The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. Result of discussion is clear: no, or not enough, reliable sources to prove notability. Drmies ( talk) 00:34, 4 July 2024 (UTC) reply

Down-ball

Down-ball (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)

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Searches for a reliable WP:RS fail. The term is absent in Google Scholar and Books, on the Web used to describe particular situation in handball and the Four square game, but never in this context. The description on the site of Melbourne University [1] appears to be a typo: the detailed rules (under "At School 05") do not describe any wall use (it seems that the previous short text is a result of a mix-up, the game with a wall is described elsewhere: "Wall ball"). The other source [2] clearly states that down ball is Four square on p. 40 Викидим ( talk) 19:47, 21 June 2024 (UTC) reply

WP:PROD was objected to by Rockycape. See his objections on User talk:Rockycape#Proposed deletion of Down-ball. Викидим ( talk) 19:56, 21 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Was this article moved to Articles for deletion too quickly? Since it has been moved to Articles for deletion, new references have been added to the article and it has also been improved. Why not remove from AfD and allow the article to be further improved? Is this not a possibility right now? How is this progressed? Rockycape ( talk) 22:22, 3 July 2024 (UTC) reply

Викидим - I think your position would benefit by consideration of the context of schoolyard games more generally. Schoolyard games such as Down-ball are primarily passed down to new generations in the schoolyard and are generally not recorded in the literature or on the web to a large extent like main stream sports for example. To be a useful contributor to the Down-ball wikipedia page I would ask that you change your approach from being a sceptic and pushing for deletion to helping to find better references whether they be in the literature or on the web. I'll certainly be working to find better references myself. Down-ball deserves a page on wikipedia as a schoolyard game enjoyed by many school kids today. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rockycape ( talk • contribs) 01:04, 22 June 2024 (UTC) reply

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Games-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 02:37, 22 June 2024 (UTC) reply
• Redirect to Downball Four square. I find no evidence that down-ball as an independent concept refers to anything other than the popular recess game. The article uses the two sources to say the game is distinct from four square, but the University of Melbourne source makes no reference to four square and the "Play and Folklore" source (whose discussion of down-ball is based on the Melbourne source) specifically says down-ball is "also called Four-square." Additional sources indicate that this term is indeed just another name for four square; see Susemihl and Tsolidis. Dclemens1971 ( talk) 11:52, 22 June 2024 (UTC) reply

  I rebut Dclemens1971 first assertion that down-ball as an independent concept refers to anything other than the popular recess game (Four square). I point you to the University of Melbourne source at the top of the page where it states "Downball is a game where the first player bounces the ball on ground, to rebound off (the) wall. The second player must hit ball the same way after only one bounce. Everyone must do the same until they miss - then they are out." Rockycape ( talk) 10:08, 23 June 2024 (UTC) reply

 Comment: I think that there needs to be some further looking then. As a kid of the age in Australia, downball and four square are different games. Four square needs four, and involves four squares. Down ball could have multiple participants, did require a wall, and no squares. Only commonality was a ball and people, and the required impact. — billinghurst sDrewth 01:26, 23 June 2024 (UTC) reply

• Not to be confused with Downball. Walsh90210 ( talk) 01:28, 23 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Keep. I have improved the page by updating two references (added page number to pdf ref) and adding a third reference. I have deleted the sentence referring to Four square. Rockycape ( talk) 10:14, 23 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Please stop !voting "keep" with every comment. One is enough. You have also not addressed the sources I linked above that say that down-ball is another name for four square. Dclemens1971 ( talk) 11:43, 23 June 2024 (UTC) reply

I've removed one of the "Keep" so now there is one from me. Rockycape ( talk) 21:49, 23 June 2024 (UTC) reply

"These were not the 'sporty' boys, but instead those who played chess, table tennis, or 'four square or down ball" Tsolidis Rockycape ( talk) 21:58, 23 June 2024 (UTC) reply

I contend that the author Tsolidis is giving four examples of games. I further content that the author is not trying to say that "chess, table tennis or 'four square' or downball" are the same game. Rockycape ( talk) 22:04, 23 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Use of double "or" and singular "game" hint that the interpretation of Dclemens1971 is correct. Викидим ( talk) 22:13, 23 June 2024 (UTC) reply

To progress the discussion I'd be happy to address Tsolidis reference further and the implications for this discussion. Викидим ( talk) contends that Use of double "or" as in "chess, table tennis or 'four square' or downball" adds weight that the author is saying that these games are the same.

