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(cur) (last) 22:43, Jun 17, 2004 62.80.19.178
The article currently asserts that "Hurrian... was a member of the Denge 2 Caucasian language family." I have never heard of a "Denge 2 Caucasian language family" and a Google search for
turns up nothing. Can someone correct this? -- Jmabel 20:14, Aug 21, 2004 (UTC)
The denge 2 caucasian language family may not turn up any results as it is an experimantal language group, with not much linguistic research, i would be happy to change the term to the alarodian group which is a commoner term, but is seen to be unscientific since much of its research is based on unverifiable sources such as herodudtus' historires ans xenophons anabasis. user:Avenger
Alarodian languages would seem to be commonly used. Given that there seems to be no online citation for "Denge 2 Caucasian", if you want to also mention that term in the article you probably should cite a specific published work that contains the term. Otherwise, it seems to be unverifiable original research, which is a wikipedia no-no. -- Jmabel 00:50, Aug 22, 2004 (UTC)
Has anybody a citeable reference to the Hurrian influences in Zazaki? -- Pjacobi 06:58, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I've reverted "Iraqi Zazaland/Zazaistan/Zazana" to the more common "Iraqi Kurdistan". The latter is a common term, well-known to anyone who knows the region. I'm not saying that the former are totally bogus, but I'm going to need to see a citation from somewhere at least moderately authoritative before I believe it. I googled "Zazaland" and mostly discovered that the term comes up in rather sleazy online bulletin boards in a way having nothing to do with this ethnic group. -- Jmabel 02:05, Aug 25, 2004 (UTC)
I have no idea what to make of the 17:29, Sep 5, 2004 by User:62.80.19.178. I simply do not know the topic well enough to know whether this makes that article more or less accurate. Please, please, please will people start citing some sources? A bunch of you keep contradicting each other and no one is citing anything. I will admit that I tend to be more suspicious of the anonymous contributions, because there is no easy way to look at whether the person's work on topics I know is generally solid, but will someone with a clue on this topic please add some decent citations to this article?
I can't really help you on this, but to say that the editing by User:62.80.19.178 looks rather moderate in comparasion. On the german wikipedia the articles related to Zaza are regulary protected or vandalized. It seems to be some sort of "classification struggle", which is a emotionally hot issues for those involved. For the languages (but, with even less certainty, for the ethnic groups), it's whether to classify:
or
But we already switched to the latter classification, also given by Ethnologue [1].
So the remaining question here, is of naming the region. I'll try the best compromise I see, without being an expert.
Pjacobi 07:45, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Once again, and without comment, someone anonymously removed all references to Kurdish. I have reverted. There may be a legitimate case here, I don't know, but unless someone actually states this on the talk page, it looks more like vandalism to me. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:35, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
I have moved this page from "Zazaki" to "Zazaki language" at the request of "BogdanGiusca" in the #Wikipedia IRC channel. I had to perform this because this destination title was already used by a long-disused stub for the same topic. I have merged that page's history with this page's, since they did not overlap. The last edit to the old page was around 3 June 2004, and the first edit to the current article was around 4 June 2004. - Mark 13:00, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
Zazas are Kurds and zazaki is a dialect of kurdish language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.227.152.101 ( talk • contribs) 13 Oct 2005
[begin cut material]
However, those who view the
Zaza people primarily as Kurds tend to favor:
[end cut material]
I am not a linguist, but after the slow but enduring revert warring over this, I finally left this version out. The linguistic family tree I've seen on the web doesn't support it, and I assume the question of grouping as Kurds is more a cultural and political question and belongs to
Zaza people. --
Pjacobi
11:26, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
The OpenCourseWare link is about Zazaki, but the main pages isn't that obvious. See:
Pjacobi 21:40, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
There should be a Persian column.
Persian | Zazaki (Kirmancki) | English | Kurdish | Turkish |
---|---|---|---|---|
deh | dew | village | gund, dê | köy |
gêran | vay | expensive | buha, bay, way | pahalı |
angoşt | gışt,bêçîk | finger | engust, bêçî | parmak |
nâm-zad | waşte | fiance | xwastig (Senendecî), wîstû | Sözlü |
xûk | xoz | pig | xwîg, xûg | domuz |
gerye | bermayiş | cry | giryîn, pirme kirdin | aglamak |
xoda | heq, hûmay | god | xwedê, xuda, heq (among Yarsan Kurds) | tanrı |
asb, asp / astar (mule) | estor, hesp (Dialect of Aksaray) | horse | hesp, esp / hêstir (mule) | at |
dirouz | vızêr | yesterday | duh, dwê, heyzî | dun |
bâleş | birna,balisna | pillow | balîf, bâliş | yastık |
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.226.211.201 ( talk • contribs) 13 Jan 2006
Please contribute to our Zazaki Wikipedia project at: http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/diq
Please note thet the German Artikel de:Zazaische Sprache recently got a major overhaul and now has a very detailed section on grammatics etc. Whereas I'm a native speaker of German, I'd prefer to give the task of translation someone other, preferably a native speaker of English with a fair notion of Linguistics. All the comparisons with German obviously need to be replaced with comparisons to English, which looks like a hefty piece of work. -- Pjacobi 11:58, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Some linguistics think the ancestors of the contemporary Zazas immigrated between the 10th and 11th centuries to their present-day homeland in eastern Anatolia from southern regions of Caspian Sea Some linguists connect the word Dimli with the Daylamites in the Alborz Mountains near the shores of Caspian Sea in Iran and believe that the Zaza have migrated from Daylamestan towards the west.
