The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Merge to various places. There's pretty good consensus here that most of these don't need stand-alone articles. There's a bit of a WP:TRAMWRECK here, which makes it difficult to figure out which ones fit into most.

The general opinion seems to be merge somewhere, but there's no good agreement on exactly how that merge should work. User:DanTD's scheme seems logical, but I'll leave the details up to whoever performs the merge. Leave redirects behind in all cases.

Lastly, if anybody can identify particular stations which are indeed notable on their own, feel free to break them back out into their own (properly sourced) article. Just don't take that as carte blanche to revert them all. -- RoySmith (talk) 00:36, 6 March 2018 (UTC) reply

36th and Market station

36th and Market station (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)

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This page, along with numerous others, depict small stops along SEPTA's Subway-Surface Lines. The majority of these above-ground stops have no physical facilities or shelter, no curb, and only merely a small sign. It is nothing more than a bus stop, which I do not believe makes it notable enough for each stop to have its own page. Additionally, the stop pages are all stubs -- there is no content that cannot be displayed in a station list for the line. I would propose further to delete all above-ground non-major "stations" in the category Category:SEPTA Subway–Surface Trolley Line stations. — C16SH ( speak up) 06:07, 26 February 2018 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. The Mighty Glen ( talk) 06:09, 26 February 2018 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Pennsylvania-related deletion discussions. The Mighty Glen ( talk) 06:09, 26 February 2018 (UTC) reply

• Delete all of these were recently created and are not notable on their own, and we don't typically list non-notable tram stops. SportingFlyer ( talk) 06:22, 26 February 2018 (UTC) reply

• Note: I am also nominating the following related pages under the same rationale. — C16SH ( speak up) 06:33, 26 February 2018 (UTC) reply

• Merge all into a listicle, with short sections for each station. This also raises the question of San Francisco's Muni Metro system, which has a lot of stub articles for its surface stops (which appear similar to these SEPTA stops...no signage, no platform). Toronto has a similar system but its streetcar stops are not given separate articles. Sounder Bruce 07:43, 26 February 2018 (UTC) reply
• Note: If this goes, the three below should go as well. If the articles go, all surface MUNI Metro stops should go as well, since those are all stubs with copy-paste info/sources as well. (We just need to make sure the gps coords stay intact in some way.) Cards84664 (talk) 13:30, 26 February 2018 (UTC) reply

• Delete all of the non-notable above-ground Subway Surface station articles listed above. Only the articles about the stations in the tunnel or the major terminal/loop stations should be retained. Most of these articles aren't really stations but rather just a sign on the sidewalk the trolley stops at. Dough 4872 14:36, 26 February 2018 (UTC) reply
• Comment San Francisco's Muni Metro (and Boston's Green Line, which is similar) are considered light rail, which is a big step above trolleys like this. If these articles go, it doesn't necessarily follow that either of those must. Light rail stations are generally notable. Trolley stations generally are not. (San Francisco does have trolley stations, which are not notable and do not have articles, but this is separate from the Muni Metro.) And judging by the photos, the Muni Metro stations do have platforms and signage, unlike these. Smartyllama ( talk) 20:26, 27 February 2018 (UTC) reply
• Delete the SEPTA articles in light of my above comments, but I would object to deletion of the Muni Metro articles if they were nominated. Light rail systems and trolley systems are not the same thing. Smartyllama ( talk) 20:44, 27 February 2018 (UTC) reply

@ Smartyllama: What does that have to do with anything? Both Muni and Septa have some stops with platforms, and some without. They both have articles with copy paste info. A majority of articles for both are stubs. Cards84664 (talk) 22:36, 27 February 2018 (UTC) reply

@ Cards84664: Being a stub isn't a reason for deletion. And Muni includes way more than the Metro. All the Metro stations have platforms, as best I can tell. Many of the Muni stations in other modes (like the actual trolley, which the Metro isn't) do not. If you have evidence to the contrary, show it. Smartyllama ( talk) 00:18, 28 February 2018 (UTC) reply

@ Smartyllama: Can you clarify what you're asking for? I think you're getting Septa and Muni terminology mixed up. Cards84664 (talk) 02:47, 28 February 2018 (UTC) reply

@ Cards84664: Muni Metro is light rail according to the Wikipedia article on it. Light rail stations are generally notable. The SEPTA articles in question are trolleys, which are several steps below light rail in terms of significance. The Trolleybuses in San Francisco are also maintained by Muni, but are not part of the Metro. Muni's the controlling transit authority, the San Francico version of SEPTA. They operate notable stations and non-notable ones, depending on the mode. Light rail and trolleys are simply not equivalent. I believe light rail is referred to as trolley in some parts of Europe, but in the United States, trolleys refer to another, less notable mode of transportation. Smartyllama ( talk) 13:40, 28 February 2018 (UTC) reply

