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Caning in Singapore schools
Please stop re-adding unsourced allegations to articles on schools and organizations, as you did
here. If you're going to add a serious allegation such as that an organization beats students in front of their peers, a
reliable source is needed.
Fran Rogers (
talk)
00:52, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
In fact, that's not a "serious allegation" for a Singapore boys' school, or even an "allegation" at all, merely a neutral statement of fact; it's just perfectly normal, legal and accepted. I can see that you are coming at this from another cultural perspective where assumptions are different. (see
WP:WORLDVIEW).
It is the norm for WP articles about schools not to require every single fact to cite a source unless someone challenges it ("Sources should be cited when adding material that is challenged or likely to be challenged" per
WP:CITE). There are many thousands of examples of that, and if you are going to delete every such item from all schools articles in the world, you have a busy time ahead! In the present example, nobody in Singapore familiar with the subject would challenge it, because it's true. I know that that particular page has been frequented by students of the school in question and they would have certainly have changed anything that wasn't true. Anyway, someone else has now removed the paragraph in question (and much else besides), and the school doesn't have its handbook on line and I can't find a
reliable source for the moment, only anecdotal sources like blogs, so we shall have to leave it there. --
Alarics (
talk)
09:17, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
The spirit and letter of the
verifiability and
no original research policies is that all content in an article must ultimately be based upon a reliable source. Material "likely to be challenged" is further expected to have an inline quotation so that readers can easily verify it for themselves, but ultimately everything in an article should be based upon one of that article's sources. As
WP:NOR states, "Wikipedia is not the place to publish your own opinions, experiences, arguments, or conclusions." (And if corporal punishment in front of one's peers - as opposed to in private - is the norm in Singapore, why is the public nature being pointed out in the sentence, when I'd think it would be assumed?)
Fran Rogers (
talk)
00:14, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Because not all Singapore schools cane in public. Some do it only in private. Most do both. It's not that public caning is "the norm" -- it tends in most schools to be the exception, i.e. typically only a few times a year, for particularly serious cases -- simply that there is nothing wrong or especially odd about it, so it cannot be called an "allegation". --
Alarics (
talk)
07:35, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Hi, I would just like to point out the fact that as a citizen and student in the abovementioned country, I have not heard of a single verifiable case of caning in a school. While I am sure at least one instance of it has occurred somewhere and some point in time, I personally have not come across an occurrence of such. I belive citing sources would be an excellent idea. Thanks.
AngChenrui (
talk)
14:56, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Actually it occurs every day! If you don't have any connection with schools or students there is no particular reason why you personally would have heard of a "verifiable case". Of course, it is not usually reported in the newspapers because it is routine. However, I will find you one or two cases that have been reported.
Alarics (
talk)
15:06, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
I'm still schooling, so it makes it rather mystifying. Perhaps the school of mine has remonstrated the use of the cane. But yep, it would be great to see the cases - you'll include in the various school articles as references I believe? Oh and also, are you a Singaporean? Thanks.
AngChenrui (
talk)
15:19, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Which school are you attending? There are a few which do not use the cane. The majority of secondary schools do, in widely varying amounts (except for girls-only schools, obviously). Anyway, I have added news citations for several cases in a new paragraph at the end of
Caning in Singapore#School caning. Often the news report doesn't name the school, so these references in many cases cannot be added to the WP article for the relevant school. What one can put into the individual school article is reference to their handbooks where these are on line, and this has been done in a number of instances. Naturally, these don't refer to individual specific cases, only to the fact that caning is one of the discipline options. No, I'm not a Singaporean but I know Singapore quite well.
Alarics (
talk)
15:50, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
An editor has nominated one or more articles which you have created or worked on, for
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Michael P. Fay. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also
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Your opinions on whether the article meets inclusion criteria and what should be done with the article are welcome; please participate in the discussion(s) by adding your comments to
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Erwin85Bot (
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01:09, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
The North London Line fully reopens are completion of upgrade work
May
London Underground and the Royal Society for the protection of Birds (RSPB) team up to launch wildlife competition to encourage people to use the Underground for nature spotting.