How ever some historians think the opposite, that the migration was in the opposite direction: from "their present day homeland" to "Daylamestan". The Dilaman (Dimila/Zaza) homeland is also, acording to the Zoroastrian holy book, Bundahishn in the headwaters of the Tigris, as it is today. This points to that the Dimila/Zaza migrated TO the Caspian sea not the opposite. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.65.146.201 ( talk • contribs) 15 May 2006.
The language comparison columns should be extended to other kurdish dialects aswell. This since the Kurdish part is only in the north kurmanji dialect, wich is the most remote dialect to Dimili/Zaza. There should also be Hewrami (or Kurdi as the hewramis self call their dialect) since this is the closest dialect to Dimili/Zaza. Even South Kurmanji(sorani) is closer to Dimili/Zaza due to the effect Hewrami/Gorani has had on it.
For the Kurdish geneaology of the kurdish language and its dialects see this link, http://www.kurdishacademy.org/maps/map-01.html
Besides the positioning of the columns are quite strange. Dimili/Zaza should be to the very left of the comparison-window, next to Kurdish (preferably to Hewrami and then other dialects) then persian and turkish and english. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.66.17.145 ( talk • contribs) 26 May 2006.
This anonymous uncommented edit made some changes in the Kurdish. I have no knowledge of this myself; I'd appreciate assurance from a knowledgable user with an actual account and some contribution history that it is correct. - Jmabel | Talk 06:11, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
The 1965 Turkish census is totaly false. My hometown alone has 250,000 Zazaki speakers. Zazas mainly live in 8 proviences of Turkey. According to ethnologue, "Between 1.5 and 2.5 million speakers (including all dialects)" [2] exist in Turkey, and this is only for one dialect. If we add the population of Zazaki speakers who live outside Turkey, the population of Zazaki speakers will be well above 3 million people.-- 75.2.136.45 16:01, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I was reading some articles in ZaZa langauge. I almost understood everything, (I speak Persian). I know Zaza is also an Iranian language but I did not know how many Persian words it has. It seems like 70% of the words are Persian. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.108.66.84 ( talk • contribs) 19 November 2006.
The 1965 Turkish census counted 171,057 Zazas (%0.54 of total population), divided into 150,644 native and 20,413 second-language Zazaki speakers. However, the 2000 Turkish census counted 3,235,097 Zazaki speakers (including native and second-language speakers). -- Daraheni 08:21, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Can that be a coincidence?
English - Kurdish - Gileki - Semnani - Zazaish
I make - Ez dikim - Man kunem - A kenni - Ez kenu
I go - Ez diçim - Man şunem - A şenni - Ez şonu
I come - Ez têm - Man anem - A anni - Ez yenu
I say - Ez dibejim - Man gunem - A vanni - Ez vanu
In the south dialects of Zazaish comes for “I” in certain cases also a “A”. -- Meyman 12:06, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I am from Sariz/Kirkisrak village and they speak Kumranji I don't think Zazaki is spoken in Sariz. Ozgur Gerilla 16:40, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Erd is not an arabic word. Erd is related to the english earth and german erde. The arabic is however similar 'erz.
somebody linked a bunch of occurrences of " Zaza"; I removed the links for the obvious reason -- Haruo 03:31, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Since when has Zazaki been a language on its own? I hope Daraheni can answer me? And since when have a Zazaist(!) made conclusions on the Guranis? The same Guranis who calls themselves KURDS? Daraheni you tell me to add my opinion under the controversy, but why don't you do that? You are too subjective, and you know that yourself. If you are so right, why don't you explain the real reason behind the "non-Kurdish" Zaza movement?
Can you explain me these things:
Kirmancki (the name)
Why Gurans call themselves Kurds.
Why until recently Zazas considered themselves Kurds
Why the Gilaki were called "The Kurds of Tabaristan"
Why there are Kurmanji and Kirmancki mixed tribes
Why the Kirmancki people is also noted as "Ekrad" (Kurds) in Ottoman sources
Why Sheref Xan calls the Zazas Kurds
( Xizilbash 19:18, 18 August 2007 (UTC))
The dispute should be solved prior to any further editing sections regarding the classification of Zazaki as an independent Indo-Iranian language and spoken by Zazas and borrowed by Kurds and/or a Kurdish language spoken by Kurds. All additional editing should be provided with references or should be removed due to the heavy disputes regarding this subject matter.