Table tennis and four square are distinctly different games. We wouldn't interchangeably use Table tennis or Four square but would use the name of the game that we wanted to discuss.

There is another dimension to this that I hope will further this discussion. "Football" may refer to several different games around the world and although this may cause confusion at times there is no debate that these games do not exist. Such a debate would be non-sensical. Rockycape ( talk) 22:56, 23 June 2024 (UTC) reply

The sentence is offering this structure: "...instead those who played:

• chess,
• table tennis, or
• 'four square' or down ball (a no-contact board game)."

The Oxford comma makes it clear that four square/down-ball are presented as a single item. Dclemens1971 ( talk) 23:06, 23 June 2024 (UTC) reply

You apparently are missing a comma between tables tennis and four square ... Викидим ( talk) 23:12, 23 June 2024 (UTC) reply

As Викидим points out, the construction of the sentence makes it plain and clear that Tsolidis is describing the four square and downball as two terms for the same game. @ Rockycape, your only source for the claim that four square and down-ball are different is one page within the Melbourne site which (I agree with the nominator) appears to have a typo. On a separate page describing "Wall Ball," the same source says "Sometimes children will use the wall as the solid surface to bounce against, as opposed to the four square court" and "This game is like Down Ball played against a wall." The discrepancies within this source and the weight of other sources saying four square and down-ball are the same game argue for my conclusion. If you have additional reliable sources, please provide them. Dclemens1971 ( talk) 23:03, 23 June 2024 (UTC) reply

I remain unconvinced with Викидим and Dclemens1971 argument that in regards to the Tsolidis reference and the contention that "Use of double "or" in "chess, table tennis or 'four square' or downball" adds weight that the author is saying that these games are the same. Rockycape ( talk) 23:25, 23 June 2024 (UTC) reply

As part of this discussion I'd like to ask for some assistance. There are two school yard games that I play with my kids after school that we all thoroughly enjoy. The kids also play both games with their friends at recess and lunchtime. One game has it's own wikipedia page and the other game down-ball I have created the wikipedia page recently.

There are critics that seem to think that the game does not exist in real life and are prepared to strongly argue for the deletion of recently created wikipedia page.

The name of the game is Down-ball but recording the name of the game is less important to my kids than having a wikipedia page of the game they love and is played across many schools in several countries.

Right now despite my kids wishes and our experience that this game is indeed real it would be easier to simply stop supporting the continued existence of the down-ball page. Can I ask for some advice on whether I should stop supporting the continued existance of the down-ball wikipedia page?

I'd also like to thank billinghurst sDrewth for the supportive comment " I think that there needs to be some further looking then. As a kid of the age in Australia, downball and four square are different games. Four square needs four, and involves four squares. Down ball could have multiple participants, did require a wall, and no squares. " Rockycape ( talk) 23:54, 23 June 2024 (UTC) reply

There is clearly some misunderstanding of my position here (and possibly the machinery of Wikipedia). I did not state anything about the "real world", in which, many decades ago, I have played many obscure sporty-ish games, some of them made-up on the fly, with equally obscure names, occasionally only known in my neighborhood. While I am here in Wikipedia, my personal experiences count for nothing, and there is a reason for that: my personal account cannot be independently verified and, without verification, there is zero chance that Wikipedia articles will be trustworthy. The details can be found in WP:V. Therefore in order to have an article about game, one needs to show WP:RS that fit WP:GNG. In particular, in order to claim that down-ball and Four Square are names different games, an author needs to show an RS that clearly states just that. So far, there are none: even the university article does not claim the distinction between the two, is contains two different descriptions that, in my opinion are simply mixed-up during the Web site editing. I do not deny the existence of some other, different, game with the name "down-ball", I simply state that there are not enough sources describing it. In the Wikipedia lingo, it is "not notable". To prove otherwise, additional sources are needed. Finding such sources is responsibility of the editor creating the article ( WP:BURDEN), but in this particular case I have spent a significant amount of time trying to find them before marking the article for WP:PROD - and failed. Викидим ( talk) 00:22, 24 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Unfortunately whether down-ball and Four Square are different or the same game does not further this discussion. There is another context that explains the situation.

Going back to the University of Melbourne page it appears on first inspection and as others have highlighted that the University of Melbourne author has contradicted themselves. However they have simply recorded different findings at different schools.

