- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Spartaz Humbug! 18:05, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
- Ellsworth Jones ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
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small-town mayor, fails WP:POLITICIAN, also served in World War 2 but doesn't meet WP:SOLDIER, all sources are from the local newspaper (which to be clear is NOT significant coverage in multiple sources). Rusf10 ( talk) 23:53, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Baby miss fortune 03:29, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. Baby miss fortune 03:29, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New York-related deletion discussions. Baby miss fortune 03:29, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- Delete Non-notable local politician who fails to meet political notability guidelines or general notability guidelines. Very minimal reliable source coverage. PohranicniStraze ( talk) 21:07, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- Keep. Being a Mayor is very notable in itself. Plus, less than 0.0001% of the world ever achieve this. I hope the administrators can see past the bias (conscious or subconscious) that appears in many "delete" comments about politicians on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WikiLuke1980 ( talk • contribs) 22:31, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
- All mayors certainly are not notable, that's why we have WP:POLITICIAN guidelines.-- Rusf10 ( talk) 22:40, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
- As Rusf10 said, mayors are not automatically notable. Per
notability guidelines for politicians: Just being an elected local official, or an unelected candidate for political office, does not guarantee notability, although such people can still be notable if they meet the primary notability criterion of "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject of the article". There are certainly exceptions; mayors of major cities like NYC, Tokyo, or London almost certainly meet notability requirements, but from
WP:POLOUTCOMES: Mayors of smaller towns, however, are generally deemed not notable just for being mayors.
PohranicniStraze (
talk)
00:18, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
- Notability of a mayor is irrelevant for a deletion forum, since notability is never a policy-based determinant for deletion of a mayor, see [[WP:IGNORINGATD}]. Note also that WP:N is a guideline, not a policy.
Unscintillating (
talk)
17:09, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
- Hate to tell you but
WP:IGNORINGATD is part of an essay which is neither a policy nor a guideline. If notability is irrelevant for a mayor, I guess that's the case for everything else too, deleting anything must be against policy.--
Rusf10 (
talk)
17:16, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
-
WP:ATD is a policy and
WP:IGNORINGATD is "an explanatory supplement to Wikipedia:Deletion policy." So for starters, the premise here is at least erroneous. Even if
WP:IGNORINGATD were an essay, the post has shown no elements of
WP:IGNORINGATD that do not represent policy, so the "essay" comment is baseless misdirection. The post continues with
WP:OSE hyperbole that policy based treatment under ATD of mayors is the equivalent of non-policy based treatment of other topics considered under
WP:Deletion policy. The topic here is a mayor, not OSE topics outside the scope of ATD. As for the hyperbole, as stated at
hyperbole, "Hyperbole may...be used for...exaggerations for...effect." "The use of hyperboles generally relays feelings or emotions from the speaker".
Unscintillating (
talk)
19:58, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
- At the top of WP:AADD (which contains WP:IGNORINGATD) "This page is not one of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines, as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community.". If you want to dismiss someone's argument for citing a guideline (the widely accepted WP:N guideline), why don't you hold yourself to the same standard??? You can't cite [[WP:OSE] either, for the same reason. The only policy you actually cited is WP:ATD, which you have a really bizarre interpretation of (ie. nothing can be deleted).-- Rusf10 ( talk) 21:45, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
-
WP:ATD is a policy and
WP:IGNORINGATD is "an explanatory supplement to Wikipedia:Deletion policy." So for starters, the premise here is at least erroneous. Even if
WP:IGNORINGATD were an essay, the post has shown no elements of
WP:IGNORINGATD that do not represent policy, so the "essay" comment is baseless misdirection. The post continues with
WP:OSE hyperbole that policy based treatment under ATD of mayors is the equivalent of non-policy based treatment of other topics considered under
WP:Deletion policy. The topic here is a mayor, not OSE topics outside the scope of ATD. As for the hyperbole, as stated at
hyperbole, "Hyperbole may...be used for...exaggerations for...effect." "The use of hyperboles generally relays feelings or emotions from the speaker".