Please discuss your differences here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Qiral ( talk • contribs) 04:41, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
For what it's worth, Dr. Martin Schwartz, a professor of linguistics at UC Berkeley whose specialty is ancient Iranian languages, is one of many linguists who see Zazaki as an independent language that is not mutually comprehensible with Kurmanci. Zazaki is a language in the Northern/Northwestern Iranian language family, and does not have an identical morphology to Kurmanci. Unfortunately (for us), he hasn't published on the subject, but in talking with him it's "common knowledge" in the American linguistics profession. eliotbates ( talk) 07:39, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
This article is obviously POV. I will do my best to explain why:
First of all the main sources for this article are Ethnologue and some very questionable websites that do not look professional and are obviously biased. Anyone can make a website like that and include it as a source. Ethnologue by the way is a bible selling company! I mean come on, do I need to explain this any further?
Then the article disputes Britannica encyclopedia (while first accepting a bible selling company as a sound source for linguistic information) and gives the argument:"The Encyclopedia Britannica notes Zazaki to be a dialect of Kurdish. However, this classification is not supported by linguistics and regarded as political rather than scientific." And as a source for that claim they link to the dubious site zazaki.de where there is no explanation for this claim.
Further when comparing Zazaki to the Kurdish language (among others) it doesn't say witch Kurdish dialect it is comparing it to. Probably to show everyone that "the Kurdish language" and "Zazaki language" are not similar.
There are lots of studies linking Zazaki speakers to other Kurds but they are conveniently not mentioned in this article. The only point of view that gets attention in this article is that of Zaza nationalists who do not want to be associated with Kurds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26lrc8-UtjM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWE17sLOm8k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkDpaWNbRJE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SQhbwcoCgc
yeah thats true for even while they are just a little minority here in europe. Just look at that video clips from zaza in anatolia. No one of them sees themself as a different nation from kurdish. or what also smells like zaza fashism is this part here " Zazaki (or Kirmanjki, Dimli) is a language spoken by Zazas a branch of Iranian people in eastern Turkey. According to Ethnologue, the Zazaki is a part of the northwestern group of the Iranian section of the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-European family.[1] Zazaki shares many features, structures, and vocabulary withPersian, Gorani, Gilaki, Talyshi and other Caspian languages, spoken in northern Iran, along the southern Caspian coast.[citation needed] According to Ethnologue (which cites [Paul 1998][2]), the number of Zazaki speakers is between 1.5 and 2.5 million (including all dialects)."
the relation to even persian is counted but why for gods sake i don´t see any relation to kurmanci while kurmanci is for sure closer to zazaki than persian! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.58.176.216 ( talk) 20:31, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
The rest of my explanation is the same from the "Zaza people" article: It's obvious that the writers of this article have done everything to remove all Kurdish links with Zazaki speaking people. In my family there are as much Zazaki speaking people as there are Kurmanji speaking people and they al consider themselve Kurds. Some of the most famous rebellions in Turkey were done by Zazaki speakers and they claimed to be Kurdish and fought for the Kurdish cause [3]. Seeing Zazaki speakers as a different ethnicity is something of the last 20 years and has no historical evidence because there is NO historical literature on Zazaki speakers. DNA does NOT support a different origin of Zazaki speakers [4]. It's all part of the divide and conquer politics in Turkey and that includes seeing Alevis as a different ethnicity (I am an alevi Kurd myself). -- Bijikurdistan ( talk) 10:14, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
@Guy from Finland well I get this Point. Also Paul Ludwig do not separate the Zazaki Speakers from the Rest of Kurds. So I don´t understand why the articles about Zazaki Speakers usually contains things like ethnicities. While no ethnologist separates Zazas from other Kurds. This article is obviously POV. Before someone talks about Zaza being another ethnicity than Kurds he needs to show me sources and proves. Not just articles about the Language.-- 84.58.148.135 ( talk) 22:28, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
Regarding the science of antrapology and genetic studies, speakers of Zazki(Dımılki), Gorani(Hewrami), Kurmanji, Sorani, Luri, kelhuri, Bahtiyari do not differ racially from each other though they differs much from other iranian groups in many aspects. But in the course of time, Kurds, being members of different religions and using different religious books of different languages had some impect on their origional language. And other social, cultural and political expositions made some modifications on their language regionally. Zazaki or Gorani[Hewrami)seem to be the least modiefied remains of old kurdish language spoken by medians and partians and other ansestors of kurds and also closest to ancient sacred language of avesta and scripts of yaresan or alevi beleifs among all other kurdi languages.
The use of the term "Kurdish" should be defined. As Kurdish in this article means Kurmanji/kurmancî it should be stated. Why Kurmanji is used should also be motivated, as kurmanji is the farthest of the kurdish dialects you could come from Dimilí. Even Soraní is closer to Dimilí, however the closest is Hewramí and Guraní.
"Gorani, Bajelani, and Shabaki languages are spoken around Iran-Iraq border; however, it is believed that they are also immigrated from Northern Iran to their present homelands."
