The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Weak delete She's certainly very accomplished for someone who only just completed her PhD. But it's another step from there to "requires an encyclopedia article", and it doesn't look like there's sufficient coverage to indicate quite the needed notability either as an artist or a scientist. (If she keeps up this clip we'll have the article in three years though...) --Elmidae (
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18:18, 1 May 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Elmidae: Along with a considerable amount evidence of notability by separate criteria, it has emerged that they are a co-author of a book reviewed by a notable paleontologist, see below. ~
cygnis insignis08:33, 3 May 2021 (UTC)reply
However the only mention of her in that review are the four words "wonderful illustrations by Emily Willoughby", and the title of her chapter. The review does cover the work of the other contributor's chapters, but it does not cover Willoughby's work in depth; therefore it is not SIGCOV. This is analogous to an artist being in a group exhibition and a review in an art magazine covering the work of four of the artists in an in-depth analysis, but only name checks another artist. That review would not cound towards notability. What is needed are in-depth reviews of her work. It is
WP:TOOSOON, perhaps in a few years there will be enough to support an article.
Netherzone (
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14:59, 3 May 2021 (UTC)reply
The first mention by
Darren Naish is second author in the citation, then stating, "So much media coverage and so much apparent interest was generated by this event that – so Kane and co-author Emily Willoughby realised – clear and comprehensive response was warranted.". I'm seeing at lot of downplaying of achievements here and fancy that one ip [accused of being a SPA] is probably not far wrong, there is a glass ceiling to inclusion. ~
cygnis insignis16:37, 3 May 2021 (UTC)reply
Cygnis insignis, I truly hope you or the IP are not implying that I or any of the participants here are speaking of out sexism or bias. 75% of the biographic articles I have created are on women, and have also created articles on women's topics. Re: your SPA comment, if an anonymous editor has made only one edit ever (which was to this AfD), and the other editor made only total 4 edits (3 of which are on Willoughby), then they have "made few or no edits outside of this topic."
Netherzone (
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17:24, 3 May 2021 (UTC)reply
I am implying there is structural bias on wikipedia, it makes me tetchy. I am also the noting accusation of an ip being a SPA being made in the edit summary, pretty sure that is not okay but correct me if that sort of thing doesn't need to be discussed at the appropriate noticeboard. I'm not wishing to downplay the achievements of Netherzone, and happy to get meta somewhere else if they are concerned by my comments, but point out the civil thing on this page is addressing the substance of discussion and not make accusations as deflection. On that: one ip also supplied a link to NPR, after the insistence there is no evidence being placed under the noses of opposers, a request to discuss that has been ignored for a second time now with a claim to, what, credentials in unbiasness? ~
cygnis insignis18:39, 3 May 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep as per the google results above the author is frequently cited for their works, which is 'art' based on a lot of science; Willoughby is regarded as a scientist and artist for these reconstructions and attempting to determine the subject's notability by the criteria of one or the other professions is misleading. Their works are cited at that google search on 'artist' in an extract "By the 21st century, digital art appeared and feathered dinosaurs and mammals were being reconstructed by various artists (e.g., Raven Amos, Karen Carr, Emily Willoughby, Carol Abraczinskas, and Luci BettiNash), Rebels, Scholars, Explorers: Women in Vertebrate Paleontology", I didn't have to dig any deeper than that. ~
cygnis insignis07:42, 2 May 2021 (UTC)reply
I don't think it is a 'passing mention', it strongly indicates notability in their opinion and that other sources in that google will support that. Notable also as a pioneer of digital paleo-art it seems. Is that source no good? ~
cygnis insignis15:48, 2 May 2021 (UTC)reply
Cygnis insignis, it is a passing mention, to pass NARTIST we need multiple independent reviews of her work, a track record of exhibitions in notable galleries or museums, works held in verifiable museum collections, etc. A name check in a book or simply publishing illustrations in books (or self-published books) is not enough to meet the criteria.