Unscintillating (
talk)
19:58, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
- Hate to tell you but
WP:IGNORINGATD is part of an essay which is neither a policy nor a guideline. If notability is irrelevant for a mayor, I guess that's the case for everything else too, deleting anything must be against policy.--
Rusf10 (
talk)
17:16, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
- Notability of a mayor is irrelevant for a deletion forum, since notability is never a policy-based determinant for deletion of a mayor, see [[WP:IGNORINGATD}]. Note also that WP:N is a guideline, not a policy.
Unscintillating (
talk)
17:09, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
- Keep. I a seeing enough references from reliable sources for a standalone article. There is no ban on using local sourcing. -- RAN ( talk) 03:04, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Redirect to List of mayors of Saratoga Springs, New York, where he already has a listing with significant biographical information. He is a small-town mayor (population 26,000) who has achieved no wider notability. Virtually all of the sourcing is to a single local source, the The Post-Star (with a single item from the even more local Glen Falls Times). IMO he does not meet GNG and does not qualify for a standalone article. -- MelanieN ( talk) 01:18, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Keep I looked at the Glen Falls Times article, and this is exactly the in-depth significant coverage we look for to support GNG. I also looked at the Post-Star "Outgoing Spa mayor gives parting views" article, and the byline is "Associated Press". Again, this is in-depth significant material, such as, "Failure to consolidate some of the commissioners' powers into a city manager's office tops Jones' list of disappointments [in ten years] as mayor." This is all coverage that predates the internet. The volume and quality of the material here is suitable to a standalone article. Unscintillating ( talk) 02:19, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Delete the localized coverage is not enough to show notability. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 06:11, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent
reliable sources.
- Yusko, Dennis (2007-08-15).
"A sign of respect, gratitude - Ellsworth Jones, former Saratoga Springs mayor and war hero, honored".
Times Union. Archived from
the original on 2018-01-16. Retrieved 2018-01-16.
The article notes:
Oh, the irony. It took former Republican Mayor Ellsworth Jones to bring the city's ruling Democrats together.
Mayor Valerie Keehn and Public Works Commissioner Thomas McTygue, two Democrats who have been at loggerheads and are up for re-election, recently honored the late mayor and Army war hero by renaming Grove Street "Ellsworth Jones Place."
...
Ellsworth Jones was a five-term mayor who served from 1980 to 1990. He died from complications of Alzheimer's disease at the age of 88 on New Year's Eve, 2006.
...
Jones founded the Hayes Tobacco Company in 1951 and operated it until he sold it in 1977. He was a man of principle, who in 1983 was denied an endorsement from the city Republican Committee largely because of his opposition to the city's commission form of government. He ran on the Independent line and won.
- Post, Paul (2011-05-17).
"One man's life of service: Former Mayor Ellsworth Jones honored as Deceased Veteran of the Month by Saratoga County Board of Supervisors".
The Saratogian. Archived from
the original on 2018-01-16. Retrieved 2018-01-16.
The article notes:
A Greatest Generation hero and popular Spa City mayor was honored Tuesday for his service to country, community and love of family.
Ellsworth Jones (1918-2006), an Army paratrooper, was one of the first Americans to land in Normandy during the D-Day invasion, was later wounded and awarded a Purple Heart and Bronze Star.
During his 10 years as mayor of Saratoga Springs, from 1980 to 1990, he was a driving force behind the creation of the City Center, one of the major elements of downtown revitalization.
...
U.S. Rep. Chris Gibson's office gave the Jones family a flag that's flown over the U.S. Capitol and Corsale presented a Presidential Memorial Certificate signed by President Barack Obama.
- Kinney, Jim (2007-01-02).
"Five-term city mayor dies at 88".
The Saratogian. Archived from
the original on 2018-01-16. Retrieved 2018-01-16.
