The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Hypocrites' Club#Members. Doesn't look like there's going to be any more discussion after two full relists without, and there's no clear consensus on whether or not the sources are enough to merit standalone notability. With an eye to preserving the content in a place where there is no question of notability (and following the author's actions), I think a merge would be the best course of action here. ansh 666 19:41, 20 February 2018 (UTC) reply

Arden Hilliard

Arden Hilliard (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)

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I'm not even sure what the claim to be notability is here but, regardless, I see no evidence of the subject of this article meeting the guidelines of WP:N. The references on this page, though numerous, are all trivial and do not cover the subject of the article itself (at least not the ones I can access). There is no evidence here of the type of sustained coverage in reliable, third-party sources that would satisfy the requirements at WP:N. Canadian Paul 15:22, 27 January 2018 (UTC) reply

• Delete hobbing around with notable people and being in a non-notable film are not the things that add up to notability. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 15:24, 27 January 2018 (UTC) reply

I beg to differ The Scarlet Woman is not a not notable movie: Terence Lucy Greenidge -- Elisa.rolle ( talk) 15:29, 27 January 2018 (UTC) reply

• Keep he was a member of an elitary club in Oxford which did not account for many members all of whom have a wikipedia entry. He partecipated to a movie project that is considered an important step in English movie history and he is often named by Evelyn Waugh as one of his dearest friend. Corollary importance due to the suicide of his mother for which he was called to testify and his participation to WWII. Elisa.rolle ( talk) 15:26, 27 January 2018 (UTC) reply

Notability is not inherited. Canadian Paul 15:48, 27 January 2018 (UTC) reply

where did I said that his notablity is inherited? he was the one in the club, he was the one in the movie, he was the one testifying in the trial for his mother, he was the one fighting during WWII...

Arden Hilliard is mentioned in: To Keep the Ball Rolling: The Memoirs of Anthony Powell [1] and Journals 1982 By Anthony Powell [2] and Infants of the spring by Anthony Powell [3] A Little Learning: The First Volume of an Autobiography by Evelyn Waugh [4] and Vile Bodies By Evelyn Waugh [5] and The Diaries of Evelyn Waugh [6] The Brideshead Generation: Evelyn Waugh and His Friends by Howard Carpenter [7] Records of Buckinghamshire, Volume 48 [8] Tom Driberg: his life and indiscretions [9] Wine and Food, Issues 9-16 [10] A. J. A. Symons, his life and speculations [11] Francis Fortescue Urquhart: A Memoir [12] The London Gazette, Part 5 [13] Oxford 1919-1939: Un creuset intellectuel ou les métamorphoses d'une génération [14] Party Going by Henry Green [15] Bright Young People: The Lost Generation of London's Jazz Age by D.J. Taylor [16] A House in Gross Disorder: Sex, Law, and the 2nd Earl of Castlehaven By Cynthia B. Herrup [17] Faith Beyond Resentment: Fragments Catholic and Gay [18] Terrible queer creatures: homosexuality in Irish history [19]. It does not seem to me that his notability is "inherited". Elisa.rolle ( talk) 16:03, 27 January 2018 (UTC) reply

• Delete - Notability is not inherited. Nothing indicates that the subject meets WP:NACTOR or other notability criteria.-- Rpclod ( talk) 16:25, 27 January 2018 (UTC) reply

Never asked him to be classified or mainly considered as "actor"; his experience as actor is related to a movie that has importance for its contest and creators, not for the importance of the acting. Even if the movie, AND Arden Hilliard, is listed by the British Film Institute. Nevertheless, Notability: 1) "Significant coverage" 18 independent sources, books from mainstream publishers. 2) "Reliable" 18 reliable source (books from mainstream publishers) 3) "Sources" Taylor, Carpenter, Queer studies, are secondary sources, NOT linked to Hilliard (Powell, Waugh, are linked to him) 4) "Independent of the subject" Taylor, Carpenter, Queer studies, are independent source. 5) "Presumed" 18 sources presumes he is notable. Elisa.rolle ( talk) 16:41, 27 January 2018 (UTC) reply

Those are just peripheral references that mention the person in the context of others. Nothing conveys notability.-- Rpclod ( talk) 16:47, 27 January 2018 (UTC) reply