Barclays to sponsor London Cycle Hire scheme
LED traffic light installations across London to begin this August
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Tfl wins a prestigious award from the Royal Institute of Brital Architects for the East London Transit
The first of five hydrogen buses in London is currently unmdergoing testing in Bedfordshire
Weekend service introduced on the East London Line
Blackwall tunnel southbound to close for five weekends in the year for vital upgrade work
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Tube Lines becomes a subsidary of Transport for London after the aquisition of its shares
April
Marshalled taxi ranks at O2 on Thursday to Sunday nights when there is an event
More busking licenses available for tube stations
East London Line reopens with new stations at Dalston Junction, Hoxton, Haggerston and Shoreditch High Street
Tour of Britain cycle race to return in September
Talks on 14 and 15 May to discuss improvements to Blackwall Tunnel to be held at the O2
London Underground has been awarded the Carbon Trust Standard in recognition towards its work to wards carbon efficiency
Oxford Circus to become exit and interchange only weekday mornings to give time to replace some of its escalators
Junction improvement means changes to bus services in Herne Hill
EDF Energy awarded power upgrade for sub-surface lines
Tube Lines and shareholders, Ferrovial and Bechtel, must demonstrate plans are robust and prove Tube Lines is creditworthy, as challenged by the Mayor and TfL
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I owe you an apology, Alarics - somehow, I did not see your version, which I agree is well-balanced, neutral and in general very good. Rather, I saw cenwin88lee's version, where amnesty international is characterised as "berating" Singapore, among other points of contention. I think there must have been a delay between the submission of my edit and its actually being committed to the database (?). --
?_? node.ue ?_? (
talk)
07:54, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
Hello. Your account has been granted the "reviewer" userright, allowing you to
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I'm very impressed! That would be a fantastic source for squillions of missing references in hundreds of railway articles on WP. An awful lot of work, though.
By the way, I don't think Railway Magazine is a "journal" in the WP sense. I'd use "cite news". I think "cite journal" is for scholarly academic papers.
Alarics (
talk)
19:48, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
It's a magazine, and {{
cite magazine}} redirects to {{
cite journal}}. Further, {{
cite journal}} has a number of features which {{
cite news}} lacks: these include parameters for the editor's name (many magazine articles have no author, but the editor is normally given); month and year (few magazines have a full cover date, and I have noticed problems when an incomplete date is put into the |date= parameter of a citation template); volume and issue number. --
Redrose64 (
talk)
21:28, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
Well, in that case I would at least leave the "publisher" field blank (we don't need to keep being told that Railway Magazine is published by IPC blah blah), and I also doubt the utility in such a case of volume and issue number. Such magazines have a cover date consisting of the month and year, which always works OK for me in "cite news". Also, where the author name is given -- or, really, even when it isn't -- I don't think the name of the magazine's editor is of value, any more than we would think it relevant to name the editor of The Guardian when citing an item in that paper.
Alarics (
talk)
21:46, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
Putting a month and year into |date= will give a satisfactory visual appearance, but it's what goes on behind the scenes that's the problem. I have encountered problems when linking Harvard-style short note references; |date=March 2009 will sometimes give a valid link, but sometimes won't, whereas |month=March|year=2009 always generates a working link.
The other thing is in the
COinS metadata which these templates export (they do it in {{
citation/core}}, and see also
http://ocoins.info ), which allows automated tools to parse the citation information. Go to a Wikipedia rticle which contains a {{
cite book}}, {{
cite journal}} etc. View the page source and look for something beginning "Z3988": this is the COinS metadata. Since each item in the metadata has a designated purpose, it's best to use the citation template parameters purely for their intended purposes. It's also better to pass too much than too little, so that the exact magazine and article may be identified - some libraries have their back issues bound into annual volumes; if they index by volume and issue, including such information is beneficial. --
Redrose64 (
talk)
23:02, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
We shall have to agree to differ about this. I shall go on using "cite news" for factual refs in popular monthly magazines, which are not at all on a par with learned journals and where month and year seems entirely sufficient to identify the issue concerned. "Cite journal" produces a lot of pointless clutter, unlikely to be appreciated or even understood by the lay reader.
Alarics (
talk)
23:12, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
Also, isn't it rather putting the cart before the horse to choose which template to use on the basis of what happens behind the scenes with the
COinS metadata? If the COinS doesn't do what it is supposed to do, maybe somebody should fix it. It ought not to affect what the reader sees.
Alarics (
talk)
08:39, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
It's not necessarily the incorrect choice of template that creates bad COinS metadata (the COinS author comes from the template author, whichever template is used), but putting inappropriate data into template fields not intended for it; for example, an editor shouldn't be passed via the author. See
User:Citation bot/bugs for some of the problems that occur when other websites put data into improper metadata fields.
