The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. Despite only having a slight numerical advantage in this discussion, delete is also on stronger footing in terms of guideline-based arguments. Delete !votes point to the absence of significant coverage in independent sources. In rebuttal, keep !votes pointed to a handful of independent sources of which all but one fail to include coverage beyond mere mentions (or else were non-independent). Suggestions to redirect the page to either 1995 American League West tie-breaker game or to other articles [sic] on rivalries did not win additional support following their proposal. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 10:00, 26 June 2023 (UTC) reply

Angels–Mariners rivalry (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)

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Article describes a non-existent rivalry between two teams that just happen to compete in the same division. This topic does not pass WP:GNG based on the below source analysis table. Article reads as WP:FANCRUFT and the only sources available on a WP:BEFORE search are routine mentions or fan blogs. Frank Anchor 16:26, 1 June 2023 (UTC) reply

Source analysis by User:Frank Anchor

Source assessment by User:Frank Anchor Source Comments LAA vs. SEA WP:ROUTINE list of head-to-head records N Seattle Mariners Tailgating Brief 60-word blog that suggests a rivalry between the two teams in name only, but fails to describe any animosity between the teams and their fan-bases. The page however also goes on to describe a possible "rivalry" between the Mariners and most of the other teams in their division. N Rivalry renewal WP:LOCAL coverage (though not directly affiliated with either team). Article suggests an "on-and-off" rivalry between the two teams but also recognizes the teams lack geographical proximity and "bad blood" generally found in a rivalry. N The Mariners have a new rivalry Blog posted in "Lookout Landing," which describes itself as "A Seattle Mariners community," therefore lacks independence. Also, the article calls this series a "new rivalry" and fails to describe any animosity between the teams and fan bases, a basic attribute of any sports rivalry. N Here's each team's fiercest rival -- right now Non-independent posting on MLB.com. Article has one sentence of coverage that reads "There may be no team in baseball with a less obvious rival than the Mariners," suggesting the Mariners don't have a "rival" at all.N Looking at MLB's 19 combined no-hitters Non-independent posting on MLB.com. Coverage of a game in which Angels pitched a no-hitter against the Mariners. Does not even attempt to establish the two teams as rivals. N Seattle sets sail for AL playoffs Routine postgame coverage of a tiebreaker game between the two teams. N Trout puts on historic power display in Seattle Non-independent article on MLB.com which summarizes an impressive series Mike Trout had against Seattle. This article does nothing to establish a rivalry between the two teams. N Trout cements place as all-time tormenter of M's Non-independent article on MLB.com which describes success Mike Trout has had against Seattle throughout his career. Article uses the term "rivals" once in a way that any two teams in the same division can be described as rivals. N Mariners, Angels personnel differ on what sparked brawl Coverage of a brawl between the two teams with differing opinions of what caused the brawl. One opinion is due to the fact that the teams are divisional rivals who have played eight games in an 11-day stretch, and that is the only mention of teams possibly being "rivals."N Ranking the Seattle Mariners' 8 Biggest Rivals Blog that suggests the Angels as one of many rivals for Seattle. Probably the closes source to establishing the two teams as "rivals" but this alone would not pass WP:GNG and there are reliability concerns surrounding BleacherReport. ? Eight ejected after wild brawl between Seattle Mariners, Los Angeles Angels Routine coverage of an in-game brawl between the two teams. Coverage does not describe teams as "rivals" N MLB announces 12 suspensions for mass brawl between Seattle Mariners and Los Angeles Angels Routine coverage related to discipline from aforementioned brawl. Coverage does not describe teams as "rivals" N Angels pitcher goes to IL after falling out of dugout during Mariners brawl Routine coverage of a pitcher suffering an injury. Refers to a "rivalry" in the first sentence but the article does not describe any "rivalry" between the two teams. N

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Baseball-related deletion discussions. Frank Anchor 16:29, 1 June 2023 (UTC) reply

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. Frank Anchor 16:29, 1 June 2023 (UTC) reply

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Washington-related deletion discussions. Frank Anchor 16:29, 1 June 2023 (UTC) reply

• Comment In your source analysis you say:

Angels personnel differ on what sparked brawl

Coverage of a brawl between the two teams with differing opinions of what caused the brawl. One opinion is due to the fact that the teams are divisional rivals who have played eight games in an 11-day stretch, and that is the only mention of teams possibly being "rivals." N

The actual quote from the article is:

Angels interim manager Phil Nevin chalked the brawl up to the teams’ rivalry and the number of games that were played in such a short span. The Angels and Mariners playing eight games against each other in 11 days.

