- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. – Joe ( talk) 14:15, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
Aja (drag queen)
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WP:BLP of a drag entertainer, whose only notability claim at the present time is being an as-yet non-winning contestant on RuPaul's Drag Race. As we've gone through many times before, simply appearing on a reality show is not in and of itself a notability claim -- a person has to win the show to get an article because of the show per se, and if they don't win then they still have to build notability for other things the same way as any person who was never on the show at all. But this isn't showing that: it shows a couple of pieces of the purely WP:ROUTINE coverage that every contestant on RPDR always gets in that context, and then sources her work as a musician entirely to the songs' own iTunes pages (which is not how you reference a person as a notable musician.) All of which means that the sourcing here is just not cutting it yet, and nothing stated in the article is "inherently" notable enough to exempt the sourcing from having to cut it. Bearcat ( talk) 06:29, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga ( talk • mail) 10:48, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga ( talk • mail) 10:48, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga ( talk • mail) 10:48, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- Comment: I'll let others decide the fate of this article, which I'd prefer to see expanded, but redirecting to
RuPaul's Drag Race (season 9) would be more appropriate than deleting altogether. ---
Another Believer (
Talk) 16:44, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- At this point, I think half of the queens who have been on an episode but don't have articles are redirects to their original season of RPDR, including most of the ones who have been on one of the Allstar seasons. So, I agree with you that if it doesn't survive it should be redirected.
Naraht (
talk) 18:39, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- Since the article has been expanded, and per WP:GNG, my vote is to keep the article. --- Another Believer ( Talk) 19:05, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- At this point, I think half of the queens who have been on an episode but don't have articles are redirects to their original season of RPDR, including most of the ones who have been on one of the Allstar seasons. So, I agree with you that if it doesn't survive it should be redirected.
Naraht (
talk) 18:39, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- Comment: I've dug up a few sources that mainly focus on Aja's activity outside of Drag Race, though I think reasonable arguments could be made that they still constitute routine coverage. I don't presently have the time to undertake this article's expansion as my own project, but I would be willing to contribute to a group effort if consensus is to expand rather than delete or merge it. A few sources:
- Coverage of the Haus of Aja, the drag family she leads in Brooklyn: article on Brokelyn.com [1], Grizzly Kiki podcast [2], interview on Hey Kween [3].
- A couple Billboard articles that mention a post-Drag Race musical collaboration she did with three other Drag Race queens: [4], [5].
-
Comedy Central UK article on a Reddit AMA that Aja did:
[6].
Armadillopteryx
talk 18:35, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- @ Armadillopteryx: Thanks, I've added some of these as supplement inline citations. --- Another Believer ( Talk) 18:48, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- Doing a Reddit ANA is not a Wikipedia notability criterion. Bearcat ( talk) 19:51, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- Keep and expand article, it appears like the start of a good article. C. W. Gilmore ( talk) 18:58, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- Keep This person is relevant enough with all of his media appearances and news. His fanbase alone should make the page be kept. This is just like the Tatianna incident where its deleted because of people saying "I like it" instead of relevance (which is NOT accurate whatsoever, that liking from everyone is exactly what makes it relevant, I will never understand that deleter's logic.) This page should not be deleted. Ratherbe2000 —Preceding undated comment added 19:26, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- There was no "Tatianna incident" — that discussion was handled correctly, because simply being on a reality show is not in and of itself a Wikipediable notability claim. A reality show contestant has to either win the show, or be demonstrable as notable for other reasons besides the show, to be considered notable — show-related coverage itself is not enough to make a reality show contestant notable if they didn't win the show, because every reality show contestant could always provide show-related coverage.
Bearcat (
talk) 19:50, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- Did I say it was from her being on a reality show? No. Her music career also gives Tatianna notability (Not to mention her social media following is much bigger than some, if not most, of other queens with Wikipedia pages.) Plus all of her webshow appearances and guest spots on media with other queens, etc. She did deserve that page. (and putting on all those italics was frankly hard to take seriously.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ratherbe2000 ( talk • contribs) 06:42, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
- There was no "Tatianna incident" — that discussion was handled correctly, because simply being on a reality show is not in and of itself a Wikipediable notability claim. A reality show contestant has to either win the show, or be demonstrable as notable for other reasons besides the show, to be considered notable — show-related coverage itself is not enough to make a reality show contestant notable if they didn't win the show, because every reality show contestant could always provide show-related coverage.
Bearcat (
talk) 19:50, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- Redirect to RuPaul's Drag Race (season 9). Brocicle ( talk) 22:05, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- Keep. The subject clearly meets GNG. There's individual coverage in OUT, them., NYMag, VH1, Huffington Post, LogoTV, Comedy Central, Metro, and the list goes on. She's also not just a reality television personality by appearing on two separate seasons of RPDR; she's also a singer and performs regularly as a drag queen, with a drag house named after her. -- Kbabej ( talk) 22:44, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- Every queen on any season of RPDR always generates some WP:ROUTINE coverage in that context — it speaks to the overall notability of the show, not the separate notability of each individual queen, because every single person who appears on any reality show at all would always clear GNG if that automatic show-related coverage itself were enough. Our rule for reality shows is that a person is not automatically notable enough for a Wikipedia article just for the fact of being on the show in and of itself, not even if they come back for a second kick at the can in an all-stars season — the person who wins a reality show season is the only one who gets to be considered notable because of the show per se, while any other contestant still has to demonstrate preexisting notability, or build post-show notability, in exactly the same way as a person who was never on the show at all. And no, existing as a musician isn't an automatic notability freebie either — for her music to make her notable enough for an article, she would have to be sourceable to media coverage (not just her music's iTunes pages) about her accomplishing something with it that satisfied WP:NMUSIC. Bearcat ( talk) 19:50, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- Keep.