Why would using "cite news" for a popular magazine article cause people to "put inappropriate data into template fields not intended for it"? I should have thought there was a considerably greater danger of that by using "cite journal", which has a lot more fields. Sorry if I am missing something here.
Alarics (
talk)
15:44, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
The source should be attributed. Many magazine articles have no credited author, but the editor information is usually available. Therefore, in the absence of an author, the editor should be credited; but {{
cite news}} has no provision for editor. Most other cite xxx templates provide at least |editor1-last= and |editor1-first=, but if these are tried with {{
cite news}}, they are ignored and nothing is displayed. The temptation therefore is to use something like either |author=Doe, John (ed), or |first=John|last=Doe (ed), and this ends up in the author fields of the metadata:
rft.aulast=Doe+%28ed%29&
rft.aufirst=John&
rft.au=Doe+%28ed%29%2C%26%2332%3BJohn&
which is incorrect in two ways: it's the editor, not the author; and the "(ed)" is in there: the "%28" is the "(", and the "%29" is the ")". --
Redrose64 (
talk)
16:20, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
Many newspaper articles have no credited author, either, but you wouldn't give the name of the editor in that case, would you? You would just say the information was in, say, The Guardian on such and such a date, with such and such a headline. Exactly the same with The Railway Magazine. How on earth does it help the reader to know the name of the editor of the magazine? You are attributing the source by naming the magazine. I'm sure the "editor" parameter was intended for the editors of learned journals or sets of scholarly papers, where the editor is an academic with a reputation in the academic discipline concerned. This illustrates again my point that the meaningful distinction is not between a "newspaper" and a "magazine", but between a "news source" (the precise format of the publication involved being completely irrelevant) and a (learned or academic) "journal" which doesn't contain news but does contain articles about scientific experiments, research projects, etc.
Alarics (
talk)
16:41, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
Following on from the above: I have since been deliberately using {{
cite magazine}} for
The Railway Magazine citations (when I can remember, that is - say 90% of the time). Unfortunately, it seems that a bot does not like that: see here for a bot amendment to a ref that I had definitely added. --
Redrose64 (
talk)
20:38, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
If "cite magazine" is deprecated (as that bot suggests) then perhaps all the more reason to use "cite news" for consistency with other news sources. On the other hand, it's hardly of crucial importance one way or the other, in the context of eternity. Maybe all that matters is to try to be consistent within a given article. Most people don't seem to care about accurate references anyway, unfortunately, so we are probably pissing into the wind here.
Alarics (
talk)
21:58, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
Please fix your browser character encoding
Alarics, in
this edit, you destroyed the non-Latin characters in the Singapore infobox, turning them into rows of question marks. I fixed it. Please ensure that your browser's character encoding is set to UTF-8 or something that includes those characters. ~
Amatulic (
talk)
18:33, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Sorry! Actually, my browser is set to UTF-8. This happened because, for a particular reason in this instance, I copied the whole section into Wordpad and then pasted it back in. I'll remember not to do that again. Thanks for pointing it out.
Alarics (
talk)
18:50, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Re this edit - see the three edits immediately prior to yours, also thread started on the talk page of the relevant user, and his reply on mine. Once you've checked those, here's a q: Do you think that the magazine name should be linked in the citation, or not? --
Redrose64 (
talk)
13:04, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
Many editors do that religiously; I generally don't bother if it is a very well-known publication (how many readers need to be directed to the WP article about The New York Times in order to decide whether they want to take seriously a reference to that organ? And in railway articles, I'd say the same probably applies to The Railway Magazine), but I usually wouldn't go so far as to delink it if somebody else has linked it. As for the other user in this instance, I don't know what he is talking about in his message on your page, and I certainly share your bemusement at his edit. Putting the magazine itself into "See also" makes no sense at all.
