- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Consensus was that the subject is notable. Possible name or content changes can be discussed on the talk page. (non-admin closure) Rollidan ( talk) 03:48, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
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- Czech diaspora in Israel ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
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Unreferenced article, seemingly pure original research GreyShark ( dibra) 12:00, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 13:03, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Czech Republic-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz ( talk) 13:18, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ethnic groups-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz ( talk) 13:18, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
- Comment I think this would be an interesting topic, there are a couple of interesting news stories on the web. I would be inclined to keep if the list of names was removed and an actual article created. Govvy ( talk) 17:48, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
- But as long as that is not the case, I support the deletion nomination. By the way, it was decided in a large Rfc that we don't usually have a collage of people as image in the infobox of articles about ethnic groups. Debresser ( talk) 19:09, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
- Keep. Can be sourced. A list of notable people in Category:Israeli people of Czech-Jewish descent meets WP:LISTBIO - discussed as set, notable members. The list of settlements probably also passes SAL. Icewhiz ( talk) 19:18, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
- Icewiz, do you realize that all of the article contents fail to meet Czech
diaspora criteria (neither ethically as all entries are not Czechs, nor nationally since Czech Republic is a recently created state)? Note that there is no other article of this kind referring to Jews in Israel as diaspora of other countries.
GreyShark (
dibra)
20:50, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
- Olim/immigration per country articles could be created (and we do have some - e.g. Ethiopian Jews in Israel). Czech vs. Czechoslovakia is a title issue (and I will note that the Jewish commmunity is usually discussed on Czech or Bohemian lines - the short lived (Divided again during the Holocaust, finally divided in 1993) Czechoslovakia is a less relevant division for the Jewish community. I could see the title changing - e.g. Czech Jews in Israel - however the topic is notable. Icewhiz ( talk) 03:58, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
- Keep and rename
Czechoslovakian Jews in Israel. Lack of sources and switching from list to prose can be addressed. The relevant category for this kind of article is
Category:Israeli Jews by national origin, which includes many examples. Although the proposed title includes the generic Czech diaspora, from the content it seems clear that it is discussing Jews.
I wouldn't go withI don't prefer Czech Jews in Israel because most or all arrived during a time when this was not the country of origin name. Still, there also exist Slovakian Jews; and while being forced to create Slovakian Jews in Israel at some point might be a bit excessive, this is also a viable option since current articles in WP support this division. Havradim ( talk) 09:18, 30 July 2019 (UTC) - Keep. Rename Czech Jews in Israel. Legit topic, needs better coverage of the several waves of aliyah from the Czech lands. E.M.Gregory ( talk) 10:41, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
- Can you find a source for "Czech Jews" in Israel? Sounds like an anachronistic attempt to rebrand Ashkenazi Jews from Bohemia and later Czechoslovakia. None of them probably identify Czech.
GreyShark (
dibra)
16:23, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
- @ E.M.Gregory: Greyshark said what I was thinking, I don't think the title Czech Jews in Israel would work. Govvy ( talk) 16:26, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
- Can you find a source for "Czech Jews" in Israel? Sounds like an anachronistic attempt to rebrand Ashkenazi Jews from Bohemia and later Czechoslovakia. None of them probably identify Czech.
GreyShark (
dibra)
16:23, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
- Comment, no real opinion on the deletion issue, but if we want to give a more geographically/historically neutral name for the area we could use Czech lands, which applies whatever the current country is called. Something like Jews from the Czech lands in Israel. Maybe that doesn't parse very well. Jdcooper ( talk) 17:04, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
- Except that Slovakia is not a "Czech land". E.M.Gregory ( talk) 17:25, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
- My hesitation is that Czechoslovakia is not invented until 1918, by which point Zionist movements had been flourishing in Prague and Bratislava for 2 decades, and up until which point the Czech and Slovak regions, while both Hapsburg possessions, had not been ruled as a unit. Nor is it the identity of Jews in central Europe in the first half of the 20th century simple. Among secularists in Czech communities, most notably Prague, some Jews became enthusiastic Czech nationalists, while others hoped that the Hapsburgs would hold it together. In economically undeveloped, agrarian Slovakia nationalism had not really arrived (except Hungarian nationalism,) and the Jews of Bratislava were Habsburg Jews, but not particularly identified with German, Hungarian or Slovak nationalism. This makes the whole question of how to describe Jews from Central Europe difficult. One option would be to have separate pages according to modern national borders, Jews from Slovakia, Jews from Czech lands. There is no perfect solution; if there was, Metternich and Castlereagh would have found it. E.M.Gregory ( talk) 17:25, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
- Keep. Re-title Czech and Slovak Jews in Israel. I guess you could also add Bohemians in Mandatory Palestine while you are at it, but let's keep it simple. XavierItzm ( talk) 09:08, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
- Comment - considering the population of ethnic Czechs in Israel being negligible and perhaps just a few dozen Jews from Czechia, there is a real problem of notability for such an article. We cannot create an article on 20 people with no real notability, no sources and no content. Most of the current contents of "Czech diaspora in Israel" article have nothing to do with Czech diaspora (instead emphasizing Jewish diaspora), speaking of pre-Czech Republic history of Czechoslovakian Jews and Bohemian Jews from Austro-Hungarian Empire. It is a little bit like naming Anatolian Greeks who fled Anatolia on Turkic conquest as "Turkish diaspora".