What?! Who ever believed they immigrated from northern Iran? Historical sources point to that the original language of the Kurds was Pehlewaní (which includes both Dimili and Gorani and its Bajelani, Shabaki subgroups). Kurmanji was spread during the middle ages and much later becoming the majority language/dialect of the Kurds. However before this Pehlewaní was the majority language/dialect of the Kurds. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.233.230.60 ( talk) 13:15, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Zazaki is DIALECT of the KURDISH language! The Zazaki dialect has similarities with the Kurdish-gorani dialect that is spoked in Hewraman in southern (iraq) and eastern (iran) Kurdistan and with the Kurdish-kalhori dialect that is spoken is eastern (iran) Kurdistan in the major Kurdistanian cities of Kermanshah (Kirmashan in Kurdish) and the city of Ilam. The enemies of Kurdistan, specially the fascist power of Turkey want to devide the Kurds and make them insecure to their real identity. The Kurdish language consists of many dialects, that have been created along the 4000 year long history of Kurdistan. The different dialect were created because of the geographic region of Kurdistan (entire Kurdistan), which is mountainous. The mountains made the communication between regions of Kurdistan to hard and people didn't reach eachother so easly in Kurdistan, therefore in every single region in Kurdistan, because of the bad communications that were created by the mountains, different dialect of the KURDISH LANGUAGE were created independently, where the ZAZAKI DIALECT (NOT ZAZAKI LANGUAGE!!) was one of them! The enemies of Kurdistan want to broken the will of the KURDISTANIAN PEOPLE by NOT letting them to study their HISTORY, LANGUAGE, CULTURE and so on. Therefore, some unproved thoughts and speculations are created. RENAME THIS SECTION as "ZAZAKI DIALECT OF THE KURDISH LANGUAGE" and READ THE HISTORY OF KURDS AND KURDISTAN to know how WRONG you are writing about trying to make one of the MOST IMPORTANT BASIS of the KURDISH LANGUAGE as a SEPERATE LANGUAGE!! Read the history of the Kurdish language and the history of Kurdistan and then know how RICH the Kurdish language is, that has more than 450 000 words!! (compared to the Swedish language that has only 400 000, although it is one of the most rich language of the world). I want to refer to this page and showing the different dialects of the kurdish language: http://www.kurdishacademy.org/?q=image/tid/6 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.151.43.53 ( talk) 22:57, 4 November 2008 (UTC) -- Alex city ( talk) 23:22, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
According to this text this is not about one language but a group of languages. As a consequence this text is not really useful. Thanks, GerardM ( talk) 13:14, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Proto-Indo-European and Proto-Iranian sound "y" turns to a "c" in Zazaki language as well as in Persian and Kurdish.
Avesta | Zazaki | Hewrami | Kurmanji | English | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
y | ĵ | ĵ | ĵ | - | |
yeng | ceng | ceng | ceng | fight | |
yada | ciya | ciya | cuda/ ciya | separate | |
yaošti- | coš | coš | coš | gush | |
yeūe- | cew | yow | ce | barley | |
yawān | ciwan | cuwan | ciwan | young | |
yāker | ciger | yeher | ciger | liver | |
yāme- | cām | cām | cām | glass | |
yāthu- | cāju | cādū | cāzū | witch |
- Daraheni ( talk) 18:23, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
The comparison tables are incredibly wrong! All the Kurdish entries are intentionally picked! Almost the entire Kurdish entries are from northern Kurmanci dialect. Maybe because Central (Sorani) and Southern (Kelhuri, Leki, Feyli, Gerrusi) Kurdish words would illustrate exclusive ties between Kirmanci Kurdish and Zazaki, so Central and Southern Kurdish words are suddenly pretermitted!? Should I call it “incompetency”, “negligence” or something else?! Here are the incorrect points :
Zazaki Persian Kurdi English
v b / g b / g - va bad ba, wa wind varan baran baran, waran rain 1.vac 2.avaz 1.bêj, wêj 1.sing; 2.song 1.vaz- 2.vez- 1.bez-, , wez-, waz- 1.run; 2.blow velg berg belg, welg- leaf ver ber, ver ber, wer front, fore veyv biyug buk, wewî, wey bride verek berrê berx, werk- sheep vewr berf befr, wefr, berf snow vên, vin bin- bîn-, wîn- see vir bir bîr, wîr memory vist bist bist twenty viya bive bêwe, bî widow viyal bid bî willow vam badam bayam, wayam almond vic- biz- bij-, wij- sieve, screen veyšan gorosne birsî, wirsî hungry vešn gošn beran ram vıl gol gul rose velık gordê gurčık, wulk
kidney verg gorg gurg, wûrg wolf vurayen gerdiden guherin, gorrandin change
Zazaki Kurdi Persian Pashto English
z/s z/s d/h z/s - zerri dill, dil dêl zṛe heart zerd zerd, zer zer zar gold zan- zan- dan- - know zama zava, zama damad zum groom ez ez (min) -*** ze I berz berz, bilind boland lwaṛ borough, high des deh, de deh las ten