Alarics (
talk)
14:53, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
New safety measures announced for safety with cyclists around lorries
New cable car system announced in the Thames Gateway area
Southfields stations becomes step-free
Fewer delays in cars being held up by traffic lights
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Bus crime lowest in six years
Early closure of Northern Line cancelled
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Deaths and serious injuries on roads half that of a decade ago in London
Improvements such as maps, signs and timetables as well as flags showing "River Buses" for commuter boats and "River Tours" for tourists to be introduced
Motorcycles to trial using bus lanes
First docking station for cycling scheme installed on the Capital's streets
Information from TfL to be used for commercial gain freely
TfL is not to occupy the Shard
Bank, Charing Cross, Earl's Court, Green Park, Holborn, Hyde Park Corner, Knightsbridge, Liverpool Street, Moorgate and Victoria are to reduce energy usage for the 10:10 campaign
£700 million set for Victoria Underground to be redeveloped as contract is awarded
A new police task force has been set up to deal with stolen or damaged bicycles
New Chief Executive Officer for Tube Lines
A new set of poems are on display on London Underground trains
The southern roundabout at Elephant& Castle will be removed by October and converted into a signalised junction
The North London Line fully reopens are completion of upgrade work
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I have also had to give less detail on some reports as the Article Alert Bot is currently down.
New guidelines have been proposed for railway accidents. Please see
WP:RAILCRASH.
Major discussions arose over the notability of many London bus routes, which resulted in some routes being kept and some being deleted. Please leave your comments at
WT:LT#London bus route articles and
WT:BUS. This has essentially ground to a halt.
Another discussion as well as straw poll has been on whther the frequency of trains per hour should be added. It appeared there was no consensus.
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Did you know...
that at 44
tons, the locomotives of the
Central London Railway's first underground trains were so heavy that they shook buildings as they passed 60 feet below and were scrapped after three years?
...that bus company
London Country North East lost over £5 million in less than two years of existence before it was split up in 1989?
...that
Belsize Park station is one of the only eight stations in London to have a deep level bomb shelter beneath it?
…that
Mile End tube station is the only station on the London Underground network from which it is possible to reach any other station with only a single change of train?
... that at 44
tons, the locomotives of the
Central London Railway`s first underground trains were so heavy that they shook buildings as they passed 60 feet below and were scrapped after three years?
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A £300 million contract is let for the upgrade of Bond Street station
The first of 191 air-conditioned S Stock trains enters passenger service
July
Transport for London launches Barclays Cycle Hire bicycle sharing scheme
New safety measures announced for safety with cyclists around lorries
New cable car system announced in the Thames Gateway area
Southfields stations becomes step-free
Fewer delays in cars being held up by traffic lights
June
Bus crime lowest in six years
Early closure of Northern Line cancelled
Exhibition at Aldwych until July 9th
More air-conditioned Underground and Overground trains on their way
New electric vehicles with special livery to distinguish them join the taxis
Hammersmith & City and Circle to close between 24th July and 15th August for upgrade work as well as works to do with Paddington station and Crossrail
Rotherhithe tunnel to be southbound during weekend closures
New Digital Countdowns to be trialled telling people how long they have to cross the road
Deaths and serious injuries on roads half that of a decade ago in London
Improvements such as maps, signs and timetables as well as flags showing "River Buses" for commuter boats and "River Tours" for tourists to be introduced
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That would mean I have to take the time to go through the whole thing. I should have thought the onus was on you to make the selection, since you are the one doing the archiving. If you want to archive comments on a talk page, you ought to archive only those parts that are out of date.
Alarics (
talk)
16:39, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
And another thing, your reference to my not responding when called upon seems a bit unreasonable after only allowing an hour and a half. I am not on here 24 hours a day.
Alarics (
talk)
16:47, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
Also, I see that that particular talk page is automatically archived by a bot every 30 days, so there was no need for you to archive it manually.
Alarics (
talk)
19:32, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
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17:18, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
Citation bot
Re this edit - please check the source that is being used for the ISBNs, because neither of them is correct. Both books have been given
ISBN071101468X which is actually that of "Great Central, Volume One: The Progenitors, 1813-1863". However, these two books are, respectively, "Great Central, Volume Two: Dominion of Watkin, 1864-1899" (
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Redrose64 (
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17:03, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
Hmm. So much for Citation Bot. It did cross my mind that it seemed too good to be true. Thanks for letting me know.
Alarics (
talk)
17:57, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
onto or on to
I think you are being somewhat pedantic on the use of onto. Under "onto" The shorter OED says
"despite its wide use and similarity to into, the form onto is not fully accepted. It does, however, serve to distinguish sense between e.g. we drove on to the beach (i.e. in that direction) and we drove onto the beach (i.e. in contact with it)"
If you google "onto or on to" you will find a number of dicussions on this point all of which say that "onto" would be correct in this situation (i.e. in contact with). The fact is that language changes over time, whether we like it or not, and the use of onto is now widely accepted.