Netherzone (
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16:11, 2 May 2021 (UTC)reply
"
Paleoart is any original artistic work that attempts to depict prehistoric life according to
scientific evidence." The works here are said to be digital, but in any case they have been produced with the intention of being published in one form or another as scientific information. Having them 'exhibited' is not usually the purpose, the work is probably a file and printing instructions. If they satisfy the often stringent requirements of the publisher and their scientist colleagues that is the measure of their success, mentioning someone as an example of that is not done lightly. ~
cygnis insignis16:59, 2 May 2021 (UTC)reply
While getting one's art published is clearly a certain bar to pass, the notability guidelines for writing an encyclopedic article about a subject are higher than simply getting work published. As Netherzone mentions, multiple independent reviews are required with exhibitions in notable galleries etc. This is independent of whether it is digital or non-digital art or literature. We also do not write article about authors simply because they get published but because their work gets critically reviewed and discussed. See
WP:NARTIST and
WP:GNG for the guidelines. --
hroest17:12, 2 May 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep - as an artist, she has certainly had an impact in recent years (and has been widely cited as such), which would be the case whether she was also a scientist or not.
FunkMonk (
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11:57, 2 May 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep -- PLEASE keep in mind that Wikipedia has a persistent problem with sexism and with undervaluing the contributions of female scientists. They remain underrepresented on Wiki.
Someone on the internet reckons the Willoughby's illustrations are "
wonderful", but that blog may just be bias against the topic of the book: Kane, J., Willoughby, E. & Keesey, T. M. 2016. God’s Word or Human Reason? An Inside Perspective on Creationism. Inkwater Press, pp. 389. ISBN 2370000384812. ~
cygnis insignis20:17, 2 May 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete there is no notability here. The article was quite deceptively written; I have toned down some of its inflations of her accomplishments. Now, for notability, firstly, does she meet NPROF? Probably not seeing as the article says she just got her PhD in 2021. In fact, a little googling says she is still a PhD candidate, so it is goign to be hard to meet NPROF in a temporary postdoc position the same year you get your doctorate. What is the article's stated best research accomplishment? That she wrote two student papers that got awards from an organization that she now sits on the board of. Second, does she meet NARTIST? I do not see any shows, collections, reviews or other customary accomplishments, so no. Third, NAUTHOR? same story, although this is the area where she has perhaps the most professional accomplishment. Finally, GNG? Well, there would have to be significant independent coverage, rather than hyped statements of accomplishment cobbled together and supported by trivial coverage. So, no. ---
Possibly (
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04:27, 4 May 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep I don't think anyone is arguing that she has established herself as an influential scientist or author, but as an artist she has established herself as quite an influential figure in the paleoart community. The problem here is that paleoart is a niche field which rarely receives any kind of literary discussion like other forms of art, and Willoughby herself has been on the scene for less than a decade. Paleoart is a type of functional art, not necessarily something designed for exhibitions, collectors, or magazine critics. She received the fifth highest number of votes as an influence in David Orr's 2017 survey of paleoartists, higher than
Charles Knight and
James Gurney. And on the 2019 survey, she received the second highest number of votes, behind only
Mark Witton.
[1] Admittedly I'm not sure how Wikipedia would deal with a blog-hosted survey from a reliable source perspective, but the process appeared to be transparent, methodical, and protected against manipulation. Her art has been featured heavily in Mark Witton (2018)'s "The Paleoartist's Handbook" and she has a whole chapter in Steve White (2017)'s "Dinosaur Art II", two prominent and fairly successful books discussing modern paleoart, its current major figures, and its influence on pop culture. She seems to fit the check marks of
WP:ARTIST. Also, I see no reason why she in particular is being excluded, the original proposal for deletion did not even mention NARTIST, which is by far the most relevant category here.
Fanboyphilosopher (
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02:40, 5 May 2021 (UTC)reply
That survey obviously skews towards younger, amateur paleoartists, particularly the 2019 survey. I don't see how Joschua Knüppe or Willoughby are more influential than Gregory S Paul, which they both outrank by mentions in the 2019 survey, so I don't think it holds much weight. As for the books, having an entire chapter sounds like SIGCOV, as for Witton's Book, what does "featured heavily" mean. Is the work critically analysed in any respect?