Zazaki
Persian
Kurdi
English
ĵ z ž - ĵeni zen žin woman ĵin- zan- žen- playing music, to beat ĵiwiyayıš zisten žıyan live ĵinde zende zîndig, zindî, žîno* alive ĵor zêber žor up ĵêr zir žêr down ĵi ez ži from roĵ ruz rož day 1.vaĵ 2.avaz 1.bêž, wêž 1.say, 2.sing erĵan** erzan erzan, herzan cheap viĵ- biz- biž-, wiž- sieve, screen pewĵ- pez- pêž- cook zi - jî too, also
Zazaki
Persian
Kurdi
Pashto
English
w h/w h/w w/h - new noh now, neh neh nine čewres čehel čil tsalwešt forty newe no nûh, nûwê newai new
Zazaki
Persian
Kurdi
Pashto
English
rz / rr l l ṛ / l - berz boland berz, bilind lwaṛ borough, high erz hel- hêl - sprinkle, throw wurz liz alez aluz- dash off, stand up, fly serpez seporz sıpıl - spleen serre sal sal kal year zerre dêl dil zṛe heart vıl gol gul, goralle gul flower
Zazaki Persian Kurdi Pashto English
w x(u) x(w) x(w)/xp/gh - witiš xabidan xewtin, xeftin xob sleep xo xod xwe xpela self, own gun xun xwin wina blood weš xoš xweš xoẓ̌ sweet wend- xand- xwend- - read wa xahar xweh, xweyşk xor sister werd- xord- xward- xwr- swallow, eat wašt- xast- xwast- ghuṣ̌tel want
Zazaki Persian Pashto Kurdi English
m m m v - name nam num nav, nam* name zamay damad zum zava, zama groom gam gam gam gav, gam step haminan, amnan - - havin summer zimistan zimistan žemai zivistan, zimistan winter dam dam - dav domestic; trap, noose embaz enbaz ham hemaz participant, partner
Zazaki Persian Kurdi English
w f f - hewt heft* heft, hewt seven kewt oftad keft/ket/kewt get in grewt greft girt buy, take kew kef kef foam vewre berf befr, wefr, bewr** snow
So, these corrections are all reckoned without the influential paradox of “c”, “j” and “z” in Zazaki! What for we should accept ”c” instead of “j” and “z”?!!! In the Dimili dialect they almost have no change of ş > s, z > j, or j > c. Though the other dialects present these tendencies in a huge scale : “sima” < “şima”; “racî” < “rajî” < “razî”; “vaz” < “vaj”; “vac” < “vaj”… And indeed such shifts are the base of our all reasoning to divide Iranian languages into separate groups!! Evidently the current Zazaki entries are chosen from the other Zaza dialects and not from the Pure Dimili one.
Also I changed the newfangled (!) Kurdi !! Since when English speakers use "Kurdi" instead of "Kurdish"!?? Kak Language —Preceding undated comment added 10:15, 21 April 2009 (UTC).
I placed Gorani (Hewramani) instead of Persian. Gorani is the closest language to Zazaki, which together constitute Zaza-Gorani group. Gorani is spoken in Hewraman and some other parts of Eastern (Iranian) and Southern (Iraqi) Kurdistan. -- Kak Language Tua Parola —Preceding undated comment added 13:55, 27 April 2009 (UTC).
The language is Avestan, not Avesta. The Avesta are the sacred texts themselves, not the language. Azalea pomp ( talk) 17:56, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
Are the variant forms for seven heft for Gorani and Kurdish actually Persian loans? Also, does the final -h in some forms for nine a sound change of w to h or are they Persian loans? I thought the -h in noh of Persian was actually a contamination from the -h in dah just as the h- in hasht was a contamination from the h- in haft. Azalea pomp ( talk) 18:00, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
I created the original table. Let me explain how it was created:
I'm not claiming Zazaki as Kurdish. I claim it has nothing to do with Kurdish. Zazaki is a pejorative name for Dimilki (Deylami), and Iranica explicitly says it has recently immigrated to Kurdistan from northeastern Iran, (Deylaman). The question is why you compare it with an unrelated language like Kurmanji Kurdish? why you don't put Mazandarani instead? why not Gilaki? Why not Tati? or talishi? or Gorani!! Sakonal ( talk) 19:52, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
Pashto has two retroflex fricatives: the LOC transliterates them as ṣh and ẓh. Since we are using the hacheks they are transliterated as ṣ̌ and ẓ̌. If you don't know Pashto or don't how to transliterate Pashto, please just don't make up a transliteration. Azalea pomp ( talk) 20:35, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
First, if you don't know how to properly write a PIE proto-form please just don't make it up. You must include a distinction between the so called palatals (earlier velars) and velars (earlier uvulars) as well as the syllabic consonants. Also, Persian loans in Kurdish should be marked! Kurdish deh is a Persian loan. If you include loans without marking them, this will add confusion to the table. Honestly only inherited words in the lexicon should be included. Azalea pomp ( talk) 21:09, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
@ Daraheni
You think Wikipedia is something of private property or probably your forefathers have handed it down to you?! If you don’t know Central and Southern Kurdish dialects, Gorani (Hewrami) language or Talyshi, it means no one else should put those entries becuz here’s your dominion?!!