Comment for now.Although I'm inclined to agree with Bearcat that it's too much of a stretch to say she fulfills WP:NMUSIC, she does IMO satisfy criteria 1 and 2 of WP:ENT.
- Re: Criterion 1: She has had a major role in both a regular season of RPDR and a season of RPDR: All Stars, which, strictly speaking, are two distinct series and are treated as such on Wikipedia. But that may be splitting hairs, so let's consider them a single series for argument's sake. She's also presently on an international solo tour [7], which is not a routine consequence of being on Drag Race and is indeed something many RPDR contestants never go on to do. External press coverage of the tour is slim, but digging through venue-created social media events reveals that at least her first three European shows of 2018 were sold out (seen on the cover photo of the Finnish shows [8] and in the venue's comment on the Norwegian event "AJA eventet er utsolgt!!!" = "The AJA event is sold out" [9]). This segues into criterion 2.
- Re: Criterion 2: Her sizable social media following (71.2K on Twitter [10], 631K on Instagram [11]) and multiple sold-out international tour dates would seem to make a good case for having "a large fan base or a significant 'cult' following" per WP:ENT.
- IMO none of the above-mentioned accomplishments is individually enough to establish notability, but I'd say the combination of all of them probably suffices: the non-Drag Race-related coverage (in my earlier comment, including Billboard mentioning one of her songs and some press on her drag house), her small music career outside the show, her ongoing successful international solo drag tour ( WP:ENT 1), her large following ( WP:ENT 2), and—on top of those things—her RPDR-related coverage in major US and international news outlets.
- I expect someone to comment on the fact that the only sources I found about her tour are Facebook and Twitter (and merchant websites, which I haven't linked here), so I just want to clarify: I know those things don't constitute coverage and are therefore not in and of themselves sufficient to establish notability, but I believe it is relevant to at least note them as a relevant piece of a bigger picture. They do, at a minimum, provide some evidence of the independent career of someone who initially rose to fame because of RPDR.
- I also want to comment that I've noticed Another Believer and others are doing a nice job sourcing and expanding the article, and it has already improved a lot since it was nominated for deletion. Armadillopteryx talk 21:53, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- Decided to switch my vote back to a comment for now. Per
WP:BASIC sources related to her tour and following can provide content but not count toward establishing notability, meaning proof toward
WP:ENT is weak. Will refrain from voting either way for now to see what other sources are added.
Armadillopteryx
talk 23:03, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- This is good analysis, and I realize we can't crystal ball, but we might also keep in mind that Aja is only going to receive more coverage as the result of RPDR: All Stars. Also, I believe she is recording more music, so there's likely more updating there soon, too. ---
Another Believer (
Talk) 01:50, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- That's also a good point. Further coverage is essentially certain and imminent, though it still remains to be seen whether that coverage will focus much on what she does outside of RPDR. Apparently she's releasing a new single in a week, though
[12]. I would say that since there is a high probability that this article's sourcing situation will change in the immediate future, perhaps the most sensible thing to do would also be the easiest and most conservative: wait a few weeks before making a final decision on this AfD, or close this one but open another if sourcing doesn't improve soon. Deleting and almost immediately re-creating the article, which is reasonably likely, seems like it would be a lot more trouble than it's worth.
Armadillopteryx
talk 10:25, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Updated to keep. The article and its sourcing have expanded considerably, now including secondary coverage that is both WP:ROUTINE and non-routine. It's shaping up nicely, and I'd be pleased to see it stay. Armadillopteryx talk 21:14, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- That's also a good point. Further coverage is essentially certain and imminent, though it still remains to be seen whether that coverage will focus much on what she does outside of RPDR. Apparently she's releasing a new single in a week, though
[12]. I would say that since there is a high probability that this article's sourcing situation will change in the immediate future, perhaps the most sensible thing to do would also be the easiest and most conservative: wait a few weeks before making a final decision on this AfD, or close this one but open another if sourcing doesn't improve soon. Deleting and almost immediately re-creating the article, which is reasonably likely, seems like it would be a lot more trouble than it's worth.
Armadillopteryx
talk 10:25, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- This is good analysis, and I realize we can't crystal ball, but we might also keep in mind that Aja is only going to receive more coverage as the result of RPDR: All Stars. Also, I believe she is recording more music, so there's likely more updating there soon, too. ---
Another Believer (
Talk) 01:50, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Decided to switch my vote back to a comment for now. Per
WP:BASIC sources related to her tour and following can provide content but not count toward establishing notability, meaning proof toward
WP:ENT is weak. Will refrain from voting either way for now to see what other sources are added.
Armadillopteryx
talk 23:03, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- Keep She passes WP:ENTERTAINER. She is a popular drag queen who does global tours, has a large fan following, and has been a major contestant on Rupaul's Drag Race for two seasons. Lonehexagon ( talk) 22:29, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
- Keep significant coverage, passes WP:ENTERTAINER. L293D ( ☎ • ✎) 13:24, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.