The article notes:
Ellsworth Jones led a platoon of paratroopers into France before dawn on D-Day. Decades later, he led Saratoga Springs as its mayor during the 1980s.
Jones died New Year's Eve, Sun¬day night. He was 88.
He had suffered from Alzheimer's disease for more than a year, Jones' son Matthew Jones said.
- Crowe II, Kenneth C. (2005-12-08).
"Online Hall of Fame cites service in war and peace - Former mayor of Saratoga Springs among first inductees to state Senate's honor roll".
Times Union. Archived from
the original on 2018-01-16. Retrieved 2018-01-16.
The article notes:
Ellsworth Jones jumped into combat on D-Day in 1944, dropping into France as a platoon commander with the 101st Airborne Division.
A five-term mayor of the Spa City and a business owner, the 87-year-old Jones doesn't talk about his experiences in Normandy where he was wounded. He still carries near his heart the shrapnel that knocked him out of the war.
On Wednesday, the 64th anniversary of the attack on Pearl Harbor, Jones was inducted into the virtual New York State Senate Veterans Hall of Fame.
- Williams, Stephen (2011-06-02).
"Our Military: Ellsworth Jones, a wounded veteran of World War II, honored at Saratoga County ceremony (with photo gallery)".
The Daily Gazette. Archived from
the original on 2018-01-16. Retrieved 2018-01-16.
The article notes:
First Lt. Ellsworth J. Jones was among the first Americans to land in France on D-Day, parachuting in behind German lines during the night to take out artillery in the hours before the great invasion.
After intense combat, the 26-year-old paratrooper took a piece of shrapnel near his heart on the fifth day after D-Day, and it stayed there until his death 62 years later in Saratoga Springs.
In between getting wounded on June 11, 1944, and his death in late December 2006, Ellsworth Jones commanded a prisoner of war camp, ran a successful Saratoga tobacco business, raised four children with his wife, and served a decade as the mayor of Saratoga Springs.
...
Ellsworth Jones, who lived to within one week of his 89th birthday, was honored as Saratoga County’s Deceased Veteran of the Month in May. Several dozen people attended the ceremony in the county board meeting rooms.
- Crowe II, Kenneth C. (2007-01-03).
"Former mayor's service recalled - Ellsworth Jones, a D-Day veteran who championed Saratoga Springs development, dies at 88".
Times Union. Archived from
the original on 2018-01-16. Retrieved 2018-01-16.
The article notes:
Former mayor Ellsworth Jones, who fought with the 101st Airborne at Normandy and championed the construction of the Saratoga Springs City Center as a way to revitalize downtown, died Sunday night at Wesley Health Care Center, his family said Tuesday afternoon. He was 88.
Jones, a Republican, served five terms as mayor. He died from complications of Alzheimer's disease, family members said.
...
Jones received the Bronze Star and the Purple Heart. He also served during the Korean War.
- Yu, Winifred (1989-05-01).
"SPA Mayor Insists He's Ordinary. Decades In Office Ends In Retirement".
Times Union. Archived from
the original on 2018-01-16. Retrieved 2018-01-16.
The article notes:
He's danced with Ginger Rogers and dined with Ronald Reagan. And during the city's celebrated horse-racing season in August, he's a guest at the most elegant black-tie affairs.
But Mayor Ellsworth Jones says of himself and his family, "We are very ordinary. We have a little house, with three bedrooms, a living room, dining room and a one-car garage. One car sits outside."
...
Having spent the last decade as mayor, Jones is known by just about everyone in Saratoga Springs. When he retires at the end of 1989, he will have held the city's second longest tenure as mayor. Only Addison Mallery, who held the reins from 1936 to 1959, will have been there longer.
Through the years, Jones spearheaded several projects that changed the face of the city. The downtown development projects he cites among his successes include the Ramada Renaissance and the City Center convention hall.
- Yu, Winifred (1989-04-18).
