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Thanks for you comments on the talk page, I think that you are absolutely right about the article not having enough information about how this research has been used. I have made some changes that I hope will improve it, both to the main article and to this article: Race and intelligence (Utility of research) There is still a lot of work to be done... if you aren't still busy, I'd love to have your help on this project. I've found a few sources and made some suggestions here: [1]
Hope to see you around! futurebird 16:54, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
The talk page is pretty useless at this point. It's mostly arguments going in circles. What really makes a difference is adding sourced information and adding sources to information that is already there. And watching out for the sneaky ways people try to delete content that clashes with their thesis. futurebird 02:06, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
[[Two Curve Bell with Jobs.jpg|thumb|300px|A single bell curve like these two was featured on the cover of the controversial [1] [2] book on race and intelligence The Bell Curve. Some regard this book as solid science, while others consider it a modern example of scientific racism. [3] [4] These are idealized normal curves comparing the IQs of Blacks and Whites in the US in 1981. [5]]] They used to have a caption like this... but, it's been removed, I don't want to get in to an edit war over this, but don't you think that if these curves are at the top of the page, they need a little historical context? Another question is if the curves are really representivitive of the content of the article at this point? It'd help a lot of you'd share your thoughts on issues like this at the talk page. futurebird 03:22, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
If you come across any data in studies that you think would make a nice graph, let me know and I can plot it out and make it look pretty for wikipedia. I don't have any means of searching papers except for this: http://scholar.google.com/ it's free, and I've found it to be a big help. futurebird 03:24, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Please weigh in on this IfD [2] futurebird 06:21, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
This editor has Gone Dancing For now the attraction of non-virtual reality has triumphed. Enjoy your time on Wikipedia. SmithBlue 08:28, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
ASA. Desperate help needed on islamophobic article Ramadan riots which is actually the same thing as French riots. Claims that the french unrest in the ghetoes was motivated by hatred of jews and christians as allegedly commanded by the quran. Support speedy deletion. Aaliyah Stevens 00:11, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
A RfC has been started regarding the use of sources (including Metropolis) as "exceptional claims" on the above article. As an previously interested party, your input would be most valued. Comment Talk:Nick_Baker_(prisoner_in_Japan)#Request_for_comments. Thank you. David Lyons 05:47, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Better? If you've got a better way of improving the wording, go ahead. It would have been easier for you to just do it, had you had a better way of clarifying things, I'm at the limit of my knowledge. WLU 10:53, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi SB,
I don't really know what you're asking me for on my talk page with your newest post, as far as finding a professional goes, they're usually hard to come by. For further improvements, there's always WP:RFC or requesting input from WP:MED. I've put in a request at WP:M, so maybe that'll get some attention. WLU 12:31, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
I have replied to the comment you left on my talk page. Honestly, while I appreciate your suggestion and opinion, I do not agree with you. I quoted said vandalism for various reasons which I have outlined in my reply in an effort to defend myself. Whether you deem them 'good' reasons or not, is a matter of opinion. The reasons are as they are, and at the time I deemed them good. Personally, I'm really not worried about random people taking quoted graffiti it out context and jumping to conclusions about me. Furthermore, I am of the opinion that intent makes something hateful or offensive, not the words themselves, and I did not quote them with ill-intent towards anyone. But as its presence bothered you, and enough time has passed that my edit is no longer the current one, I have removed the quoted graffiti from my comments. Thank you for your input. -- Dee 12:08, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
thrhsCite error: The <ref>
tag has too many names (see the
help page).
Sorry, rather busy, but I do have some suggestions. WP:EA is a good place to find an experienced editor who can give advice, if not necessarily join in. You'll find a more activist group, I think, at Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts. And if that isn't sufficient, you might check the index - try "Assistance", "Content disputes", and/or "Personal behavior". -- John Broughton (♫♫) 13:37, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
The term "Recovered Memory Therapy" ceased being controversial years ago. The exact term can be seen in many of the recent sources on the RMT page, and is used within the legal community and by forensic psychiatrists, etc. Not to mention reputable publications such as Scientific American. If it was still controversial they wouldn't be using it. This has been discussed at length on the talk page. Cheers MatthewTStone ( talk) 10:23, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Unsourced material prevents other editors from checking factual accuracy and reliability of source. This prevents WP:WEIGHT being discussed and assigned knowledgably, which in turn prevents NPOV occuring. The major content editing mechanisms of Wikipedia are destroyed by unsourced material in an article.