• Comment. No, we don't need to keep any stop which is just a stop (e.g. a sign and possibly a seat and/or shelter). We only keep actual stations. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 14:12, 28 February 2018 (UTC) reply

( edit conflict) @ Smartyllama: Besides your opinion, what makes trolley stations less notable than light rail? Both of these systems have a subway. Both systems have some stops with platforms: here and here. Both systems have some stops without platforms: here and here. Both systems have an electric overhead wire. In the above discussion, Dough4872 mentioned that most of the SEPTA surface stops are just signs on a sidewalk. Note that most of the muni surface stops are just yellow stripes on a pole. Just because the vehicle looks older, doesn't mean the notability is any different. (While in transition, the GCRTA once used PCC streetcars and Breda Light rail vehicles at the same time.) Cards84664 (talk) 14:52, 28 February 2018 (UTC) reply

Fair enough. I'm striking my above !vote and changing it below in light of this. Smartyllama ( talk) 15:01, 28 February 2018 (UTC) reply

• Keep As Cards84664 pointed out, some of these stations are significant, while others may be less so. Nominating them all en masse is not a solution. If anyone has reasons why any individual station is non-notable, they can nominate it individually, but simply saying as a blanket statement that every single surface station is non-notable regardless of its significance in the system is clearly wrong. Smartyllama ( talk) 15:00, 28 February 2018 (UTC) reply
• Undecided We need to decide if only some are notable, or none are notable (i.e. stops/stations on private right-of-ways here and here. Cards84664 (talk) 15:05, 28 February 2018 (UTC) reply

@ Necrothesp: Another note, in terms of stop notability, what should be done with the DC Streetcar articles? Cards84664 (talk) 17:19, 28 February 2018 (UTC) reply

I wouldn't know. I don't know the system. But if its stops aren't real stations then they should be deleted too. This is our standard practice. There are thousands of tram stops in European cities and many thousands more former stops on defunct tram systems throughout the world that don't (and shouldn't) have articles for just this reason. They're no different from bus stops. No reason any favouritism should be shown to existing American tram stops. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 11:38, 1 March 2018 (UTC) reply

Light rail is not the same as tram. Light rail systems are higher capacity and higher speed. Whether that matters for notability is a matter for discussion, but let's make sure we're coming at this with accurate premises, please. Smartyllama ( talk) 14:15, 1 March 2018 (UTC) reply

Yes, I'm aware of that. But if light rail systems have street-running stops then they're not really operating as light rail systems in that section of the system, since by definition street-running cannot be at light rail speed - that requires an exclusive right of way - and the SEPTA Subway–Surface Trolley Lines and DC Streetcar do not appear to be classified as light rail systems in any case, so I'm not sure of the relevance to this discussion. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 10:33, 2 March 2018 (UTC) reply

• Comment I suggest moving all SF Muni/light rail discussion to another venue, like WT:WikiProject Stations. Streetcar stops are probably not notable, and some systems are definitely straddling the line between streetcar and proper light rail, so it should be determined on a case-by-case basis. Sounder Bruce 07:21, 1 March 2018 (UTC) reply

@ SounderBruce: Sounds like a good idea to keep this page from getting too long, since the only differences between Septa, Muni and DC are the vehicles used. Cards84664 (talk) 16:03, 1 March 2018 (UTC) reply

• Merge into a list of SEPTA trolley stops, and redirect the articles there. If any of these stations becomes more notable in the future, then the previous content could also be used for context. epicgenius ( talk) 16:48, 1 March 2018 (UTC) reply

I was struggling to determine notability for every single station when proposing this deletion, but I think merging them into a list makes the most sense. — C16SH ( speak up) 19:42, 2 March 2018 (UTC) reply

• Merge into the lists of trolley stops, except for the loops, portal-based stations, major stations, and termini. In other words Darby Transportation Center, Yeadon Loop (SEPTA station), Mt. Moriah (SEPTA station), 63rd and Malvern Loop (SEPTA station), Eastwick Loop (SEPTA station), Elmwood Carhouse (SEPTA station), Angora Loop (SEPTA station), 40th Street Portal (SEPTA station), 37th Street (SEPTA station), 36th Street Portal (SEPTA station), Sansom Commons/36th Street (SEPTA station), and everything underground should stay. I can consider the loops along SEPTA Route 15 as well, as any loops along any restored lines. 49th and Woodland (SEPTA station) should be kept under the condition that the connection to the Woodand Carhouse. --------- User:DanTD ( talk) 01:10, 5 March 2018 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.