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The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: no consensus. There does not appear to be consensus for a move at this point, and it appears that several things need to be worked out before this can be moved. The proposed target,
Zhusuan, redirects to
Suanpan, which states at the top, "not to be confused with Zhushan or Chinese Zhusuan." The nomination statement points to
WP:CONCISE, but it appears that moving this would only make things more confusing. (
non-admin closure)
Bradv02:45, 1 January 2017 (UTC)reply
Oppose As per
article title policy, "Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject." All the UNESCO documents cited in the article, including the Nomination File for Inscription on the Representative List of the Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity prepared by the authorities in China, refer to the article's subject as "Chinese Zhusuan" and state that it is the official name of the element. So it is appropriate that the present title be retained.
Krishnachandranvn (
talk)
00:10, 1 December 2016 (UTC)reply
Comment and tentative support I'm wondering here if Zhusuan and Suanpan are actually two different names for the same thing? This source suggests so:
[1] If so, this should be a merger rather than a move. I'm inclined to support the move per
WP:CONCISE as plenty of sources don't say "Chinese" and it's probably used by UNESCO as a clarifying adjective rather than part of the proper name for this. —
Amakuru (
talk)
11:53, 8 December 2016 (UTC)reply
Oppose first work out what to with redirect in place at
Zhusuan that is redirecting to
Suanpan. As for keeping China, seems to be how English sources describe it. Not surprisingly Zhongguo zhusuan is also the term in Chinese.
In ictu oculi (
talk)
09:51, 11 December 2016 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
There was a previous move discussion back in 2016 which ended with no consensus to move. It's my impression that some things may have changed since then, so a new look is worthwhile.
EdJohnston (
talk)
01:51, 21 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Essentially, the only previous argument is that UNESCO has a particular designator for the term, which totally ignores historical Chinese use of the term, and frankly also common sense outside of the concept of a database of intangible heritage. If this UNESCO label were the only English name (it's not[1][2]) , I would consider this to be a clear exception to
WP:COMMONNAME, just because of how unnecessary and unnatural the phraseology is. Either zhusuan or Chinese calculation (etc.), this phraseology does not exist with other cultural activities.
References
^"Abacus Joins the World Cultural Heritage List". China Pictorial. 787: 5. 2014.
ISSN0009-4420.
Support - "Chinese" cannot be justified for disambiguation purposes. I think in other articles linking to this article, we would often write "Chinese Zhusuan" (or "Chinese abacus", or whatever), but that in no way justifies "Chinese" in the article title. -- Similarly, the article
Soroban is not called "Japanese Soroban"!
Nø (
talk)
10:45, 21 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Support, seems like common sense. Use the natural, concise term. A quick search on Google Books and Google Scholar shows plenty of sources that just say "zhusuan" instead of the phrase "Chinese zhusuan". —
Mx. Granger (
talk·contribs)
15:11, 21 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Support. But as per below (and above), I think we should merge this into
Suanpan. As such, the only reason to move is so that the history is kept at a slightly better location. —
Amakuru (
talk)
16:16, 21 February 2024 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I think having two separate articles,
Zhusuan (or, for the time being,
Chinese Zhusuan) for Chinese abacus arithmetics, and
Suanpan for the device, is needless; I think they should be merged into one article. Not sure what the title should be, though.
Nø (
talk)
10:49, 21 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Support. I was thinking this also, but I didn't want to suggest it before the move, I guess because I'd at least have that than neither.
Remsense诉11:37, 21 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Support. As I noted in 2016, they appear to be heavily related concepts, and the article here isn't long enough to make me think it needs to be separate. This makes the above RM irrelevant. Cheers —
Amakuru (
talk)
16:15, 21 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment@
Remsense:@
Amakuru: My post did not specify whether the merge should be one way the other. I have known the word Suanpan for ages (I have one hanging on the wall in my IT office, for emergencies ;-) ), where as Zhusuan is new to me - so I'd go with Suanpan. That's not much of an argument, but here's a slightly better one: There are 30+ times as many google hits on Suanpan. Do you agree that merging Zhusuan into Suanpan (and redirecting, of course) would be the obvious choice?
Nø (
talk)
08:48, 22 February 2024 (UTC)reply
For future editors: If you add a Support (or Oppose), please also state what name you think the one article should have.
Nø (
talk)
08:48, 22 February 2024 (UTC)reply
This seems like a sensible merger proposal. I think it is more natural to have the subject of the article be the device, with a section on the skill, rather than vice-versa. --
JBL (
talk)
20:14, 28 February 2024 (UTC)reply