The Wikipedia reader is presented with unverified (except by the inserter of unsourced material), unverifiable material from an unknown source. The emphasis place on the unsourced material is also unverified (except by the inserter of unsourced material) and unverifiable by the reader. Two options open to the reader are: 1. Be disempowered and accept the absolute authority of a single editor, or 2. Reject Wikipedia as a collection of unsourced opinions.
Unsourced material will also dilute and obscure properly edited, verified, weighted and NPOV material.
The policies and mechanisms of Wikipedia are designed to produce an accurate authorative encyclopedia;- unsourced material prevents this from occurring.
If producing an article only from sourced material can not satisfy an editor, that editor is free to publish satisfying material elsewhere. SmithBlue ( talk) 03:55, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Hiya "Sir". How goes it? I put 'Mercenary' under occupations in the infobox I added for Messer Hicks due to the fact that allegedly, according to the BBC at least, he admitted having worked as one for the KLA during the Serbian War in the Balkans. If someone fights for anybody, guerillas or government army that is not their own nationality (any not loyal to the Queen in the case of Commonwealth citizens), they should technically be descrbided as a mercenary... I will leave it up to you to decide if it is too tenuous an allegation. check it out here: [3] Rac fleming ( talk) 12:31, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Indeed it is illegal for Australian's to serve with any military or para-military organisation other than those loyal to the Queen, ie any of the 16 Commonwealth nations for whom she is still monarch. Apparently (so I have been told by a colleague who served in the Australian Army) they have to give up Australian citizenship to serve with US forces. However it doesn't stop it from happening, nor them working as mercs. Quite a few members of Sandline International who worked in New Guinea were Aussies, and quite illegal for them to do so. An intriguing case is the poor Aussies who are dual citizens with countries which have compulsory military service, such as Lebanon and Greece. It is illegal, as Australians, for them to serve in those nations military forces. But as dual citizens, both countries expect compulsory military service, and more than once Australian born men have got off the plane expecting to visit the 'old family' ony to be thrust into a uniform for 12 months. Sometimes forcibly. And they are very much breaking Australian law to do so!
It is a poorly defined occupation I guess. So I will go with your definition, and we will leave it off. I think him fighting for the KLA makes him a mercenary, but until I find a better definition that conclusively supports my case I will leave it. Have a good day.
Rac fleming ( talk) 13:52, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
I note that you are in what appears to be an d edit war with Prester John on the David Hicks article, you have reverted 3 times please consider yourself cautioned about WP:3RR and that you may be blocked. Gnan garra 02:31, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Dear SmithBlue: I had recently come across a very difficult-to-obtain primary document relating to the OPV-AIDS matter, which is not in the collection of any university library in the Boston area but a young researcher found an online copy for me on an obscure part of the WHO website in Geneva. Contemporaneously, I discovered that the National Library of Medicine added a whole new group of back journals to their on-line resources, apparently at the first of this year (there are many copyright issues involved that they apparently had to resolve).
Most scholars of the "vaccine wars" of the 1950s-1960s, whose polio-based combattants included Sabin/Salk/Koprowski/Lepine/Cox, point to the policies extending from this 1958 WHO document as largely driving the outcome of this "war"; only the vaccines of Sabin & Salk really met all the requirements the WHO laid down with these 1958 guidelines. One significant concern of the expert panel were worries about contaminating viruses that might be getting into polio vaccines.
Six months later, Sabin found a contaminating virus in Koprowski's polio vaccine being used in Congo, which he first brought to Koprowski's attention privately, but when Koprowski rejected Sabin's written entreaties -- Sabin then inserted his analysis into a major paper he was preparing for the British Medical Journal, which was published in March, 1958. It was a big deal at the time, and I wished to bring this forth too, as it is very relevant to the AIDS-OPV debate.
Anyway, wishing to share these reference "finds" with other Wikipedia users -- I spend some time composing a couple of paragraphs and getting all the citations correct and the links proper, giving no editorial comment, only some background. For balance, I added a few words from, and an actve link to, Koprowski's self-congratulatory review of his ten years of work on polio vaccines, which he published in the British Medical Journal in 1960.