"At some stage that summer I went with Arden Hilliard for two or three weeks to Corsica; an enjoyable trip though without great adventure. We crossed from Marseilles to Ajaccio, toured the island, returned to France by Bastia then to Nice. We were in a cafe a day later when Hugh Lygon came in. Seeing us, he established at a table the girl who was with him, and made for where we were sitting. 'I'm staying at Willie Maugham's villa,' Lygon said. 'I've been stuck for the afternoon with this ..." To Keep the Ball Rolling: The Memoirs of Anthony Powell - Page 114 (Not peripheral reference)

"On Sunday John Sutro came over from Oxford and invited me to lunch next day with him in his digs in Beaumont Street. That evening I recorded in my diary: 'I am more than half inclined to accept.' I did so. Monday Nov 12th I went to Oxford and contrary to my intentions stayed the night. John's party consisted of Harold Acton, Mark Ogilvie-Grant, Hugh Lygon, Robert Byron, Arden Hilliard and Richard Pares." A Little Learning: The First Volume of an Autobiography (Not peripheral reference)

"At about this stage of the evening my recollections become somewhat blurred. I got a sword fromsomewhere and gotinto Balliol somehow and was let out of awindow atsometime having mocked Arden [Hilliard] and Tony Powell and talked very seriously to Peter Quennell" The Brideshead Generation: Evelyn Waugh and His Friends (Not peripheral reference)

"Thursday,. 19. September. John Bowle obit. I always (so far as possible) avoided John Edward (as John Betjeman always called him) when we were undergraduates at Balliol, feeling sure that Matthew Ponsonby, Arden Hilliard, et al, 'taking Bowle up' as a freshman would lead to trouble." Journals 1982 (Not peripheral reference)

"Among Balliol freshmen of my first year (not, like Anthony Russell, and one or two others, already known at school) were Matthew Ponsonby, Arden Hilliard, Peter Quennell, and Pierse (then more usually Tiers') Synnott. Ponsonby (who has now inherited the peerage his father, the Labour politician, Arthur Ponsonby, was given about this time) was brother of Elizabeth Ponsonby, already something of a gossip-column heroine of what came later to be looked on as the Vile Bodies world ..." Infants of the spring - Page 158 (Not peripheral reference)

"As already mentioned, Crawford made plumbing and sanitary fittings his first priority. The School was close to The Bell public house, then owned by Mr. & Mrs. John Herbert Gladding. Waugh spent a great deal of his leisure time at The Bell, frequently eating and drinking there in preference to consuming the school meals, and entertaining his friends from London and Oxford: 4/11/1925. Enormous body arrived from Oxford in three cars Arden Hilliard, Claud Cockburn, ..." Records of Buckinghamshire - Volume 48 - Page 264 (Not peripheral reference)

Arden Hilliard British Film Institute (Not peripheral reference) Elisa.rolle ( talk) 17:01, 27 January 2018 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sexuality and gender-related deletion discussions. Elisa.rolle ( talk) 16:25, 27 January 2018 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in Wikipedia talk:Wiki Loves Pride. -- Elisa.rolle ( talk) 16:29, 27 January 2018 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies. -- Elisa.rolle ( talk) 22:15, 27 January 2018 (UTC)-- reply

• I don't see anything but brief mentions, @ Elisa.rolle: are there no substantial biographies? Anything with 3 or 4 paragraphs that focus just on him? Being part of an elite club is fine, but I don't believe it makes him notable. Ilyina Olya Yakovna ( talk) 18:23, 27 January 2018 (UTC) — WP:SOCKSTRIKE reply

Point 1) "Significant coverage" of Notability explicity says it is not necessary for the subject to be the main topic of the source. In any case "To Keep the Ball Rolling: The Memoirs of Anthony Powell" cover Powell and Hilliard travel to Corsica in more than a passing sentence. The British Film Institute, despite he has actually only one role in a 1925 movie, has a page for him too. Elisa.rolle ( talk) 20:40, 27 January 2018 (UTC) reply

@ Ильина Оля Яковна:: [20] page 86 and 87 are about Hilliard. Elisa.rolle ( talk) 21:03, 27 January 2018 (UTC) reply