So the manager of the Angels calls it a "rivalry" (not a "divisional rivalry"). Looks like a "Y" to me.

PK-WIKI ( talk) 18:48, 1 June 2023 (UTC) reply

If the manager of an involved team calls a series a rivalry, then it is not independent and therefore not GNG-appropriate.N Frank Anchor 19:39, 1 June 2023 (UTC) reply

A reliable independent source wrote a story on a notable brawl between two baseball teams. In their independent reporting they got a quote from the manager of one of the clubs who blamed the brawl on the rivalry (not "divisional rivalry") between the teams. WP:GNG "excludes works produced by the article's subject". That is very different form this situation, which is an independent reliable source reporting that the manager of one of the clubs believes a rivalry exists between the teams and that said rivalry was one of the direct causes of a bench-clearing brawl. Y PK-WIKI ( talk) 21:06, 1 June 2023 (UTC) reply

And the fact that the manager of one of the clubs is the one calling it a rivalry makes that part of the source not independent, not the source in its entirety (as Fox is an independent publication and a leading authority on MLB coverage). However the only mention of teams being "rivals" is taken from the opinion of an employee of the Angels, making the source not independent (and therefore not GNG-appropriate) for the purposes of establishing a rivalry. Frank Anchor 12:39, 2 June 2023 (UTC) reply

• Delete Two teams play each other often, moreso when they're in the same division. This does not make them an actual "rivalry", in spite of some fancruft put out by Bleacher Report and others. –  Muboshgu ( talk) 19:59, 1 June 2023 (UTC) reply

• Keep In 2007 the Seattle Times wrote an entire column describing the rivalry in detail. By their reporting the rivalry *absolutely* existed in 1995, with the AL West divisional playoff race culminating in a one-game playoff between the Angels and Mariners.

The Seattle Times reports that "three things can create rivalries in sports — proximity, head-to-head competition, and/or bad blood." The Mariners/Angels rivalry is "fueled on the field, just as it was in '95". They say that the rivalry "pretty much died after '95" but that future events (post 2007) could "nudge the rivalry out of hibernation".

The rivalry has been low-key due to both teams' lack of success in the last two decades. But the rivalry is consistently mentioned every time there is an incident between the teams. The 2014 Fernando Rodney arrow incident drew "rivalry" reporting by both the Seattle Times and the Los Angeles Times. The 2022 bench-clearing brawl was described by the manager of the Angles as stemming from the "rivalry" between the teams. The reporting in reliable, independent sources over nearly 3 decades of play shows that there is a rivalry between the teams, albeit with long periods of dormancy.

PK-WIKI ( talk) 19:19, 2 June 2023 (UTC) reply

The Seattle Times article is a good find. That alone isn’t enough for GNG but a good start. As already explained, the pieces describing the brawl only reference a rivalry as quoted by an employee of one of the involved clubs, so that does not pass GNG for the purposes of establishing a rivalry between Seattle and LAA. Frank Anchor 22:18, 2 June 2023 (UTC) reply

• I found this source talking about the rivalry. I also will note in NFL articles, division opponents usually means article (that might not be the same here.) I’d learn towards Keep, but if not kept, Redirect to an articles on rivalries. 75.99.8.58 ( talk) 22:34, 3 June 2023 (UTC) reply

  Also this source. 75.99.8.58 ( talk) 22:38, 3 June 2023 (UTC) reply

  The first does NOTHING to describe the teams as rivals outside of using the term in the title as teams possibly becoming a rivalry. The second was already discounted in my source analysis because it is a blog from an organization that literally calls itself “a Seattle Mariners community” (therefore not independent) and title calls this series a "new rivalry" and fails to describe any animosity between the teams and fan bases, a basic attribute of any sports rivalry. Frank Anchor 18:51, 10 June 2023 (UTC) reply

  Even if SBNation doesn’t count (which, by the way, that source analysis is very harsh), it still meets WP:THREEREFS. Also, a brawl in a way does indicate a rivalry - just look at Avalanche–Red Wings rivalry. A article on the brawl can be created, or left as a section of this article. The yahoo sports article does mention a growing rivalry which can be used to meet GNG. It’s hard to get the same level of coverage from this as say the Mets-Braves rivalry because the two teams are not as good, with the mariners 2022 playoff north their first since 2001, and the angels not making the playoffs since 2014.-- 96.57.52.66 ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 20:12, 10 June 2023 (UTC) reply