First, I am really sorry for Uni. of California when you are tagging yourself to it. Otherwise how come a student of Iranian languages doesn’t know that Persian “bang” comes from Pahlavi “wang” which is a loan from Parthian “wang” and this has nothing to do with Avestan “vacha-“?! I brotherly advise you to go back to school and review your lessons once again, maybe next time you would figure out that Persian “gusale” (calf) is not comparable with Kurdish “gurçik” (kidney)!!!
You as a Biased Zazaist, who is seeking to blot out every tie between Kurdish and Zazaki, even don’t respect to the current scientific facts and insist that there is no Kurdish language and it’s whether Kurmanci or Sorani meanwhile you confess that you know nothing about Sorani and Southern Kurdish (Kelhuri, Gerrusi, Feyli, etc.)!! And someone could really gibe at you since you appeal to Ethnologue’ classification to prove your unreasonable claim, whereas Zazaki itself is divided into two languages: Dimili (or Dimbuli) and Kirmancki according to the Ethnologue!! What should I consider it?! Are you really a naïve or a malignant person?!
First, Ethnologue is just a database to estimate populations. Its self-willed language trees don’t receive scientific back up at all. And indeed it’s not a reliable source to judge about languages and dialects.
In all historical evidences of Ottoman period as well as those of Safavid, Zand, and Qajar dynasties of Iran, there is nothing called Zaza people in the today regions of eastern Anatolia! Even the Zazaki speaking tribes which triggered two insurrections against Republic of Turkey in 1925 and 1937-38, all speculated themselves as Pure Kurds and fought in the name of Kurdish Nation and attempt to vindicate its substantial rights (as our counterpart history testifies). The first, ever, indication to the term “Zaza” as an Ethnic Group appears in 1989 and a Zaza speaking journalist which claimed in his papers for an unprecedented Zaza identity. And what brings us into skepticism is the subsequent corroboration that this claim relieved from the Turkish officials!! Anyways, there is nothing wrong with it, people are free to denominate themselves whatever they like, but the unbearable part of their, Zazaists, biased and baseless propaganda is their arrogation that all Zaza speakers are Zaza (not Kurdish) and even the famed Zaza revolutionary characters which have declared themselves Kurdish and have been martyred in the name of Kurdish people, were not Kurdish and they were Zazas!! They even rub their noses into affairs of the rest Kurdish people as well as Iranian people (recently they have claimed Daylami and Gilaki people to be originated from the so-called Zazaistan!!!!). Indeed such biased and phony claims illustrate nothing but their malice and spite. Also today there are many famous Zaza speaking Kurds in the Zazaki section of Roj TV, Vate magazine, Zazaki.org, etc. that advocate their true identity.
Anyways, I don’t wanna enlarge it any more, but; first, for sure the article must mention both Kurdish and Zaza people as the speakers of Zazaki. It’s nothing but ultimate discrimination to disregard Kurdish people as the historical and original speakers.
Zazaki entries MUST cover three main Zaza dialects not only selected remote words (whereas no one has scientifically proved whether “dz”/c”, “j”, or “z” is original so far). Since linguistically, Zazaki and Gorani (another Iranian language spoken in the Iraqi and Iranian Kurdistan) constitute Zaza-Gorani group, Gorani must be placed in the tables. Kurdish entries must contain all three dialects not only intentionally picked words from some Northern sub-dialects. Since some scholars claimed Zazaki to be originated from Daylaman region in Gilan, thus Gilaki and Daylami (a dialect of Gilaki language) entries should be added to the tables to observe similarities and differences.
About the inherence of entries, I agree with Azalea.
Also the claim to link Dimili’s to Daylamites is based on the outward similarity between “dimil” and “daylam” and an indication to Armenian language in which “dimil” is called “delmik”. But, I don’t know what for and how come, the scholars who asserted it never ever mentioned the other variants of “Dimil” which are “Dimbil”, “Dimbul”, “Denbul”. Also the Denbulis were a historical Kurdish tribe settled in today Southeastern Turkey. On my side, it’s almost impossible to claim “Denbul” is derived from “Daylam”! But as a current theory I respect it and regarding to it, Gilaki (Daylami) entries should be added.
By the way only scientific explication for the term “Zaza” ascribes it as a Pejorative Name and this must be mentioned in the article, as well as, “Kirdki” along with Dimbuli variant of Dimili as the other local names of the language.
As a native Iranian who can speak Kurdish (Kirmanci, Sorani, Kelhuri), Gorani (Hewrami), and Persian as mother tongue and who’s conversant with Gilaki, Talyshi, Tati (Azeri), and Mazeruni (Mazandarani) as well as Zazaki; I won’t let some prejudiced Zazaists to disrepute Wikipedia with partiality.--Kak_Language 09:29, 28 April 2009 (UTC) Kak Language ( Tua Parola)
The classification of Western Iranian probably doesn't just break up into a Northwest versus Southwest branch. From reading the various Iranica articles, many of the sub-branches of Western Iranian are perhaps transitional between each other. I don't think we should forget that all of these language sub-branches are related to each other. There is also a large amount of borrowing between branches. Perhaps it is better to look at Western Iranian as various branches radiating from a central core. As the Iranian speakers in Iran came from east of Iran, the speakers I doubt broke up initially into Northwest and Southwest.