The context of the research is important here. The author has collected information from various schoolyards in various locations and recorded their findings. The author has then tried to make sense of the various finding and organised the information into topics.

e.g.

heading: BALL GAME

subheading: Downball

Downball is a game where the first player bounces the ball on ground, to rebound off wall. The second player must hit ball the same way after only one bounce. Everyone must do the same until they miss - then they are out.

At School 14

Players: Several

Boys and Girls

Age: 10-11

Props: Tennis Ball and Brick Wall Rockycape ( talk) 01:02, 24 June 2024 (UTC) reply

The discussion about whether Down-ball and Four square are different or the same game is a red herring in understanding the game for the page that I have created.

The game that I have created the Down-ball wikipedia page about utilises a wall and is characterised by hitting the ball down to the ground before rebounding off the wall and not hitting the wall on the full.

It may be useful for this discussion to view this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_2hPDOhPFo.

I have also added an additional reference to the Down-ball article. /info/en/?search=Down-ball#cite_note-4

Rockycape ( talk) 02:33, 24 June 2024 (UTC) reply

• Comment. The thread above shows a lot of confusion on the part of the creator on WP:RS and WP:NOT. The creator links to a youtube video for a game labeled "handball." However, Wikipedia already has an article called Downball. There is no evidence that a hyphenated version of "down-ball" refers to a different game. Per WP:RPURPOSE, redirects can and should be made with terms that are slightly different in punctuation and this should be no exception. Unless reliable sources indicate otherwise (and they don't here), a separate article should not be created for an article title with an added hyphen. Dclemens1971 ( talk) 02:49, 24 June 2024 (UTC) reply
• Comment. Quite the contrary to your comment, all the evidence on the down-ball wikipedia page is that it refers to a different game.

  I don't agree with your assertion about confusion. The purpose for sharing the youtube video in this discussion was to add to the discussion here. Seeing the game played can do wonders for understanding. Clearly in the video, you can see the ball is struck down and bounces before striking the wall. Rockycape ( talk) 03:14, 24 June 2024 (UTC) reply

  As per WP:GNG - A topic is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list when it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. Multiple reliable secondary sources:

  1st. University Of Melbourne

  2nd. Museums Victoria

  3rd. playworks.org - Organisation promoting schoolyard play and games

Rockycape ( talk) 04:17, 24 June 2024 (UTC) reply

The 2nd source ("museum") on p. 40 has

• picture of Downball (no dash) - with no walls anywhere
• text "The most popular ball game played against a wall in ... schools – called Wall Ball, Handball or Downball ... has a closer resemblance to the sport of Squash ... A more challenging version of Downball ... Also called Four Square".

So effectively it says that Downball is either called Wall Ball or Four square. Both are already described here. So how exactly this source contributes to WP:GNG requirements for this article? Викидим ( talk) 06:15, 24 June 2024 (UTC) reply

The 3rd source ("playworks") describes Wall Ball so it seems to be completely irrelevant. Викидим ( talk) 06:18, 24 June 2024 (UTC) reply

You seem to be focussing on the finding what you would call errors from the author that would discredit the author. You point out the picture of Downball and because you can't see a wall in the picture you pose this as a problem. Perhaps the picture was taken from the wallside? You and I don't know but I don't think it discredits the author.

The full quote is: "The most popular ball game played against a wall

in today’s schools – called Wall Ball, Handball or Downball – has no rhyme and only one action. It has a closer resemblance to the sport of Squash than to the rhythmic, chanting games of the 1950s. A more challenging version of Downball is played on a court with multiple squares, or anywhere there’s a flat, even surface with a line across it, like a concrete path. Also called Four Square, this game was recorded at 15 of the 19 schools visited during the Childhood, Tradition and Change project, and there was sometimes more than one version at the same school."

Also I have no problem with the full quote. Again it does not discredit the author. In this school yard games research finding contradictions in terminology also does not discredit the author. Rockycape ( talk) 07:11, 24 June 2024 (UTC) reply

The text says that Downball (no dash) is either same as Wall Ball, or, in a different version, same as Four square. There is no problem in the text, as quite frequently same words have two different meanings. But nowhere this text says that Down-ball is some third game. Викидим ( talk) 08:05, 24 June 2024 (UTC) reply

In your comment above you have added links to the Wall Ball wikipedia page and the Four square wikipedia page. The links and the inherent meaning that you try to add is not correct to include in this quote and is not in the original quote. The authors quote is is simply Wall Ball and Four square without the links you've added.

