- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. 78.26 ( spin me / revolutions) 13:44, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
Eric Dinowitz
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City-level politicians aren't inherently notable, and I can't find any solid secondary sources (beyond a few mentions in local press of his candidacy and election results, plus the usual social media of course) to satisfy sigcov, hence fails WP:GNG / WP:POLITICIAN. -- DoubleGrazing ( talk) 06:48, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. DoubleGrazing ( talk) 06:48, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. DoubleGrazing ( talk) 06:48, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. DoubleGrazing ( talk) 06:48, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New York-related deletion discussions. DoubleGrazing ( talk) 06:48, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
- Delete per nom's rationale. Best Alexandermcnabb ( talk) 09:25, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
- Keep. Eric Dinowitz is a sitting member of the New York City Council whose council members have long had Wikipedia articles without issue. I think throwing in an NYC Councilman as "local politician," is not a correct interpretation of the rules.-- Mpen320 ( talk) 00:58, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
- Keep and flag for improvement. This is definitely in dire need of improvement — namely, it has to be referenced to media coverage, not just to Ballotpedia and his own self-published website about himself — but New York City is very much one of the internationally prominent global cities where we absolutely do accept the city council as a notable political office. Bearcat ( talk) 03:44, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
- Bearcat where in WP:NPOL does it say that there is an exception for local politicians in NYC or other global cities? -- hroest 14:38, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
- WP:POLOUTCOMES specifies that we keep city councillors in internationally prominent global cities. ‹The template Category link is being considered for merging.› Category:New York City Council members has over 300 articles on past or present New York City councillors, and even just the membership list in New York City Council reveals that every single other incumbent NYC councillor has an article with the isolated exceptions of a couple who were also just newly elected in March (which means their articles just haven't been started yet, not that they're barred from ever having articles on notability grounds). Chicago, Los Angeles, San Francisco and Toronto, same story: every single incumbent city councillor has an article without exception (although obviously some historical councillors from 50 or 100 years ago have been overlooked). NPOL doesn't have to explicitly reconfirm what POLOUTCOMES already says, especially when what POLOUTCOMES already says is easily backed up by evidence. Bearcat ( talk) 14:48, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
- Comment I don't see anything in WP:NPOL that says an exception to the rule is to be made for prominent cities, let alone just for NYC. The guideline says "Just being an elected local official [...] does not guarantee notability, although such people can still be notable if they meet the general notability guideline." City politicians are by definition local. I don't see GNG being satisfied. And to say that other NYC politicians may have articles is merely the WP:OSE argument. -- DoubleGrazing ( talk) 06:10, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
- WP:NPOL doesn't have to say it if WP:POLOUTCOMES does. Bearcat ( talk) 14:39, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
- Delete he got 5000 votes, so he is representing about as many people as a small town mayor. Also, no SIGCOV here, so I agree with DoubleGrazing. It clearly specifies Politicians and judges who have held international, national, or (for countries with federal or similar systems of government) state/province–wide office, or Major local political figures who have received significant press coverage. both of which he fails. -- hroest 14:38, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
- NPOL is not a question of how many individual votes the person did or didn't get in the process of being elected to a political office — it's a question of whether the body that the person was elected to is a notable one or not, and has nothing to do with how many votes it did or didn't take to get elected to it.
Bearcat (
talk)
14:56, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
- Exactly, that is why it states Politicians and judges who have held international, national, or (for countries with federal or similar systems of government) state/province–wide office, I hope you are not claiming that the NYC city council is a national or international office he got elected to? --
hroest
15:15, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
- That's NPOL #1, not NPOL #2. NPOL #2 pertains to municipal politicians not covered by NPOL #1, and NPOL #2 is expanded upon in more depth at
WP:POLOUTCOMES due to its vagueness and tendency to be interpreted differently by different readers — and POLOUTCOMES explicitly says that while city councillors are not automatically deemed notable in all cities, city councillors are deemed notable in internationally prominent global cities such as New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, Toronto and London.
