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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 02:34, 10 February 2016 (UTC) reply

Electrical Impedance Tomography Reconstruction Software

Note
Article has been renamed Electrical Impedance and Diffuse Optical Tomography Reconstruction Software
Electrical Impedance Tomography Reconstruction Software (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
(Find sources:  Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
(Find sources:  Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
(Find sources:  Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Non-notable software. References all seem to be papers announcing or promoting the software, written by its creators. No third party references or sources, and a search turns up none. JohnBlackburne words deeds 01:47, 27 January 2016 (UTC) reply

The lack of references is probably as the title is wrong, if the article is about EIDORS specifically It was EIDORS but the title was changed. However it is certainly widely used. This paper has over 200 citations for example [1] This one over 100 (according to Google Scholar [2]. Is that enough to be notable or not? Most groups working on biomedical or process EIT use it, but those are small scientific communities (with annual scientific meetings attended by around 150 people for example). Billlion ( talk) 08:06, 27 January 2016 (UTC) reply
A Google Scholar search for EIDORS gives over 600 articles [3] Billlion ( talk) 08:16, 27 January 2016 (UTC) reply
The citation count is used for academics, not software projects, and even for academics it should be used with care. In this case it may be helpful in finding references but does not on its own prove notability, no more than a Google search. I did search on EIDORS, it seemed far more likely to turn up references than the current longer title, but I found nothing.-- JohnBlackburne words deeds 08:58, 27 January 2016 (UTC) reply
Of course it is true that a citation count is an academic measure. However, it is relevant to the question on notability. Widely used software is notable. And a large citation count is one measure of the use of the software. Also, however, the title of the article is wrong, EIDORS is "Electrical Impedance Tomography and Diffuse Optical Tomography Reconstruction Software". As a minimum, the article title should be corrected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.117.63.148 ( talk) 14:32, 27 January 2016 (UTC) reply
JohnBlackburne I am confused as to what the Google search you did that did not convince you of notability. Of course Google will not give the same results for different locations and users, but I did a Google search for EIDORS and it comes up with a mixture of academic publications (by plenty of people who are not the authors of the software) and web sites from academic users. It says it returns around 8000 hits and the ones I sampled were all on this software (not some other use of the word). I am unclear what kind of notability you are expecting to find in a google search about a software toolbox. Here is a link to the search I just did, although it might produce different results for you [4]. You claim that there are "No third party references or sources" but you already admit that is not true as there are hundreds of academic papers not by the authors that mention that they used EIDORS. Then you change your claim to somehow say academic citations do not count. Do you mean some other sort of notoriety is needed like coverage in the popular press? You say a search turns up none, but certainly a Google search contradicts that. Can I suggest that the case for deletion is withdrawn and instead it is moved back to the correct articlename? And maybe tagged for improvement for example that the article should cite articles by users other than the authors (in a meaningful way to say how it is used in different applications). Billlion ( talk) 14:44, 27 January 2016 (UTC) reply
See Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions#Google test; a Google or other search proves nothing. The way Google works means it turns up many low quality results, many duplicates, and often many unrelated results if words are common or used in other languages/fields. The main criteria for inclusion is notablity, which requires “significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject”. Google may help you find such sources but the search itself is not evidence.-- JohnBlackburne words deeds 03:43, 28 January 2016 (UTC) reply
OK JohnBlackburne so as you say lets us discount your and my Google search. Not repeatable and somewhat flawed. Useful at least to find that EIDORS does not seem to be used to mean anything else taht is visible on the web. Could you please have a look at the new references I added to the article and the paragraph about uses of EIDORS. I looked for references that seemed to me to be in reputable academic journals, that used EIDORS for a wide variety of different applications and as far as I could tell were not associated with the authors of EIDORS (although EIDORS is open source so anyone who uses it could contribute bug fixes etc, possibly anonymously, I mean the authors that appear on the main academic articles about the software). The 600 or so Google Scholar hits include plenty of conference proceedings etc so I looked for what appear to be mainstream journal articles. I also looked at the (approx 99) citations listed on the IoP web site of one of the main papers by the EIDORS authors. There are still over a hundred journal papers that mention EIDORS in proper journal not including anyone visibly associated with the project. I chose the ones I added as references in the article to illustrate interesting applications rather than simply to establish notability. As far as I can tell these articles actually use the software in a significant way rather than citing it is some tangential way (for example to to say "we tried EIDORS and it doesn't work", or something like that). Can you see if that satisfies as you say which requires “significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject”. If not can you say roughly how many references to independent journal articles would satisfy of notability, or if you would expect them to satisfy some additional criterion? Billlion ( talk) 18:04, 28 January 2016 (UTC) reply