Yet within hours, your fellow editor, MastCell, just eliminates the vast bulk of my contributions and many of the carefully crafted links to on-line and fully cited archival materials at WHO and NCBI. Previously, I have tried to engage MastCell on the discussion page -- but he always seems to have his own dogmatic (and out-of-date) point of view and he's sticking by it, no matter what. The gorilla DNA data I have cited do not sow doubts in his mind; the back-stepping of the primary investigators involved calling for a complete reanalysis of the phylogenetic classifications of HIV-1 doesn't make any difference -- I can only think he doesn't understand what these data imply. Instead, he repeatedly cites rhetoric published in journalistic (not peer-reviewed) articles and editorials in Nature 7-8 years ago and entertains little else.
Well, I myself have published in Nature as sole author on matters relating to DNA phylogenetics -- and I can assure you, the dogma of 7-8 years ago is not the thought of today. We are now just coming to a partial understanding of retroviral immunity through miRNAs and some totally new genetic mechanisms that are involved with HIV-1, which affect the earlier analysis of HIV's origin profoundly. This is surely "original research" which I make no attempt to mention in any of these Wikipedia entries; my collaborators would be quite angry with me if I did.
But well-accepted matters I do mention to MastCell that come straight from the pages of peer-reviewed journals but do not agree with his own interpretation instantly gets branded "original research" by him (in Wikipedia's sense) whether the journals cited are from last summer, last year, or half a century ago -- even if my argument mainly consists of direct quotes from the original authors!
Given MastCell's previous mindset and my lack of time to engage in endless (and fruitless) debates -- is there simply some higher authority to which to appeal? I have written my point-of-view on this recent matter in the discussion page but I know intransigence when I see it, thus I am not expecting that to resolve anything.
I wish I could be more respectful of MastCell but he/she has been less-than-respectful to me. It's not that I am not willing to modify my text to address concerns, but wholesale elimination with a brief (and disparaging) analysis is improper.
Any advice you might offer will be appreciated. Theophilus Reed ( talk) 23:50, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
SmithBlue: Thank you for your kind and understanding comments.
In regard to contaminants in vaccines -- from 1960, following discovery of SV40 in the Salk vaccine, to around 1995, when PCR-based (DNA) screens became widely used -- contaminants, particular viruses, were probably the #1 concern of vaccine makers and regulators worldwide for those vaccines made in tissue culture (i.e. polio, influenza, MMR, yellow-fever, etc.; virtually no vaccines introduced after 1980 are of this type). My old boss at the FDA has devoted his scientific career to this matter of increasing vaccine purity; in 2004, he was appointed by the British Parliament to his second term to the board that regulates all vaccines and biologicals made in the UK.
Thus pointing out the early concerns regarding contaminating viruses is surely appropriate. Polio was the first vaccine to be made in flask-based tissue culture (as opposed to chick embryos inside eggshells) and involved human or monkey tissue; most investigators of the 1950s didn't understand the potential biological "fire" they were playing with at that time. Salk, Sabin, and Koprowski all made mistakes, and each had contaminating viruses at one point or another in their preparations.
Fortunately, Salk's protocol was very conservative, such that the SV40 contaminant was generally inactivated (killed) before innoculation. Otherwise, the approximately 10-30% of Americans born before 1962 who received his SV-40 contaminated IPV vaccine would likely be suffering increased morbidity and mortality today, which they do not. In regard to Sabin's strains -- he eliminated the SV40 contaminant before the first approved preparation circulated in 1963, although there is some question about his strains used in Soviet-made preparations through 1980.
Anyway, I can more fully work this matter in to the historical documents (it is already described elsewhere in the article) and cite proper sources, for example: CDC site.
However, I know of no published response to Sabin's finding with the CHAT contamination that Koprowski made at the time, although I could cite a subsequent publication where he simply claims that his preparation was free of viral contaminants but without describing his assay methods or results. Already, there is a publication cited from Poinar et al that is the main scientific "refutation" of Sabin's finding -- but that work from 2001 never assayed any actual vaccine used in Congo, only several experimental preparations from the US and one from Sweden, thus it doesn't really address the issue at hand.
