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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus without prejudice for refiling. The reality is this AfD was started before Joe Biden stepped down from running. This changed the character of the debate, which can be witnessed in subsequent comments posted after the withdrawal. Evaluating this without that consideration, I'd conclude no consensus. There is clearly not enough sway in favor of delete, but merge and keep both make strong arguments. Thus, I evaluate as no consensus now, but if after an appropriate delay (I'd wait a few weeks at least) someone wishes to re-file this, there shouldn't be objections to doing so‎. Hammersoft ( talk) 19:20, 25 July 2024 (UTC) reply

Age and health concerns of Joe Biden

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Age and health concerns of Joe Biden (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
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Unnecessary content fork, inappropriate WP:SPINOFF, hyper-fixating on the news-of-the-hour. There's nothing here that cannot be covered by a short mention at Joe Biden, and a bit more at Joe Biden 2024 presidential campaign. Note that there was once at attempt at a similar article for Mr. Trump, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Health of Donald Trump. Zaathras ( talk) 12:20, 11 July 2024 (UTC) reply

This page was last edited on 25 July 2024, at 15:08. 0000|talk]]) 00:10, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

@ SmolBrane: The significance of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Health of Donald Trump is not with respect to the tit-for-tat issue, but with respect to the specific points of discussion raised there that are applicable to this discussion, specifically the assertion made in that discussion that we should not have any freestanding articles on the health of current public figures, and that Wikipedia should follow the Goldwater Rule prohibiting medical professionals from commenting on the health of public figures who they have not personally examined. A great many participants in that discussion supported imposing such a rule, which would obviously vitiate inclusion of comparable medical opinions about Biden absent personal examination. I opposed the imposition of that rule in the Trump discussion, and would oppose it here equally. We are in an historic moment of having two octogenarian presidential candidates, and the Trump article, at the time of its deletion, had dozens of high-level sources commenting on issues with regard to Trump's health, so it is a fair bellwether for the admissibility of the Biden article. BD2412 T 18:40, 11 July 2024 (UTC) reply
I am simply uncomfortable turning this AfD into a discussion about that other guy's AfD. WP:WAX applies and I'm not convinced the situation with Biden is adequately symmetrical for Health of Donald Trump !votes here. Once this discussion closes we could have a similar one regarding Trump imo. Note that Biden wasn't mentioned once on the Trump AfD. Regards SmolBrane ( talk) 19:01, 11 July 2024 (UTC) reply
@ SmolBrane: The shared underlying questions remain open, however. 1) Should Wikipedia have articles on the "health" of living public figures at all? 2) Should Wikipedia be bound by the Goldwater Rule, which prohibits reporting opinions on the heath of individuals by persons who have not conducted an examination of those individuals? BD2412 T 02:20, 12 July 2024 (UTC) reply
The irony being--the Goldwater Rule article on this wiki allocates its largest section to a particular former American president(and no one else), observed by someone on the talk page as essentially a coat rack. The goldwater discussion should occur elsewhere if it's going to be a policy. This is headed for a speedy close. SmolBrane ( talk) 00:00, 13 July 2024 (UTC) reply
With how his health and age might end his time in office, I think you have to keep it. Vinnylospo ( talk) 00:00, 12 July 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep with the insistence that it be improved to the point of being brought in line with the encyclopedic nature and aims of Wikipedia. I was a proponent of the creation of this article, but it really was launched too quickly and improperly. As I said on the talk page for Mr Biden's campaign, it's good if it enables us to analyze his health and its implications quickly and in real time, in a way that wasn't possible in the time of Franklin Delano Roosevelt and the highly consequential nature of his health, but it can't be treated as a joking matter. At the very least, better must be done for a leading image than to employ a picture of Mr. Biden standing before his lit eighty-first-birthday cake. 216.255.100.62 ( talk) 17:32, 11 July 2024 (UTC) reply
That's representative of a strategy from the administration and campaign - treat the age issue with humor. We aren't saying it's funny or not funny, it's just emblematic of part of their strategy and consequently part of the page. Maybe not first image, though. MarkiPoli ( talk) 17:51, 11 July 2024 (UTC) reply
The article is part of a research project, not a marketing campaign.
So long as it's here... Tyrekecorrea ( talk) 21:09, 11 July 2024 (UTC) reply
I will move this image further down to the part of the article which refers to the White House response (I think the joke birthday is relevant there). Feel free to choose another image for the lead and add some further detail if you see fit. GnocchiFan ( talk) 19:25, 11 July 2024 (UTC) reply
I'm rubbish at image procurement and insertion. Anyway, wouldn't the thing to do for an article like this normally be to use a picture of him that would normally be used otherwise, his official portrait or a picture of him stumping, or something of the like? Tyrekecorrea ( talk) 21:12, 11 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Currently, it really looks like we're are playing politics in favor of other candidate. However, after making the article more neutral (adding opinions about the lack of health obstacles, of which there are many) and perhaps changing the title ("Age and health of Joe Biden"?, "Health of Joe Biden"?), the article can be kept. The topic is very widely discussed, attracts attention and causes consequences at the center of the election campaign, unlike in the case of Donald Trump. Wikipek ( talk) 19:28, 11 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Happy to change to Age and health of Joe Biden when this AfD is over. GnocchiFan ( talk) 19:38, 11 July 2024 (UTC) reply