I had another look at WP:GNG "The absence of sources or citations in an article (as distinct from the non-existence of sources) does not indicate that a subject is not notable. Notability requires only the existence of suitable independent, reliable sources, not their immediate presence or citation in an article. Editors evaluating notability should consider not only any sources currently named in an article, but also the possibility or existence of notability-indicating sources that are not currently named in the article. Thus, before proposing or nominating an article or deletion, or offering an opinion based on notability in a deletion discussion, editors are strongly encouraged to attempt to find sources for the subject in question and consider the possibility of existent sources if none can be found by a search." So perhaps I was wrong to add all those sources to the article to establish notability. In any case I tried to do it in a way that is useful for the article so that is OK. The point is that according to the above one should check before nomination for deletion on notability grounds. I think what happened is you tried to do that but in good faith used the wrong title (and the title had been changed in good faith too), and you found no evidence for notability. On the other hand I pointed out that if you searched for EIDORS (and the search for EIDORS in Google Scholar appear, for me at least as an automated link in the AFD page) it shows up hundreds of independent reliable sources. I suggest therefore that the nomination for deletion is an unfortunate mistake and that you withdraw it (if that is possible procedurally) rather it actually going for a vote (so far no one has voted as such, but maybe that is normal. I have been editing Wikipedia for 11 years but not so regularly and policies and mechanisms do change and I don't keep up). Billlion ( talk) 18:15, 28 January 2016 (UTC) reply
I read up on the mechanism. What I was thinking of was speedy keep'. WP:SK. JohnBlackburne could you do that if you accept the argument above otherwise I think an admin has to close the debate after 7 days have elapsed.
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 02:36, 3 February 2016 (UTC) reply
  • Strong keep but rename Notability established as above, and nomination for deletion was in my opinion, a confusion caused by the wrong article name. But article name should be reverted to EIDORS. One problem with moving it to a section of Electrical impedance tomography is that that article is curently about biomedical applications of EIT, while Electrical resistivity tomography (ERT) covers the geophysical case and industrial process tomography is now only covered in Industrial process imaging. See references in EIDORS article for uses in a variety on non medical areas. If EIDORS were to be merged it would have to be a section in a new article Calderon's inverse boundary value problem which would cover the mathematical problem irrespective of application Billlion ( talk) 09:17, 3 February 2016 (UTC) reply
  • Comment: As it is relisted perhaps some users of EIDORS get a chance to look at this as the article certainly needs some improvement. As there is plenty of open source example images and meshes on the EIDORS web site and some of those could be used to illustrate the article. The idea of an article on Calderon's problem generally is growing on me, and I hope to start this irrespective of the outcome of the debate. The subject of electrical imaging is a difficult one for Wikipedia in that it appears different to the different communities medical, industrial and geophysical even though mathematically they are doing the same thing. I think a mathematical article that covers both uniqueness and stability of solution and numerical methods of inversion sounds like a good idea as then the application articles can focus on what is specific to those areas. Billlion ( talk) 10:04, 3 February 2016 (UTC) reply
  • Keep: While the article is certainly under-developed, EIDORS is definitely notable. It is widely used in research on Electrical Impedance Tomography (aka ERT). In fact, it is frequently used as the gold standard implementation against which new algorithms are compared (e.g. [1] [2], recent scientific articles by authors not associated with EIDORS). As Billion argues, scientific articles are the best independent reliable sources for this scientific software. Bgrychtol ( talk) 11:22, 3 February 2016 (UTC) reply
Here's an open-access article example: Saeedizadeh N, Kermani S, Rabbani H. A Comparison between the hp-version of Finite Element Method with EIDORS for Electrical Impedance Tomography. Journal of Medical Signals and Sensors. 2011;1(3):200-205. [3]/ Bgrychtol ( talk) 14:11, 3 February 2016 (UTC) reply
  • Rename: The article title should be (or contain) "EIDORS", such as e.g. on the EIDORS website: "EIDORS: Electrical Impedance Tomography and Diffuse Optical Tomography Reconstruction Software" [4]. "Electrical Impedance Tomography Reconstruction Software" is too generic and could as well contain a list. Bgrychtol ( talk) 11:22, 3 February 2016 (UTC) reply
  • Keep - while it's hard to establish (GNG-)notability without the access to paywalled papers, there are indications that coverage rather than mere mention of the software takes place - e.g. " More recently, the application of image reconstruction to a specific tomography problem has become simplified by the introduction of user-defined functions implemented from Electrical Impedance and Diffuse Optical Reconstruction Software (EIDORS)."
Moreover articles such as that included in Computer Networks and Intelligent Computing: 5th International Conference on Information Processing, ICIP 2011, Bangalore, India, August 5-7, 2011. Proceedings on page 622 cover the software before moving on to modifications and other matters.
There is reason to believe that sufficient independent reliable coverage exists to keep this article.
All the best: Rich  Farmbrough, 13:23, 3 February 2016 (UTC). reply
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Software-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal ( talk) 16:37, 3 February 2016 (UTC) reply
  • Keep: (but rename article) This software is also used in industry (though I guess my citation is proprietary). Sewebster ( talk) 17:54, 3 February 2016 (UTC) reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
  1. ^ http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp?tp=&arnumber=7020959
  2. ^ http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp?tp=&arnumber=6701621
  3. ^ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3347226/
  4. ^ http://eidors3d.sourceforge.net/
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