GreyShark (
dibra)
14:05, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
- That's a title issue. The Jewish community of Prague was rather large, and there are at the very least tens of thousands of greater-Prague (or whatever you wanna call it - hewiki rolls with "Czech Jews") Jews (and descendants) in Israel - including several wikiNotable ones. Icewhiz ( talk) 14:13, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
- Greyshark, this is why I suggested Bohemians in
Mandatory Palestine. Could simplify to Bohemians in Palestine, perhaps?
XavierItzm (
talk)
09:19, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
- Would probably fail COMMONNAME, as Bohemians in Israel (and Tel-Aviv in particular) more commonly refers to those who practice (or are ascribed to practice)
Bohemianism than those from actual Bohemia.
Icewhiz (
talk)
11:03, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
- Taking the name of
Category:Israeli people of Czech-Jewish descent, and naming this page
Israeli people of Czech-Jewish descent would work, as would
Israeli people of Slovakian-Jewish descent (that would mostly be folks ffrom Pressbug/Bratislava). One problem is that many of the pages involved note only that the individuals named came from "Czechoslovakia".
E.M.Gregory (
talk)
11:36, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
- I think you are trying to go in the wrong direction here. The aim of the page
Czech diaspora in Israel is similar to
Dutch people in Israel and
Kurds in Israel. It has nothing to do with Jews of certain origin (Jews are Judean diaspora, not Czech, Dutch or Kurdish or anything). The fact the whole page is describing people like
Tzvi Ashkenazi from 17th century
Habsburg Moravia who settled in
Ottoman Syria and later Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth implies this content a pure original research in regard to modern Czechia and Israel, so trying to fit it to another title is a futile thought.
GreyShark (
dibra)
09:02, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
- Bohemians and Moravians in Ottoman Syria has a nice ring to it. Perhaps the page ought to be temporally divided, so old European émigrés to Syria Palæstina might be Bohemians, etc., and the Promised Land would be called Syria, Palestine, Israel, etc., etc., as per the pertinent time to each European immigrant. XavierItzm ( talk) 12:48, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
- I think you are trying to go in the wrong direction here. The aim of the page
Czech diaspora in Israel is similar to
Dutch people in Israel and
Kurds in Israel. It has nothing to do with Jews of certain origin (Jews are Judean diaspora, not Czech, Dutch or Kurdish or anything). The fact the whole page is describing people like
Tzvi Ashkenazi from 17th century
Habsburg Moravia who settled in
Ottoman Syria and later Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth implies this content a pure original research in regard to modern Czechia and Israel, so trying to fit it to another title is a futile thought.
GreyShark (
dibra)
09:02, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
- Taking the name of
Category:Israeli people of Czech-Jewish descent, and naming this page
Israeli people of Czech-Jewish descent would work, as would
Israeli people of Slovakian-Jewish descent (that would mostly be folks ffrom Pressbug/Bratislava). One problem is that many of the pages involved note only that the individuals named came from "Czechoslovakia".
E.M.Gregory (
talk)
11:36, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
- Would probably fail COMMONNAME, as Bohemians in Israel (and Tel-Aviv in particular) more commonly refers to those who practice (or are ascribed to practice)
Bohemianism than those from actual Bohemia.
Icewhiz (
talk)
11:03, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
- Please define "ethnic Czech" and explain why being "ethnic Czech" (whatever on earth that may be) is mutually exclusive with being Jewish. Do you advance the view that to be Czech you have to be "ethnic Czech" as well? Are Czech citizens of Ethiopian, Mongolian, German, Romani, or Vietnamese descent not "truly Czech" under this understanding? Czech is a nationality and a culture, not just an "ethnicity", and I am highly disturbed by the attempt to racialize Czech identity and exclude Czech Jews and other Czech minorities from a concept of Czech cultural or national identity. Bohemian Baltimore ( talk) 13:04, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
- Greyshark, this is why I suggested Bohemians in
Mandatory Palestine. Could simplify to Bohemians in Palestine, perhaps?
XavierItzm (
talk)
09:19, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
- Comment This particular editor has making numerous racist edits involving Jewish-related articles, destructively removing information regarding Jews in the diaspora. His particular racist angle seems to be that a Jewish person cannot be an "ethnic Czech" (whatever that is) or a Czech at all, that a Jew cannot belong to a diaspora culture, ethnicity, or nationality. Seemingly, there is no such thing as a "Russian Jew" or a "German Jew" in this editor's perspective. This is a highly biased point of view, one which many Jews wouldn't even agree with. I suggest that he or she stop vandalizing articles to push his/her controversial, racist worldview. Bohemian Baltimore ( talk) 12:57, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.