But these contamination matters in the 1950s are all key to the OPV story. Furthermore, I would prefer to cite the primary sources rather than the secondary ones such as Hooper's, simply because that is my style in general, and although Hooper is scholarly and quite competent -- his works carry baggage with some individuals.
In regard to the status-quo arguments refuting the OPV hypothesis -- I believe those are in a bit of flux, with what seems to be a bit of a breakdown between the younger, clinically oriented groups of the Belgian/French/UK/US consortium and the older-line PhD-trained PIs, who collectively created the whole "bushmeat" hypothesis around 1999. I think the younger/MD folks are increasingly coming to believe that fundamental misunderstandings in the origin/nature of HIV-1 has partly caused the scientific community to spin its wheels for a decade in developing an effective vaccine for HIV-1 and better treatments for AIDS; meanwhile, the pathogen is evolving into more virulent recombinants in some areas, such as in west/central Africa. But the older folks are sticking by their guns.
I will have to review that part of the article to think about how it might be improved in a way that I find not to be less than honest yet still advocate the status quo.
Meanwhile, how would you suggest I even try to work on such a text without attracting MastCell's edits?
Again, thanks for your prompt attention to this matter. Theophilus Reed ( talk) 03:24, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
SmithBlue:
I thank you for your attention to my concerns, and I have looked at the sandbox you have linked. Clearly, you have devoted lots of effort to improving the current article.
Unfortunately, I do not know if I have the time to work, in the short term, with such a major revision, as I have truly "original research" to do on related matters, as well as other professional concerns to which I must attend. Also, I think a narrative form, where one brings the reader down an informative path that is easy to read and comprehend, might be better for a casual reader than a timeline approach.
In regard to your devil's advocate points -- there aren't many records remaining from the 1950s about the CHAT campaign, which is rather odd, for there is an abundance of archival stuff relating to most major vaccine campaigns of this period, including frozen or lyophilized samples of the preparations in question; I've seen entire rooms of Sabin's archival material at Bldg 35 of NIH, for example. It's almost as if the record regarding CHAT has been "cleansed" -- to the point where relevant journal articles have been torn out of the bound volumes in the stacks of numerous medical-school libraries.
I know this sounds a bit paranoid and conspiratorial -- but virtually no records remain from all the research that went into a major vaccine effort, other than about a 10-20 papers in serial publications of the time that one can still find in various venues, a significant fraction of which I have already referenced in the Wikipedia entry. This is not normal; at the very least, there should be a large collection of laboratory notebooks of Koprowski and his colleagues -- but none have ever surfaced, despite an expert committee's supposed investigation of these matters in 1992-93.
Bear in mind that there are corporate and university interests that would suffer huge liabilities if this hypothesis should ever be proven; it is these forces (not governmental ones) that I would point towards regarding the odd situation surrounding the OPV-AIDS hypothesis. Clearly, the university and corporation where Koprowski worked at the time of the CHAT campaign are two entities with such worries (there are others as well) -- and their potential legal liability is obvious to anyone with even a passing familiarity with corporate or tort law. Ed Hooper has been bearing legal threats from these entities for years, and a number of prominent scientists who once engaged in this debate withdrew around 2000-1 under various forms of professional pressure.
In other words, what drives the anti-OPV forces are not so much scientists or senior investigators worried about their reputations; it's pure money, plain and simple, as no corporation or institution wishes to be held liable for causing the AIDS pandemic.
Slowly, these pressures have been lessening in recent years, as the corporate forces largely "won" the debate in 2000 in the minds of most scientists, particularly following the untimely death of Bill Hamilton of Oxford University.
Yet some younger, more clinically oriented scientists now seem frustrated with a lack of scientific progress and a general unwillingness to follow obvious leads regarding HIV-1 pathogenesis; the frustrated ones seem to be the research-oriented MDs who actually have to deal with AIDS victims. In a paper published last summer in the Journal of Virology, for example, a whole group of them showed data that the basic taxonomic organization of HIV-1 classification appears to be in error -- which means the very foundation on which the published phylogenetic analysis (and the "bushmeat" hypothesis) are built has serious structural problems.
Note that I too wish to lay low until more progress has been made in specific ongoing investigations regarding alternative interpretations of HIV phylogeny, thus I do not wish to get too involved in any high profile debate right now. Too much activity could attract unwanted attention and limit possibilities for scientific investigation.