Richerman (
talk)
23:37, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
What are your problems with the information reguarding the Child Abuse article? The history that was orignially there had nothing to do with the history itself of child abuse, the added information was actually information about abuse and how it fit into history. The shaken baby part should have been removed and added to another part. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Kcnm11 (
talk •
contribs)
14:11, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
There are many problems with this article and it needs a thorough cleanup, but meanwhile I reverted some text you added that seemed tendentious, and was cited to one of Lloyd DeMause's controversial "psychohistory" articles, not a
WP:RS. Also please see
WP:NPOV and
WP:CITE and
WP:Subheadings. --
Alarics (
talk)
14:45, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
London Waterloo
I see you have constantly deleted my references to Poole, Dorchester and weymouth, without any courtesy of using the Talk Pages.
Please be aware that all the above are important destinations. Poole is part of the Christchurch/Bournemouth/Poole continuous area.
Dorchester is the County Seat for Dorset and has significant tourist traffic (Hardy etc), as well as business traffic. Weymouth is a major tourist area and will be the home for sailing etc; for the 2012 Olympics, so I therefore doubt if it is not "important".
I think it is best to show these destinations for these reasons and hope you may eventually agree?
When I first added that sentence to the page, I was going by the population of the cities, as with the Kings Cross article and probably others. Of course it is arbitrary where you draw the line, but Portsmouth, Southampton and Bournemouth all have over 150,000 population. Poole is not that far short and could be included, but Dorchester is a mere 16,000 so it can hardly be an "important destination". At that level, you are going to need a much longer list, and we are talking about only a brief summary in the introduction. Further detail about destinations served should be added to the article further down the page under "Services".
Alarics (
talk)
13:25, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
I see your point, but to quote Dorchester as only 16000 population in this context is incorrect. Dorchester South Station attracts passengers from Bridport, Beaminster, Lyme Regis, Cerne Abbas etc, etc. Also I note that you have not mentioned Weymouth, which is the terminus of the SW Main Line. Weymouth, Portland and the surrounding villages make-up a considerable population. The Fact that Weymouth & Portland are hosting the Olympic Sailing events in 2012 is important. The facts there, in my humble opinion, should give Weymouth a mention - even if we ditch Dorchester as a compromise between our two views?
Regards,
David J Johnson (
talk)
19:44, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
I redid my edit without noticing, the saw in the history your previous restoration of "however". I understand your rationale but do not agree with it. Can you please go to talk if you feel it is important to retain this? Thanks. --
John (
talk)
05:57, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
I'd prefer it with "however" in this particular case (though I agree with you that the word is overused in general), but it's not worth arguing about! --
Alarics (
talk)
07:52, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
There are currently 2,674 project pages; all have been assessed for quality and importance. If you see a new article on a project topic which is not rated, please add the banner to the talk page and assess it.
Portal
Please
vote on potential selected articles, images and biographies for the Portal
Discussions within the project included promotion of the portal, changing colours and some of the articles have been selected for Wikipedia 0.8 release.
In other project related discussions included new railway maps, dates for Hackney Central station, a lorry crash at Oxshott station, categories for individual branch lines, various RDT discussions, Romford to Upminster Branch Line, Poplar DLR depot and a request for taking photos of the Compass Centre
Many, many apologies for skipping another month but i had to leave it due to unexpected personal reasons (not Wikipedia related). Anyway, here is the December edition.
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Xyl 54 (
talk)
01:20, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
High speed 2 refs
Hello. Can I just mention that I didn't correct three unformed references eg the ones like this <ref>url</url> because I think they needed checking - specifically needed linking to the correct subpage, section, page etc. Haven't had chance yet.
If you know of a suitable tag (something like "check reference") could you add that to them so it's clear they need checking and improving. Thanks.
83.100.225.242 (
talk)
18:16, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
I quick note - I've learnt from experience that "at" and "pages" fields in
Template:cite web don't work together, hence this edit
[1]
Thank you for all your work on the references too.
more , more ...
I'm not sure I entirely agree with your removal of the section on capacity estimations. I've brought it up on the talk page with a little more info. I've readded some info, in particular the report, and an additional document that references HS2 in particular but left out the stuff comparing to other schemes specifically.
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