Bearcat (
talk)
15:21, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
- Hmm I see, thanks for bringing this up. I also see the point of having an article on each member of the council and not having some missing. I need to think about this some more. However, the outcome guidelines are just guidelines and also state precedent has tended to favor keeping members of the main citywide government of internationally famous metropolitan areas such as Toronto, Chicago, Tokyo, or London., where tended to favor is not the same as saying it makes them automatically notable. Also I think we would still need coverage from WP:RS and not his campaign webpage. -- hroest 16:17, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
- That's NPOL #1, not NPOL #2. NPOL #2 pertains to municipal politicians not covered by NPOL #1, and NPOL #2 is expanded upon in more depth at
WP:POLOUTCOMES due to its vagueness and tendency to be interpreted differently by different readers — and POLOUTCOMES explicitly says that while city councillors are not automatically deemed notable in all cities, city councillors are deemed notable in internationally prominent global cities such as New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, Toronto and London.
Bearcat (
talk)
15:21, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
- Exactly, that is why it states Politicians and judges who have held international, national, or (for countries with federal or similar systems of government) state/province–wide office, I hope you are not claiming that the NYC city council is a national or international office he got elected to? --
hroest
15:15, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
- NPOL is not a question of how many individual votes the person did or didn't get in the process of being elected to a political office — it's a question of whether the body that the person was elected to is a notable one or not, and has nothing to do with how many votes it did or didn't take to get elected to it.
Bearcat (
talk)
14:56, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
- Comment Not voting either way - I'm not sure GNG is satisfied, but it could be, and I'm not going to do the work to check on this one, at least not right now. I just don't completely agree with the "major city exception" to WP:NPOL - I'd like to make sure WP:GNG is met here. SportingFlyer T· C 20:24, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
- Note I have gone ahead and cited more references, from both national and regional news sources, to satisfy
WP:RS, as well as added a section about Dinowitz's presence within music to potentially satisfy
WP:GNG. I do agree with
Bearcat's statement on notability, as there are hundreds of articles on past and present New York City Councilors which have been fine, including predecessors within the 11th Council District, so I wouldn't see any exception to be made to this one. -
BriLila (
talk)
00:48, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
- Comment Again,
WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a valid reason in and of itself. --
DoubleGrazing (
talk)
06:03, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
- I have to add that WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is an essay, and not a policy and guideline. Though based on the guideline of WP:POLITICIAN, there is no reason to keep this article. SunDawn ( talk) 02:21, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
- Comment Again,
WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a valid reason in and of itself. --
DoubleGrazing (
talk)
06:03, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Kichu🐘 Need any help? 00:51, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Kichu🐘 Need any help? 00:51, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
- Delete per WP:POLITICIAN as a city-level politician he is not inherently notable. New York City, while a very famous city, remains a "city" and should not have more inherent notability than other cities, except for some circumstances. SunDawn ( talk) 02:25, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
- Keep I don't believe that "local politician" is a correct interpretation of the guidelines of Wikipedia:POLITICIAN in these circumstances. New York City council members represent 150,000 people, while it could be in a "local" area, it is still a very large amount of people where I feel the office should not be excluded from being notable. Also, I feel that OSE is a valid argument in the case of inherent notability. There are New York City Council members, past and present, who have articles without any issue. I don't believe this page should be excluded from other New York City council members for this reason. - BriLila ( talk) 20:55, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
- Keep as a member of the New York City Council the subject passes WP:NPOL. -- Enos733 ( talk) 16:39, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
- Keep Member of the city council of the country's largest city. KidAd • SPEAK 20:31, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Randykitty ( talk) 09:25, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Randykitty ( talk) 09:25, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
- Delete Does not meet notability requirements. Nweil ( talk) 21:51, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I'm leaning towards keep or no consensus. Any other thoughts?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Missvain ( talk) 23:59, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
Relisting comment: I'm leaning towards keep or no consensus. Any other thoughts?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Missvain ( talk) 23:59, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.