When the author lists the named games in the sentence "The most popular ball games played against a wall in today's schools - called Wall Ball, Handball or Downball", they are simply listing some names by which this game utilising a wall may be called by kids in the playground. I am arguing that the game that my kids play which has been called Down-ball amongst other names and clearly has multiple references to the specifics of the game (played against a wall, ball hit by hand hit down towards ground to bounce then rebound off wall).

If you want to get caught up in making sure it is the "correct" name of the game across all countries across the world then you'll never be satisfied because the same game is called by different names. Those different names are likely to be in different in languages other than english names we are discussing here.

As per my wikipedia page creation, Down-ball is a good name for this game in that: it is one of the names of the game that features prominently in the references, it also describes one of the key concepts of the game in that the ball is struck down to the ground and it also describes that this is a ball game. Rockycape ( talk) 23:48, 24 June 2024 (UTC) reply

It is timely now to highlight this section from Wikipedia:Deletion_process

"Also remember that nobody is obligated to close a discussion, nor is it crucial that a discussion be closed immediately once its week-long run has ended. If you feel that there is a conflict between the views expressed, and Wikipedia's policies and guidelines (e.g., an inappropriate super-majority view without an appropriate basis), it may be preferable to instead comment yourself, rather than closing, even if the "due date" for closing has been reached, and leave the close to another editor." Rockycape ( talk) 02:25, 25 June 2024 (UTC) reply

• Delete none of Rockycape's arguments have been convincing. It is possible that, somewhere, some version of Wallball is called "Downball". But that doesn't mean there needs to be a separate article under that name. This is confusing and largely unsourced. Walsh90210 ( talk) 02:40, 25 June 2024 (UTC) reply

  Walsh90210 doesn't elaborate so for the purpose of furthering this discussion I will assume their position is "It is confusing to create a Down-ball wikipedia page because there is not consensus on the name of the game."

  My rebuttal is it is ok to have a wikipedia page where a game is known by different names. The disambiguation page handles this situation clearly and effectively

  e.g. /info/en/?search=Football_(disambiguation) Rockycape ( talk) 23:21, 25 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Lots of discussion (probably enough for now) but not enough "votes" or opinions on what should happen with this article.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:46, 28 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Keep I as a Danish user know of Down-ball as a separate game and was looking for it. Four Square is NOT the same, neither is Downball.

The difference lies mostly in how the players are deemed out. In wallball it is by not hitting tie wall, in this game by not hitting the ball. I can add that in Danish this game is called Mur (Wall) - not on Wikipedis, unfortunately. Uglemor ( talk) 07:22, 1 July 2024 (UTC) — Uglemor ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. reply

Hi there. Curious how you came across this page given this is just your third edit since 2019. Can you supply any reliable sources (as opposed to your own say-so) to show that "down-ball" is different from Downball? Dclemens1971 ( talk) 14:40, 1 July 2024 (UTC) reply

I accept that there are games that do not satisfy the requirements to have a wikipedia page. The following video ( https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=253068935767846 ) is an example of a game I do not support having it's own wikipedia page.

Down-ball however is a different kettle of fish. Rockycape ( talk) 01:50, 3 July 2024 (UTC) reply

I've added an additional reference to Down-ball page. The page now has four references. Rockycape ( talk) 05:06, 3 July 2024 (UTC) reply

"While Wikipedia's written policies and guidelines should be taken seriously, they can be misused.

Do not follow an overly strict interpretation of the letter of policy without consideration for the principles of policies.

If the rules truly prevent you from improving the encyclopedia, ignore them.

Disagreements are resolved through consensus-based discussion, not by tightly sticking to rules and procedures.

Furthermore, policies and guidelines themselves may be changed to reflect evolving consensus. (WP:NOT)"

I've just read the above from /info/en/?search=User_talk:Liz and I think it is timely to reflect on this good practical advice. Rockycape ( talk) 05:16, 3 July 2024 (UTC) reply

I'll have to double-check but I don't think those statements are on my User talk page. Maybe I link to a page that states this but IAR can be widely misunderstood as negating the necessity of following any rules at all so I doubt I'd have those words on my User talk page. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:58, 3 July 2024 (UTC) reply

Those words are from the page: /info/en/?search=User_talk:Liz

Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong. Rockycape ( talk) 07:16, 3 July 2024 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.