  A brawl most certainly does not indicate a rivalry. Brawls happen several times a season and if a small number of brawls between two teams constitutes a rivalry then there would be articles about pretty much every pair of teams in MLB. The Yahoo page does not mention a "growing rivalry." It mentions that they might play some meaningful games against each other, which hasn't been the case in over a decade due to poor performance by at least one team during that time. This can not meet GNG for the purposes of establishing a rivalry. Frank Anchor 16:17, 12 June 2023 (UTC) reply

  Also, the Avalanche-Red Wings rivalry has, and I cannot stress this enough, reliable sources! If this article has the historic importance of those that have articles already, then it deserves to stay, but Frank Anchor makes the good point that you need to fulfill WP:GNG to have any article exist. Conyo14 ( talk) 05:07, 17 June 2023 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗ plicit 23:38, 8 June 2023 (UTC) reply

• Delete per nom. The 1995 race to the playoffs is too little to hang a significant rivalry on. The sourcing is pretty weak. Also, contrary to what 75.99 claims, being in the same division (NFL or MLB) doesn't guarantee a rivalry article. Clarityfiend ( talk) 02:28, 12 June 2023 (UTC) reply

• Keep The league in its rivalry listings has thrown mention at the Angels being the most heated rival of the Mariners. ^[1] PontiacAurora ( talk) 21:20, 13 June 2023 (UTC) reply

• That's not really saying much. WP:OTHERSTUFFDOESNTEXIST, but ... that list includes the Blue Jays-Orioles (no article), Orioles-Yankees (no article), Indians/Guardians-Twins (no article), etc. "Most heated" doesn't automatically mean particularly heated or notable. Clarityfiend ( talk) 10:30, 14 June 2023 (UTC) reply

• MLB's own listing is not independent, therefore it can not count toward WP:GNG. And even if that was not the case, this article has just one sentence of coverage: There may be no team in baseball with a less obvious rival than the Mariners, suggesting the Mariners don't have a "rival" at all. Frank Anchor 12:24, 14 June 2023 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, - 🔥 𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 02:10, 16 June 2023 (UTC) reply

• Delete per nom and source analysis provided, there is not enough SIGCOV to pass GNG. Only the Seattle Times source above is SIGCOV of these teams as rivals and GNG requires multiple sources. Carson Wentz ( talk) 01:40, 17 June 2023 (UTC) reply

A redirect to the 1995 playoff game is a reasonable ATD (per PK-WIKI below) on the condition that the redirect link be removed from the navboxes for the two teams and the MLB rivalries one. Carson Wentz ( talk) 02:55, 20 June 2023 (UTC) reply

• Delete There are hardly any sources from prior to 2022 on this, no newspaper readings, no books. At best a rivalry like this does not deserve its own page. A brawl can begin a rivalry, but the historic importance of a rivalry defines whether it gets its own article or not. Conyo14 ( talk) 04:56, 17 June 2023 (UTC) reply
• @ Conyo14, Frank Anchor, Carson Wentz, and Clarityfriend: I found this paywalled source describing the rivalry from the New York Times from 2019. Not sue if it meets GNG, but something to consider. 108.170.68.186 ( talk) 15:09, 17 June 2023 (UTC) reply

I can access the full version. It does nothing to describe a rivalry between the Angels and Mariners. It only describes a history between Angels player Shohei Ohtani and Mariners player Yusei Kikuchi, who both played in Japan. Hard no for me. Frank Anchor 15:52, 17 June 2023 (UTC) reply

Player rivalries exist. It does not speak to the validity of two teams having a rivalry. Conyo14 ( talk) 16:59, 17 June 2023 (UTC) reply

• I am still a keep due to the significant coverage of the rivalry in the Seattle Times article plus brief rivalry mentions in the other articles.

However, rather than delete, I'd suggest a Redirect to 1995 American League West tie-breaker game.

This game and the 1995 division race is well supported in the Seattle Times article as the major factor of the rivalry.

PK-WIKI ( talk) 17:02, 17 June 2023 (UTC) reply

I oppose this suggested redirect. It could set an unnecessary precedent of redirecting any "Team A-Team B rivalry" title to a tiebreaker game or playoff series between those teams. Plus the article on the 1995 tiebreaker game is about the game itself, not the (relatively insignificant) history between the two teams. Frank Anchor 12:11, 19 June 2023 (UTC) reply

I don't see a problem with such a precedent. If a rivalry is primarily represented by a single game or series and is a possible search term then it makes sense to redirect readers to the game that represents the primary extent of the rivalry. Rlendog ( talk) 19:17, 19 June 2023 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.