Instead, what I had been hoping to do was make primary scientific resources readily available to curious investigators at all levels, combined with a good-quality and accurate descriptions of the overall hypothesis. There is a good chance that in 1-2 years' time, a variant form will come to the fore once again through peer-reviewed publications.
As this situation develops, wouldn't it be especially good for Wikipedia's reputation if it could serve as an independent and accurate source for important on-line information that helps drive society's interests forward in these regards without resorting to any sort of advocacy or other "agenda" different from Wikipedia's stated ethos and standard rules? Rather, simply the free exchange of up-to-date information and relevant data links would help get this done; no "original research" is required, as plenty of data is already available in the literature to explicate the circumstance.
If you actually analyze the papers that MastCell is fond of citing -- you would realize that despite the prestigious venues involved, the bushmeat hypothesis is based on fairly flimsy evidence, including a "molecular clock" analysis that is generally considered discredited today when used in other applications.
Their best data is the analysis of several archival samples of CHAT experimental materials analyzed in Svante Päabo's lab in Germany in 2000-1 -- but the stuff they analyzed is not the actual vaccine used in Congo; rather, the only known independent analysis of the actual vaccine used is Sabin's work of 1958-59.
Note it is also clear that certain details of Ed Hooper's hypothesis are likely in error -- you don't need actual chimpanzee kidney cultures to get the contaminating virus, for example, it can come through the serum routinely used in the culture media -- but detailed scientific points like this last one might legitimately be deemed "original research" thus wouldn't be appropriate for Wikipedia. Yet that error in Hooper's thesis is a legitimate criticism of his hypothesis and leads to the main genetic argument against him (i.e. the P.t.t. vs. P.t.s. ancestral form of SIVcpz being closer to HIV-1).
Facilitating the free exchange of accurate information already in scientific record is my sole agenda in this regard; note that governmental and WHO forces are also trying to make available on-line the relevant archival materials. Rather, it is largely self-interested corporate forces that continuously try to suppress this hypothesis, intimidate scientists, and clean-out libraries. You may not believe me in this regard -- but I think if you could get Simon Wain-Hobson, or David Ho, or Omar Bagasra, to speak candidly on this matter, their stories would shock you, as the pressures on them have not been subtle. Why do you think the Australian sociologist, Brian Martin, has devoted so much attention to studying this matter?
Yet bear in mind that 40 million people worldwide are infected with an incurable retroviral disease right now, which may grow to 80 million within a decade; already many tens of millions of people have died prematurely. It is immoral to knuckle under to largely parochial corporate forces who don't wish to be held liable for malfeasances from half-a-century ago that appears to have set in motion one of the larger tragedies of human history, as it stymies progress that might better address the situation.
Rather, as Justice Louis Brandeis once wrote and Justice William O. Douglas oft repeated, "Sunshine is the best disinfectant". It's hard to say what "justice" will ultimately be in this matter, but the suppression of relevant information by self-interested corporate forces and their old-guard allies is clearly a profound injustice for humankind. Theophilus Reed ( talk) 15:40, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
{{helpme}}
"""It should be pointed out that negotiating strategy and tactics for getting your POV (even if NPOV) into an article is considered inapproriate." .... — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 17:35, 15 December 2007 (UTC)""
Is this accurate? If you dont know how do I find out? Seems unbelievable that I can't dicuss how to deal with an editor who is not following WP:Policy. SmithBlue ( talk) 02:27, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for the encouragement with regard to my planned article on the Indonesian occupation of East Timor. I've been very busy with work relating to Honoré de Balzac, but knowing that someone out there wants me to work on the Timor page will convince me to push myself in that direction. Thanks again! – Scartol • Tok 13:32, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
On David Hicks editor PrestorJohn began to edit mispresenting the content of sources. [ [4]] and [ [5]] on January 13 and 14 2008, apparently within period mention in this block [ [6]]
A separate matter on David Hicks: User:Skyring/Pete replaces "without valid charge by the US gov under suspicion of involvement" or "by the US gov for involvement" using edit summs "(Not our place to judge. We report the facts.)" ,00:50, 23 January 2008, and, "(Remove opinion. See talk.)"18:23, 23 January 2008. Between these edits, Skyring displays lack of knowledge of issues [7]"Only if the charges are or were dismissed by a competent court can we call them invalid. You've got the US Supreme Court saying the charges were not valid? No? Well, don't presume to force your opinion on our readers, please. -- Pete (talk) 02:53, 23 January 2008 (UTC)". [8] On explaination of sources editor calls wording confusing. [9]And continues to delete/revert.
