustration. What is needed to save this article is references with
significant coverage, such as news stories that are specifically about Hammerschlagen. I'll take a look at that deleted draft and see if there were sources in it that can be used. As for the recent changes, insisting that this must be called a "brand" rather than a "game" sounds like something that would be of interest only to the company and its lawyers, not to the "public", which is why I made that assumption. This discussion will last for a week, and if additional sources can be found that meet the requirements of the
WP:General notability guideline or of
WP:CORP, it should be OK. If you can find additional sources, you might want to list them here, so that they are visible to everyone evaluating the article. If they result in the article being kept, I will add them to the article myself. --
MelanieN (
talk)
16:37, 11 December 2015 (UTC)reply
I took a look at your draft. No wonder it was deleted! It was mostly a lecture about the sanctity of the trademark, and the reference citations are full of legalistic disclaimers. But it did have references. Here are the references that are actually about Hammerschlagen; discussants can use them to evaluate notability.
This and
this are independent sources.
This and
this and
this are from events where Hammerschlagen was played; the information was supplied by Hammerschlagen.
This is an excellent history of the restaurant and family, but does not mention Hammerschlagen. --
MelanieN (
talk)
17:18, 11 December 2015 (UTC)reply
Delete. Disregarding the frankly ridiculous sideshow, I can't find enough significant coverage in reliable sources to demonstrate notability. Any mentions I found where passing mentions, most of them on articles about Oktoberfest celebrations.
Dylanfromthenorth (
talk)
10:38, 16 December 2015 (UTC)reply
Delete. As with the others I don't see sufficient significant coverage for this to be considered notable; there's a lot of passing mentions and promotion but not enough to pass GNG. (Alas, I can but regret that
WP:HAMMER doesn't apply here.) -
The BushrangerOne ping only07:51, 23 December 2015 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.