While Zaza and Gorani probably form a sub-branch, I don't think their relationship to any other Western Iranian branch is exactly settled although most likely close to the Caspian languages. We do know that Zaza-Gorani is not in the Kurdish sub-branch but exactly how they are related is still debated. Kurdish ( which is "Northwest") does transition into Luri (which is "Southwest"). Check this article on Kurdish on Iranica: http://www.iranica.com/newsite/index.isc?Article=http://www.iranica.com/newsite/articles/unicode/v14f1/v14f1013.html
Zaza seems to have its origins as a rather pejorative term, but do the speakers themselves use Zaza or do they find it pejorative today? We can mention that Zaza has its origins as a pejorative term, but if academia is using Zaza, we must use what they are using. Azalea pomp ( talk) 19:17, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
Azalea, Zaza and Gorani are closest relatives of each other. Then they are kin to Baluchi and Kurdish. The only and ever Specific closeness between Zaza-Gorani and Caspean languages, is the present marker in Zazaki which is “-en-“ and seems to share the same root with Gilaki “-n-“ and Mazandarani/Sangsari “-end-“. Though other Caspean languages such as Talyshi “-de-/-be-“ and Semnani “me-“, and Surprisingly Daylami dialect of Gilaki, don’t represent it.
It’s not an exact proof but take a brief look at these examples: Zaza “waz “ Gorani “waz “, Baluchi “gwaz”, Kurdish “xwaz”, but Gilaki “xa”, Mazandarani “xa”, Sangsari-Semnani “ge”, Talyshi “pé” ~ want. Zaza “asin”, Gorani “asin”, Baluchi “asin”, Kurdish “asin”, Gilaki “ahin”, Mazandarani “ahin”, Semnani Sangsari “ahen”, Talyshi “asen” ~ iron. Zaza “ke”, Gorani “ker”, Baluchi “ker”, Kurdish “ke”, Gilaki “kun”, Mazandarani Sangsari “kin”, Semnani “ker”, Talyshi “ker” ~ do. Zaza “her”, Gorani “her”, Baluchi “her”, Kurdish “ker”, Gilaki, Mazandarani, Sangsari, Semnani, Talyshi “xer” ~ donkey, ass. Zaza “waya min / birayé to”, Gorani “wala min / birayu te”, Baluchi “mene gwar / mene birar “, Kurdish “xweha min / birayé te”, but Gilaki “mí xaxûr/ tí berar”, Mazandarani “mé xaxér / té bérar”, Sangsari “mi xaxir / ti birar”, Talysh “çémé xole / éshté bira “ ~ my sister / your brother.
Also Luri is grammatically a Persian dialect which is lexically influenced by Kurdish.
And I didn’t say to change the Pejorative term of Zaza. Unfortunately as a result of Turkish intrusion, outside of Northern Kurdistan (Turkish Kurdistan), scholars designate Zaza as a generic term. Meanwhile Kirmancki, Kirdki and Dimili are true local names with clear etymologies and concepts. “Zaza” term being pejorative is asserted by several scholars, one of them McKenzie. Now, I don’t say to change the article name into Dimili or Kirdki or Kirmancki, but I insist to make mention of pejorative meaning of Zaza name as well as indicating Kirdki and Dimbuli and Gíní as another alternative local names along with Kirmancki, Zone Ma, So-Bé. These all are just stuffs which have been plucked from the article unjustly.
But as my personal confidence, I do believe that Zazaki language is diffused in the Northern Kurdistan after migration of Gorani (Hewrami) speaking Kurds, who brought their creed (Yarsan, Ahle Heq, Alevism) to there. For instance it’s very amazing that when almost all Iranian languages (particularly Northwestern and Southwestern) use ”xweda”, “xuda”, “xoday”, “xodavendegar”, etc. for “God”; in Zazaki language there is no trace of it and they, surprisingly, use “Heq” or “Humay” instead of “God”. Indeed these two terms, heq and humay, are merely used among Kurdish Yarsans to describe God (as Justice and Right ~ Heq) and Ali bin Abi Talib (as Sacred Bird of God ~ Humay). The famous Iranian poem abt Ali, composed by Shariyar, also ascribes Homa to Ali bin Abi Talib > Ali ey homaye rahmat… = Ali thou the Sacred Bird of Mercy.
Anyways God willing I am gathering evidences since last year and I am abt witting an issue on Zazaki language and its correlation with other Iranian languages in Persian, English, and Kurdish to introduce in the Iranian scientific festival. If we could take 70 years linguistic and cultural prohibition in Turkey, if we could witness slaughtering 12,000 civilians by chemical bombs in Iraq, but I can’t bear infringement on our cultural and linguistic legacy any longer.-- Tua ParolaKak_Language 09:37, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
I found this source which was on the Zazaki language page from German wikipedia:
Perhaps we can quote from this as well as other sources to make some tables of examples for Zaza. Azalea pomp ( talk) 05:33, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Corrections include:
I fulfilled the correction. Academic sources on the Kurdish background of Zazaki speakers are added. Also I contemplate that Parthian entries are helpful too. Since Zazaki represents an incredible comformity with Parthian languge, which is obvious in the tables.
