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The issue I've come across though in improving the page is finding good sources to cite, I'd imagine many others have had similar issues. I've been studying Stoic philosophy for a while, and I've had a hell of a time finding a lot of writings. I've definitely read more of Stoics, than direct translation or copy of what they said/wrote. I would think for someone said to be celebrated and prolific like Zeno of Citium, that more would have survived. Maybe it's out there, but just more esoteric than I realized. Xenogis ( talk) 12:52, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
Hi, amended the sentence as per Reliable Sources Noticeboard. Thank you 23x2 φ 10:35, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
The relation between Greeks and Jews is very ancient and it is also mentioned by Acts 4,36, talking about Barnabas, who is described as a "Joses, who was also named Barnabas by the apostles (which is translated Son of [b]Encouragement), a Levite of the country of Cyprus". The Holy Bible is the main source about the history of Israel.
The Semitic origin had been studied by the German philologian Max Pohlenz (1872-1962) who, in his Die Stoa: Geschichte einer geistigen Bewegung, pointed out that "Zeno was certainly, and Chrysippus probably, of Semitic origin" (cf. JSTOR 265746). Therefore, there exist an archivistic and a more recent academic source that document Zeno and Chrisippus' Jewish origin. Also Clitomachus (philosopher) (187/6–110/9 BC) was of Semitic origin (source: treccani.it), in addition to what is suggested by the name of Iambulus. Without citing Diogense Laertius, the studies of Max Pohlenz can be sourced in the article. I apologize for the not idiomatic English, but it seems to be at least understandable. I hope so. Otherwise, I apologize again in respect of the points that remain unclear. Regards, Theologian81sp
Recently the claim has been added that Zeno was Syrian, sourced from a couple of encyclopedia articles that themselves do not source the claim. To the best of my knowledge, this claim is not supported by any ancient source and is indeed contradicted by what's in Zeno's biography provided by Diogenes Laertius, which is where most of our information comes from about Zeno. It seems to me that we should remove the claim from the article, with perhaps a footnote noting the issue. Teishin ( talk) 15:01, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Britannica is almost 250 years old, I don’t think you’re so !! It literally says : the stoic system was created by a Syrian Tariq afflaq ( talk) 18:09, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Zeno could be Syrian and Phoenician at the same time just like papinian a phoenician and a native of Emesa Tariq afflaq ( talk) 19:02, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Tariq afflaq appears to be ideologically motivated. All of their contribs are associated with Syrian nationality/ethnicity claims. Note also that they've included this same error about Zeno on Syrians and they've introduced the exact same error on Porphyry (philosopher). I agree with PopulationGeneticsLevant note on their latest revert that it is likely that administrative action will be required. Teishin ( talk) 19:12, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
I’m not denying the fact that Zeno of citium is Phoenician I’m just adding the term Syrian this is what a lot of reliable sources him Tariq afflaq ( talk) 21:16, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Label him* Tariq afflaq ( talk) 21:18, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
teishin keeps reverting my reliable changes and just delete it without explaining, I think you have a personal problem with Syria Tariq afflaq ( talk) 22:10, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
As promised, administrative action has been requested at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Tariq_afflaq_reported_by_User:Teishin_(Result:_) Teishin ( talk) 22:22, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
You just want to neglect all of the reliable sources I’ve been given you!!! Britannica is 250 years old and one of Google’s most reliable sources and as I’ve said I didn’t say he’s not Phoenician but rather A Syrian and Phoenician Tariq afflaq ( talk) 22:25, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Our own article says that nearly all of our biographical details about Zeno come from Diogenes Laertius. Britannica is obviously in error here. This is, of course, why there is Wikipedia, because there's too much information for companies like Britannica to keep up with and get accurate. Teishin ( talk) 14:12, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
Yes I have this source states that he was a hellenized Syrian philosopher https://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/culture-magazines/stoics , I don’t see a problem with being Syrian and Phoenician at the same time, Phoenicia was incorporated into Syria after the Roman invasion of the levant, in fact papinian the Roman jurist was a Phoenician and a native of Emesa in Syria so i see it very normal, I’m not saying he’s not Phoenician I’m just added the term Syrian Tariq afflaq ( talk) 18:28, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
I’ve* Tariq afflaq ( talk) 18:44, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
I would like to add: in the book « Religion and Identity in Porphyry of Tyre: The Limits of Hellenism in Late Antiquity » Book by Aaron P. Johnson, it states that Pythagoras may be a Syrian from Tyre, and Tyre in phoenicia, so what’s the problem with bending both? Read here please https://books.google.ae/books?id=mM7N_v0xcmQC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA271#v=onepage&q=Pythagoras%20was%20a%20Syrian&f=false Tariq afflaq ( talk) 19:01, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
Sorry for the linguistic mistakes I keep doing, it’s the auto corrector Tariq afflaq ( talk) 19:03, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
Another minor factor that could be added is that phoenicia contained some Cities in modern day Syrian such as Ugarit, Arwad, Tartus, Latakia and Amrit so this could be factored in I think so Tariq afflaq ( talk) 19:27, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
Britannica cannot be in error, it was created in 1768, it’s not a grammatical nor punctuational mistake, there is no resemblance between the words Phoenician and Syrian to make such a big mistake, the claims that a 250 years old encyclopedia made a mistake are totally unsubstantiated. Tariq afflaq ( talk) 19:40, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
Britannica has many errors. Our editors uncover these often /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Errors_in_the_Encyclop%C3%A6dia_Britannica_that_have_been_corrected_in_Wikipedia. Now we have a new one to add to the list. Teishin ( talk) 19:47, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
Britannica is a reliable source per https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:RS
Encyclopedia.com THE WORLD’S #1 ONLINE ENCYCLOPEDIA
Search over 200 individual encyclopedias and reference books from the worlds most trusted publishers. It says: Zeno was a Hellenized Syrian who came from Citium, a city in Cyprus. His successor as head of the school was Cleanthes who came from Assos in the Troad, check the The Cosmopolitan Nature of Stoicism part, https://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/culture-magazines/stoics
Tariq afflaq ( talk) 20:11, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
And again, phoenician weren’t from Latin America, they’re from the levant region, Syria, lebanon, Israel, Palestine and Jordan.