Hemiauchenia (
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03:03, 5 May 2021 (UTC)reply
There are several things to keep in mind. One, most paleoartists are young, since it is a rapidly growing and niche genre. So the aforementioned artists may indeed be a personal influence for most paleoartists much more than classic paleoartists. Two, paleoart simply is not discussed by art critics, so relative notability has to be gleaned from art books such as DA and DAII. This problem is inherent to all paleoartists who have been working since ~2000, so once again I see no reason why specifically Willoughby's article is being nominated for deletion. In fact, if you sort through most of the post-dinosaur renaissance paleoartists on
Paleoart, you will find that their sources are almost always surveys, art books, and news articles (akin to the Orr survey, DAII, and NPR talk with Willoughby). She is not an outlier in regards to paleoartist articles.
Fanboyphilosopher (
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14:13, 5 May 2021 (UTC)reply
Thank you for pointing out that there are other paleoartist who do not appear to merit wikipedia articles, I have marked Mark P. Witton for notability and I will nominate it for deletion in due course if more citations are not added. Both Charles Knight, James Gurney, and Gregory S. Paul pass WP:GNG. Joschua Knüppe does not appear to have a page. If there are other pages that aren’t up to snuff in this space please point them out.
Horse Eye's Back (
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14:52, 5 May 2021 (UTC)reply
Witton is probably one of the most influential paleoartists currently active, and even discounting that, his paleontological work has been popularized modern view on the morphology and behavior of
azhdarchids and other pterosaurs (he basically wrote the most successful pterosaur book since 1991),
[2] which show up in all sorts of independent media today. I was not meaning to mark paleoartists in general for deletion, I was simply meaning to note how paleoart must be considered by different guidelines and merits relative to exhibition art. The current guidelines are a bit biased towards the "art for the sake of art" form of the term, which would automatically (and in my opinion, unfairly) reject many influential scientific illustrators. By the standards used to evaluate paleoart, all of these artists would pass NOTARTIST with flying colors.
Fanboyphilosopher (
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15:08, 5 May 2021 (UTC)reply
"By the standards used to evaluate paleoart, all of these artists would pass NOTARTIST with flying colors.” what standards are those exactly? I’ve just been through the "Modern (post–Dinosaur Renaissance) paleoartists” section and the vast majority of those featured do not pass WP:GNG or WP:NARTIST. Please specify what about paleoart makes it different from all other art.
Horse Eye's Back (
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15:23, 5 May 2021 (UTC)reply
I also want to be very clear that we’re looking at >20 deletion nominations, this appears to be a serious problem that needs a serious remedy. Dismissing the issue by claiming prejudice in the art world is inappropriate.
Horse Eye's Back (
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15:27, 5 May 2021 (UTC)reply
I agree with HEB that some of them, such as Nobu Tamura, are definitely not notable, but I think Mark Witton probably passes NAUTHOR.
Hemiauchenia (
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15:41, 5 May 2021 (UTC)reply
Agreed, I regret even bringing up everyone else. I see absolutely no reason why Wikipedia's notability guidelines should be misused to delete the article of every scientific illustrator or paleoartist who has not formally been critiqued by independent sources. By any other standard these people are very influential in the scene.
Fanboyphilosopher (
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16:43, 5 May 2021 (UTC)reply
They are often critiqued by peers who are scientists, publishers wanting profit in a highly competitive market, and unlike most artists the very real potential of being demonstrably wrong, all that can be verified by different means, as you point out, and has already been provided in this discussion. ~
cygnis insignis17:19, 5 May 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep While I admit that there aren't a lot of sources here meeting notability guidelines, I think we should err on the side of inclusion in borderline cases like this. Anecdotally I can attest that Dr. Willoughby is considered a significant figure within the paleoart community, as has been mentioned above. While I haven't listened to the NPR profile of her or read Dinosaur Art II, they certainly sound like they qualify as independent reliable secondary sources based on what others have said here.
Here's a profile of her in local news, if that helps. While most of the sources currently listed in this article don't meet GNG, at least those three seem like they do.
Ornithopsis (
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23:46, 5 May 2021 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.