"Mayor Jones Bars Bid For A 6th Term at SPA".
Times Union. Archived from
the original on 2018-01-16. Retrieved 2018-01-16.
The article notes:
After nearly 10 years at the helm of this city renowned for its horse racing and mineral water, Mayor Ellsworth Jones announced Monday that he would not seek a sixth term.
...
Through the years, Jones has spearheaded several projects that have changed the face of the city. Among those he talked about Monday were the Ramada Renaissance Hotel and the City Center convention hall. The Ramada recently agreed to give the city $130,000 toward the improvement of the municipal parking lot on the High Rock Parcel on Maple Avenue, another project Jones cited among his accomplishments.
In addition, Jones said, he has succeeded in keeping property taxes stable for the past decade. Since 1979, he said, when the city's residents experienced a 27 percent increase in property taxes, property taxes have basically remained the same. That stems in part, he said, from the arrival of new industries, Jones said, including the printing company, Quadgraphics.
- Yusko, Dennis (2007-08-15).
"A sign of respect, gratitude - Ellsworth Jones, former Saratoga Springs mayor and war hero, honored".
Times Union. Archived from
the original on 2018-01-16. Retrieved 2018-01-16.
- The sources listed in the Wikipedia article are:
- Ellsworth J. Jones
- Ellsworth J. Jones, Sr. The Post Star (Glens Falls, New York) 13 Sep 1971, page 24, accessed December 27, 2017 at https://www.newspapers.com/clip/16039571/ellsworth_j_jones_sr_the_post_star/
- Ellsworth J. Jones, The Post Star (Glens Falls, New York) 3 Jan 2007, page 10, accessed December 27 2017 at https://www.newspapers.com/clip/16039634/ellsworth_j_jones_the_post_star/
- Ellsworth Jones to Leave Position with Urban Renewal Unit. The Glens Falls Times (Glens Falls, New York) 30, Apr 1969, page 19, accessed December 27, 2017 at https://www.newspapers.com/clip/16040720/
- Fiegl, Charles. Ellsworth Jones Dies, The Post-Star (Glens Falls, New York) 3 Jan 2007, page 1, 5, accessed December 27, 2017 at https://www.newspapers.com/clip/16039959/fiegl_charles_ellsworth_jones_dies/ and https://www.newspapers.com/clip/16039983/fiegl_charles_ellsworth_jones_dies/
- Branch, Sally. The Gamble That Paid Off, The Post Star (Glens Falls, New York) 27, Mar 2003, page 16, accessed December 27, 2017 at https://www.newspapers.com/clip/16040815/
- Outgoing Spa Mayor Gives Parting Views, The Post-Star (Glens Falls, New York) 5 Nov 1989, page 12, accessed December 27, 2017 at https://www.newspapers.com/clip/16040540/outgoing_spa_mayor_gives_parting_views/
- Summary of sources:
The articles were published over the span of decades in the years 1969, 1971, 1989, 2003, 2005, 2007, and 2011.
The regional newspaper Times Union published multiple sources about Ellsworth Jones' career, death, and legacy. The newspapers The Post-Star, The Daily Gazette, and The Saratogian also provide significant coverage about the subject.
He passes Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline.
There is enough material for a standalone article, and a merge of all the content to List of mayors of Saratoga Springs, New York would be undue weight, so I do not support a redirect to List of mayors of Saratoga Springs, New York.
- Pinging Smmurphy ( talk · contribs), who removed the prod and made substantial contributions to the article.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 09:43, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Comment - I think this subject has received significant coverage in sources independent of the subject and does not violate the notability guideline, any of the other reasons for deletion, or any of the core content policies. Smmurphy( Talk) 15:23, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Keep - Mayor Jones has received significant coverage, which does not violate notability. Scanlan ( talk) 23:59, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Keep Cunard has provided sources to demonstrate significant coverage in independent, reliable sources. That clears WP:GNG. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 00:20, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.