• Keep I have considered this quite carefully, and I do think the person meets the WP:GNG policy. I will point out that 1925 was early in the history of film (first film with sound was in 1927), unlike today not just anyone could be in a film. There is the membership of a relevant elitary club, and by early 20th century standards, a reasonable amount of sources, which while generally short, are sufficient to support the article. Elisa.rolle makes strong arguments for it being kept, and has created 688 pages, I don't see any trickery or ulterior motive. The BFI listing does probably count for something, and the section in The Memoirs of Anthony Powell is quite reasonable, plus the numerous other mentions and reasonable evidence this individual was relevant in his era. Ilyina Olya Yakovna ( talk) 21:24, 27 January 2018 (UTC) — WP:SOCKSTRIKE reply
• Keep, as per Ильина Оля Яковна. The To Keep the Ball Rolling reference is certainly non-trivial. I was involved in another recent AfD discussion relating to a an older film for which few online references could be found. The Scarlet Woman is even older, and so it's unlikely we will find more online references. So I feel that calling it a non-notable film is an invalid argument.

This looks like another possibly non-trivial mention, though I don't read French. = paul2520 ( talk) 21:47, 27 January 2018 (UTC) reply

This is actually the reason why he was dismissed by Balliol College, he dressed as a nun and crossed the gates of Balliol to go to an Hypocrytes' party... but the very interesting fact is that the Dean of Balliol College closed the Hypocrytes' Club after a party where students dressed as nuns and choirboys... so it's very likely that Hilliard was one of the reasons why the Hypocrytes' was shut down. Of course this is an assumption, and we can only report facts: fact 1) Hilliard dressed as a nun and was dismissed by Balliol. fact 2) Dean of Balliol College closed Hypocrytes after a party where students dressed as nuns... Elisa.rolle ( talk) 22:05, 27 January 2018 (UTC) reply

Paul2520: regarding the not-notable comment on "The Scarlet Woman", I support your opinion, and would suggest to read Terence Lucy Greenidge, Evelyn Waugh and Elsa Lanchester's profiles, before saying that a movie where one was director and actor, one writer and actor and the other actress is not-notable. Elisa.rolle ( talk) 22:37, 27 January 2018 (UTC) reply

• Redirect and Merge into Hypocrites' Club#Members. He can be listed last followed by: Edward Arden Hilliard (1904–1976) was... with a brief summary of his life. While it adds to the Hypocrites article to give an understanding of its members' backgrounds, Hilliard himself, lacks the notability for a stand-alone article in my view. The only substantive discussion of him is in the paragraph in the memoirs of Anthony Powell. The rest are literally mentions of his name as having attended this or that dinner in a list of names or requotes from Powell's memoirs (e.g. Un creuset intellectuel ou les métamorphoses d'une génération). His life boils down to briefly attended Oxford where he was a member of a notorious club which did indeed have some notable members. Had a small part in the amateur film The Scarlet Woman produced and written by other club members which probably has enough coverage for a brief article. However, I have been unable to find any commentary on his performance in it. Never acted again. Turned to farming after he was expelled from Oxford. Served in the army in World War II. Died in obscurity in Sussex. Voceditenore ( talk) 16:33, 28 January 2018 (UTC) reply

• Given the two keep and two delete and the Redirect and Merge, I accepted the last and redirected the article to the Hypocrites' Club. Elisa.rolle ( talk) 17:09, 28 January 2018 (UTC) reply

• Elisa, the outcome of an AfD is based on the consensus of the discussants, not on the personal choice of the article's creator. With an even split between "delete" and "keep" opinions, this could well be closed as "no consensus" and kept by default. The discussion only started a day ago. Per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion#Wikietiquette: "While there is no prohibition against moving an article while an AfD discussion is in progress, editors considering doing so should realize such a move can confuse the discussion greatly, can preempt a closing decision, can make the discussion difficult to track, and can lead to inconsistencies when using semi-automated closing scripts." Anyhow, Chrissymad has now, quite rightly in my view, reverted the redirect. Voceditenore ( talk) 17:28, 28 January 2018 (UTC) reply

I will accept any decision the majority would like to take. If the article will remain, then I will remove the Arden section on the Hypocrites' page, otherwise I'm fine with the redirect and merge. Elisa.rolle ( talk) 17:32, 28 January 2018 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.