  • The thing is that the course of the conversation concerning the health of Mr. Biden is such that discussion on his age is going to be part of and in tandem with discussion about his health, since the end she has already attained has implications for his current health, and maintaining it is key to furthering his age. Since the two subjects have been introduced as a duality, the thing to do is to build both aspects up, so that each can facilitate the furtherance of the other. Tyrekecorrea ( talk) 21:18, 11 July 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep and restore Health of Donald Trump - Both have received significant coverage in reliable sources and are likely to do so well before and after the current debate news cycle. ~ Politicdude ( About me, talk, contribs) 18:34, 11 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Agree with above Keep both. Fodient ( talk) 20:50, 11 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Those subjects don't have a whole lot to do with one another. How can they stand as a solid unit together, and how would it not eventually makes sense to split them as the topics are grow too big to fit into one article going forward? Tyrekecorrea ( talk) 21:33, 11 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Without the media coverage and analysis that has transpired over the past 2 weeks, this topic would not be notable enough to warrant an article under WP:GNG. The reason why this article would be considered notable is because of the June presidential debate, and the flood of consistent news coverage, discussions, and analysis that transpired after the fact. This is plainly evident in the fact that 12 of the 34 citations in this article were written in the past 2 weeks alone. This article is also relied upon to provide the background for Calls for Joe Biden to suspend his 2024 United States presidential campaign. Therefore, it makes sense that these articles should be merged, with this article serving the purpose of providing appropriate context. If the article becomes too unwieldy, it would likely be due to the constant stream of new calls for Biden to step aside, which could remain separate in an article reminiscent of List of Democrats who oppose the Joe Biden 2024 presidential campaign. Baldemoto ( talk) 21:47, 11 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Whoever closes that should close this Bluethricecreamman ( talk) 18:45, 12 July 2024 (UTC) reply
  • As just an occasional contributor to English-language Wikipedia (active mainly in German-language WP and on Commons), I will formally abstain here (as I'm not familiar enough with en-WP's practices), but my impression is that this article as well as Calls for Joe Biden to suspend his 2024 United States presidential campaign are rather short (when compared to the Joe Biden main article), not many language versions of Wikipedia have decided to split these topics into separate articles (in this case, only French and Finnish Wikipedia, and in the case of the other article, only Icelandic), and it would make more sense IMHO to incorporate them into the main article and Joe Biden 2024 presidential campaign. Gestumblindi ( talk) 20:36, 12 July 2024 (UTC) reply
    I think that's the correct place for this information as well. I think I remembered hearing that Ronald Reagan had age and health concerns at the end of his presidency, but I can't see that article being kept if it were created now. SportingFlyer T· C 09:40, 13 July 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep This topic was already a subject of discussion in the media before the June 2024 debate, but this topic & the closely related topic Calls for Joe Biden to suspend his 2024 United States presidential campaign have been sucking all the air out of the room ever since then. At least in America's news media, concerns over Biden's age (and by extension his political future) even managed to palpably overshadow the news about the stunning election results in the UK and France. It's hard to argue this is a non notable subject. I'm surprised this is even at AfD.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 01:29, 13 July 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Delete and merge with preexisting pages on the topic, most notably on the Joe Biden and Joe Biden 2024 presidential campaign pages, or any of the other pages mentioned by previous commenters. BootsED ( talk) 03:35, 16 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Delete obvious politically motivated content fork. Traumnovelle ( talk) 05:58, 16 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Thanks for that context, BD2412, i don't think "Health of Donald Trump" is anywhere remotely similar, but i need an article titled Does J.D. Vance Know Trump Almost Had His Last Vice President Killed? to feel this should stay. I fully admit to having a very biased view of Trump, which is also 100% correct.-- Milowent • has spoken 18:09, 17 July 2024 (UTC) reply
I have not seen any media coverage anywhere about J.D. Vance's knowledge of Trump supposedly wanting to have his previous vice president killed. On the other hand, Joe Biden's age and health has been a central part of his public image and presidency, and it has indeed resulted in the end of his re-election campaign. Maurnxiao ( talk) 09:41, 22 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist [2]. It should be a very long article, if nothing else but to warn Usha that she might be a widow. In any event, Biden's decision to not seek the nomination really make a lot of the discussion of a few days ago irrelevant, i see a huge trend to merge which i don't oppose.-- Milowent • has spoken 17:36, 23 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Not everything needs an article Cwater1 ( talk) 23:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC) reply
I agree with that, indeed False or misleading statements by Donald Trump is already an incredibly long article and some people are saying it will become our longest article ever. We will see.-- Milowent • has spoken 17:35, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Strong keep, this article has received steady coverage for quite some time now. Concerns over Biden's health have been raised since the start of his 2020 campaign, it's hardly "news-of-the-hour". Additionally, Wikipedia is built off consensus, not precedent. The deletion of a similar article on Trump is irrelevant.
Slamforeman ( talk) 01:20, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. There is so much independent coverage of this that it clearly passes WP:GNG as a standalone topic. I am not concerned that this falls into WP:NOTNEWS as this has been an ongoing concern since the previous election, and as BD2412 pointed out, there are articles on the health of other leaders whose time has long passed. The last concern is whether this ends up being a WP:POVFORK, but I don't see why careful editing cannot end up in a balanced take on the subject, and merging with another article does not really change this. Overall, I do not think there is a strong policy rationale to delete the article. Malinaccier ( talk) 15:49, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Doczilla Ohhhhhh, no! 17:58, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply

  • Delete As it stands, this article offers little information but a lot of text. We all know about his gaffes and general mental decline. Yet, this article cites the same points over and offer and lists an endless amount of examples. All of this can be presented in small and condensed form and give the same amount of information. -- DasallmächtigeJ ( talk) 18:23, 19 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Keep as it has been an integral part of Biden's public image as president and contributed almost single handedly to Biden's withdrawal from the 2024 election. This will be, I believe, a pillar of his legacy. Maurnxiao ( talk) 18:35, 21 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Keep WP:HEY might be in effect since these health concerns contributed to him dropping out of the race. Unnamed anon ( talk) 20:09, 21 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Actually Merge a page was written specifically about Biden's withdrawal after I wrote this, and I think this content is better suited there. Unnamed anon ( talk) 23:52, 21 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Merge into Withdrawal of Joe Biden from the 2024 United States presidential election. HadesTTW (he/him •  talk) 20:29, 21 July 2024 (UTC) reply
I second this merge idea. -- Dynamo128 ( talk) 20:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC) reply
If it is to stay it should be more comprehensive relating to his health such as mentioning the multiple brain aneurisms that he was afflicted with back in the 80's. As of right now it's mostly just about his age and health concerns as of solely his Presidency not actually relating to the totality of Biden's health concerns. LosPajaros ( talk) 00:08, 22 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Merge into Withdrawal of Joe Biden from the 2024 United States presidential election §§  Background​ and Progression. The two articles have the same topic and scope, with this one just having a more detailed background. Otherwise, this just looks like a deletable attack page redundant to the withdrawal article. 174.92.25.207 ( talk) 10:03, 22 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Merge with the Withdrawal page now that it has happened. The calls for him to drop out article has already been merged into it. I also think the list of Democrats who were opposed to his campaign should also be merged into the withdrawal article, but that's tangential to this discussion. Schiffy ( Speak to me| What I've done) 13:12, 22 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Merge in the absence of a Jed Bartlet-style diagnosis cover-up. Danish Ranger ( talk) 14:11, 22 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Keep - event was the primary reason Joe stopped running! This is notable
DimensionalFusion (talk) 14:52, 22 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Merge and delete into Withdrawal of Joe Biden from the 2024 United States presidential election for relevant information about Biden's age and health as it affected his withdrawal. Unnecessary information, such as anecdotes or unverified information, can be deleted. JohnAdams1800 ( talk) 15:24, 22 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Merge into article Withdrawal article. Rambling Rambler ( talk) 18:54, 22 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Keep It's deeply relevant and concerning that an obviously senile, incapacitated man is the leader of the world's sole superpower. This has been hot button topic for many years so a merge is illogical. This is a huge issue and warrants its own article. It's more than notable enough. JDiala ( talk) 21:02, 22 July 2024 (UTC) reply
@ JDiala: So should there be a similar article for Trump, who is another obviously senile individual, rambling on about sharks and such? He could be the next US president after all; I'm sure there are lots of concerns about Trump's age-related troubles, and his daily inability to tell the truth or recall basic facts. Trump's problems are well covered by reliable sources, too! 72.14.126.22 ( talk) 17:17, 24 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Keep Although the article can be merged, this is an important issue of public concern that goes beyond the President's withdrawal from the election. People were concerned with the President's as far back as 2019, and this article can provide detailed background information for future students of history or for today's followers of current events. asi1998 ( talk) 21:05, 22 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Agree, it is only notable in terms of the election suitability controversy, which we can now refer to as the withdrawal event and easily merge it to that. Jtbobwaysf ( talk)
  • Keep content but Merge with the withdrawal article per arguments above. There should be lots of titles like 'Age of Joe Biden' etc. which redirect to that page
Kowal2701 ( talk) 20:34, 24 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Merge with Withdrawal of Joe Biden from the 2024 United States presidential election and Joe Biden page since health concerns were the biggest motivation for his withdrawal and I agree with the nominator that it is WP:SPINOFF and I found it to be a little too close to WP:BLPBALANCE. too_much curiosity ( talk) 23:19, 24 July 2024 (UTC) reply
  • Keep: well articulated, but try not to lose the neutral point of view WP:NPOV.
QalasQalas ( talk) 11:24, 25 July 2024 (UTC) reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Age_and_health_concerns_of_Joe_Biden&oldid=1237078289"

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