When asked to explain how the wording is confusing Skyring responds, "...But giving our readers the impression that he was just an innocent swept up by the military and tortured into confessing is giving an incorrect impression, and SmithBlue's wording leans towards that. A reader might think that he was held for five years without any charge at all...." When these concerns are specifically addressed editor replies, "Strawman. I said that your changes "lean toward" a certain view. I didn't say that you went all the way there, now did I?".
The statement, "I make the point that this is not new information you are trying to insert, and the current wording is the result of much discussion, compromise and consensus, with due recognition of Hicks' history." - Skyring 16:22, 25 January 2008 - appears inaccuarate and deliberately misleading. I can find nothing in the archives to substantiate a consensus on the intro that took "without valid charge "into account. I have asked for diffs but not supplied. Perhaps Skyring's comment "The version to which you object has the advantage of concensus, even if it is concensus by default because no editors objected enough to change it.", is meant to address this request for diffs?
Am I dealing with a disruptive editor in Skyring? What can I do so that I am not wasting time editing like this? Are there procedures that deal with editing as shown above? Anything else I would be better off considering? SmithBlue ( talk) 06:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your help - just checking that claiming consensus over a specific issue and suggesting a fellow editor search through archives to find that non-existent consensus is acceptable to you and within the bounds of WP:POLICY? SmithBlue ( talk) 06:58, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi Stifle, I put the following issue on ANI but got no apparent admin response. "Editors claim that repeatedly misrepresenting a source is OK" seems to be so unthinkable that admins to date misunderstand the simplicity of this case. (At least to my eyes)
If you don't find interest in looking at this please suggest where I should go.
This is not a content dispute. Nor is it a dispute over reliability of source. My concern instead is that the behavior that Prester John and Skyring/Pete promoted durring this dispute make working collaboratively a futile exercise: Accurate representations of sources is presented as unnecessary and, in addition, correcting, discussing and then finally lodging an ANI is presented as "disruptive".
(re-edited from ANI version)
I am also open to feedback over what I could have done better/differently. Thanks for your time. SmithBlue ( talk) 07:38, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for your clear advice on the next step. My understanding was that the content of a source had to be accurately represented in an article. So when a source says "the US government accuses and alleges" we can not replace that with "he admitted to" or "he did this ..." while citing that source. However I see that many of my fellow editors think otherwise which puzzles me greatly. If you have a simple insight that would illuminate my darkness I would appreciate it. Thanks again for your concision. SmithBlue ( talk) 01:35, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi Coppertwig - thanks very much for continuing with this conversation. I was beginning to think that I totally misunderstood how WP:VER worked - beside the 2 editors involved in the original issue, the non-action by admins on ANI, maybe ?AGK, Stifle, SeraphimBlade and your good self all seem to have viewed this as a "content dispute". (And maybe it will yet be shown to be one in some way that I don't understand at present.) I am no longer greatly concerned about the original issue - now I am concerned that WP:VER and WP:BLP are not being actively promoted by administrators - or maybe my presentations of the issue have not been clear or maybe that clarity got lost in a snow job conducted by the two other editors involved in the original issue. So I am not sorry that you got things "wrong" the first time - rather I am very gratefull that you shared details of how this issue could be seen as a "content dispute" and allowed discusion to develop. You now seem to be treating WP:VER as highly relevant which is a weight off my mind.
Regarding a question to the talk page at WP:VER - nothing on the talk page forbidding real-life cases - however while I like the idea, I am not clear what question you are suggesting be asked. What exactly would you suggest asking?