Add that no one knows whether the Phoenicians had a stable set of genetic categories, as they were a boating people whose ships contained mainly males. They picked up women in many different places. Further, it's not known where they came from before they established Tyre, but it would be highly unusual for a group of boating people not to have another home - where they built their boats, as well as acquired some experience in founding cities, before just popping up and building Tyre. Tariq afflaq ( talk) 20:18, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
PhoenicianS weren’t* Tariq afflaq ( talk) 20:19, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
Another book talks about Zeno, state that he’s Syrian. <iframe frameborder="0" scrolling="no" style="border:0px" src=" https://books.google.ae/books?id=kQBbDwAAQBAJ&lpg=PA161&dq=%D8%B2%D9%8A%D9%86%D9%88%D9%86%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B1%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%82%D9%8A%20%D8%B3%D9%88%D8%B1%D9%8A&pg=PA161&output=embed" width=500 height=500></iframe> Tariq afflaq ( talk) 23:18, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
Tariq afflaq has been blocked for 48 hours due to edit warring and failing to gain consensus on a major change. Teishin ( talk) 19:54, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
The Suda confirms Diogenes Laertius' biography that Zeno was a Phoencian, not a Syrian. I've added this to the article. Teishin ( talk) 21:59, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
The note in the lede says:
What are these "primary sources"? Paul August ☎ 22:11, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
Tariq afflaq now permantely blocked. /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Tariq_afflaq_reported_by_User:Teishin_(Result:_Blocked)
Hello, I was looking for the wikipedia article on Zeno's Republic and found it had been merged back into this main article about Zeno with no additional information by a single user over a year ago. They justified it as being all original research and that the work itself no longer exists, but to me there appeared to be at least some sourcing, and I don't believe the loss of a book disqualifies it from being an article, indeed many others have articles here? I'm not so well versed on various WP guidelines so I would appreciate it if someone could review this change? Melias C ( talk) 14:36, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
I have two points to raise here:
1) The article says that Citium was a phoenician colony, but this is contradicted by a cited source already cited in the article:
Pearson, Alfred Chilton (1891). The Fragments of Zeno & Cleanthes with Introduction & Explanatory Notes. C.J. Clay & Sons. p. 2. Zeno, the son of Mnaseas', was born at Citium , a Greek city in the south-east of Cyprus, whose population had been increased by Phoenician immigrants. Whether he was of pure Greek blood or not we cannot tell
The article
Kition says that it's a Greek city and says "The city-kingdom was originally established in the 12th century BC by Greek (Achaean) settlers, after the Trojan war."
Using this source: According to the text on the plaque closest to the excavation pit at the Kathari site (as of 2013).
It also states: "Mycenaeans first settled in the area for the purpose of the exploitation of copper, but the settlement eventually faded two centuries later as a result of constant disarray and anxiety of the time"
using this source: Andreas G. Orphanides, “The Mycenaeans in Cyprus: Economic, Political and Ethnic Implications,” Lines Between: Culture and Empire in the Eastern Mediterranean Conference, 3-6 June 2015, Nicosia, Cyprus
So there's a contradiction in the article and we should find a solution to this
2) Where's the source that says "While most contemporary and modern historians regard Zeno as a Phoenician"?
the two cited sources date to the 1950s
I couldn't find reliable sources saying that, so please provide us with the with the consensus about his ethnicity
Whatsupkarren ( talk) 12:09, 24 June 2024 (UTC)