On a separate note I see that the editor who repeatedly misrepresented the sources (PresterJohn) is a subject at WP:WQA. I don't see much to be gained by adding my concerns there. What is your view on this? SmithBlue ( talk) 11:43, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
You categorize this issue as a content dispute.[ [10]] Have you read the discusions I have had with PresterJohn and Skyring that I referenced in my original post to you? here on the article talkpage and archived User_talk:Prester_John#David_Hicks allegations I ask "Please tell me why you categorize this issue as a content dispute?" SmithBlue ( talk) 04:42, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Hey. I tried to reply to your request at WP:EAR. If you have follow-up questions, I beg you to keep them short. I hate reading. Just kidding, but seriously think "concise". ~a ( user • talk • contribs) 04:42, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Sorry about adding new discussions to the top of the page (I assume you're talking about the page on pain), I'm new to this. I'll change it right away. Thanks for the tip Zickx009 ( talk) 19:01, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
I replied on my talk page. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 06:06, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I've tried to advocate for their use, but given the photo's uncertain status, I expect it will be removed. If only it had been staged, we would know who took it! =) Thanks for the offer of help. – Scartol • Tok 19:03, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
The WP:MCOTW is pain and nociception. It is on the list because of the note you and WLU left at the project's open tasks. It would be helpful if you could leave a note on the talk page about what you'd like to be addressed in that article. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 21:21, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi SmithBlue,
Just wanted to say that I don't mind disagreements with rational people (such as yourself), although you are hereby warned that I'm always right, I know everything, the universe does actually revolve around me, reality is required to conform to my POV, and so forth. ;-)
I'm also dead tired and going to sign off for the rest of the day. My hope is to spend this week doing something useful with pain and nociception (I feel a bit responsible for it being the MCOTW), so our infant formula discussions may have to wait. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 01:39, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi, thanks for your message - I wonder why a medcab is needed, several editors have put some good arguments justifying the inclusion, and 3rd party editors in response to the RFC also support inclusion mainly because of reliable sources and verifiability. Those who want it to be included are justifying based on wikipedia policies while the other(s) want it removed because "They think" or "They feel" it's "not right". However I will be ready to participate next week, if it's still needed. thestick ( talk) 02:04, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Hi, just stopping by to say thanks for taking the time to give your opinion on the situation. Krawndawg ( talk) 22:58, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Hi SmithBlue,
Thanks for your comments on my talk page. I too agree with what you're saying and I think part of the problem that you were referring to was my lack of experience of a) being aware of the proper dispute resolution mechanisms b) writing an appropriate request and c) promoting a scientific CAM viewpoint which does means certain editors must confront their own bias and perhaps rethink their POV of certain CAM professions and procedures.
I have a rather simple question and perhaps you can help me out. I'm having a debate with an editor regarding the inclusion of various peer-reviewed research papers for a CAM article I edit and the argument is that because mainstream medicine is the dominant model, that its POV should be weighed moreso than a 'minority' point of view of a separate profession primarily because it has less members practicing it.
My question is, why does scientific evidence written by scholars (PhD) in a CAM discipline not get the same weight as scientific evidence written by scholars (PhD) in allopathic/conventional/mainstream medicine? Specifically, I'm being told that in the article Chiropractic, chiropractic forms the minority POV and a study I want included cannot be used because the editor says it does not meet WP:MEDRS. I think this is a completely bogus argument and absolutely need to take this up somewhere but don't know what the best venue is. Now, for clarity, I'm not "against" the editor (there's no incivility, personal attacks, etc going on) but I really have a fundamental problem with a medical doctor telling a chiropractor what can and cannot be used in the chiropractic article, citing that his profession has "dominance". My argument is it's science vs. science, and chiropractic should cite the experts in chiropractic, which are chiropractic researchers (DC, PhD). Thoughts? CorticoSpinal ( talk) 16:45, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
The information was initially removed by an anon with the comment "quotes were taken from the Yugoslav counter-claim". I was not able to verify this. Indeed, the referenced document has as its title "Order of 17 December 1997" and below that it says "The International Court of Justice, [...] Makes the following Order". To me, it seems like a court order. And even if it isn't, removing it is still not appropriate - claims by Yugoslavia are still valid example of claims of Serbophobia. So, even if this is really only a counter-claim by Yugoslavia, the text may read e.g. "The counter-claim by Yugoslavia to the International Court of Justice [5] in 1997 found acts of genocide against Serbs had been incited by...."
If you do know more than me about this, please you rewrite the introducing sentence. Nikola ( talk) 20:19, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
You should be able to click on the paper's title. [11] Works for me, anyway; does it not work for you? Eubulides ( talk) 10:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
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