Also, Daraheni, you must keep your delirious ideas about Kurdish language (Kurmanci and Sorani dialects) for yourself. You can whisper them all the time en route to school, but for here, give it a rest.--Kak_Language 07:37, 2 May 2009 (UTC) Tua Parola
Gilaki also has "r" as an outcome of thr. For example, the word dare as in sickle. I assume the "s" outcome is due to Persian. The Kurdish "s" outcome is not from Persian. Azalea pomp ( talk) 15:36, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
Some one should stop this vandal, Daraheni, who's deleting parts of the main article, despite of their academic source, only for his own personal reasons.--Kak_Language 03:47, 3 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kak Language ( talk • contribs)
Kurdish nationalist? The zaza people are by themselves the pure Kurdish people, how can Kurds tell themselves that they are nationalists? Well, when the Turkish state made unfortunatly the Kurdish people un-educated, they mix them up and make difference between som edialect of the pure language that is Kurdish and the country Kurdistan, that has an history of more that 7,000 years! Please, read about the Kurdish history and tell me who are the real Kurds, Zaza, Kirmanci, SOrani, Gorani, Kelhuri, they all are Kurds but speak different dialects of Kurdish language, due to the geography of Kurdistan because people didnät manage go to eachother because of the maountains, which made the Kurdish language have different dialect, which marks the richness of the Kurdish language.-- 79.102.155.196 ( talk) 14:11, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
Avstan | Parthian | Zazaki | Gorani | Gilaki | Kurdish | Persian | English | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
v | w | v | v | v / b / g | w / b / g | b / g / v | - | |
vate- | wat | va | va | va | wa, ba | bad | wind | |
var- | war-an | varan | varan | varan | waran, weršt | baran | rain | |
vač | waž | važ, vaj , vaz | vač | gu (dissimilar root) | wêž , bêž | guy (dissimilar root) | say; sing | |
veze- | wez | vaz | vaz | vaz | bez, wez | vez | run, jump; blow | |
verik- | welg | velg | velg | velg | welg , gela | berg | leaf | |
'ves | 'wes | bes | bes | bes | bes | bes | enough | |
ved- | -- | veyv | veyve | géše | wewí , bûk | beyug | bride | |
verek | werek | verek | verek | véré | berx, werk | berré | lamb | |
'ví | 'bí | bé | bé | bí | bé, wé | bí | without (prefix) | |
vefre- | wefr- | vewr | verwe | verf | wefr , befr | berf | snow | |
veín- | wén | vén, vín | vín | vín | wín , bín | bín | see | |
vire- | wir | vír | vír | yad (dissimilar root) | wír, bír | yad (dissimilar root) | memory | |
víseítí | wíst | víst | víst | bíst | bíst | bíst | twenty | |
vítheve | wéwe | víya | véwe | bíve | bêwe | bíve | widow | |
veéítí | wíd | viyal | ví | -- | bí | bíd | willow | |
-- | wadam | vam | vam, vaham | badom | wayam , behív | badam | almond | |
veíč | wéž | víž, víj, víz | véč | elek gudin (dissimilar root) | wiž, biž | bíz | screen, sieve | |
viris | -- | veyšan | ewra | víšta | 'wirsí, birsí | gorosné , gošné | hungry | |
verd- | war | vil | vil | gul | gorale | gol | flower | |
virid-eke | -- | velık | velk | qulvé | gurčik, wulk | qolvé, gordé | kidney | |
vehrike- | werg | verg | verg | vérg | gurg, wurg | gorg | wolf | |
ver- | wíwerad | vurrayen | varray | vagerdin | guhartin , gorran | gérayíden | change, switch, shift |
Avstan | Parthian | Zazaki | Gorani | Gilaki | Kurdish | Persian | English | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
z/s | z/s | z/s | z/s | d (?)/s | z/s | d/s | - | |
ziride- | zírd | zerre | zél | díl (loan) | dil (loan), zirg (midst of birds) | dél | heart | |
zerenye- | zern | zerrn | zerr | tela (loan) | zérr, zerren-ker (gold-smith) | zerr, tela (loan) | gold | |
zan | zan | zan | zan | don (loan) | zan | dan | know | |
zematere- | zamat | zama | zema | doma | zama, zama | damad | groom | |
ezim | ez | ez | ez (classic) | mu (dissimilar root) | ez (min) | men (dissimilar root) | I | |
'ves | 'wes | bes | bes | bes | bes | bes | enough | |
beriz-ente | berz | berz | berz | bulend (loan) | berz, bilind (loan) | bolend ( < beridente) | high, tall | |
dese | des | des | des (classical) | deh (laon) | deh (loan) | deh | ten |
Avstan | Parthian | Zazaki | Gorani | Gilaki | Kurdish | Persian | English | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
č / j | č / ž | ž / j / z | č / ž | j / z | ž / š | z | - | |
jeíní- | žen | cení | žení | zenay | žin | zen | woman, wife | |
jen- | žen | jin | žen | zen | žen | zen | play instrument, beat | |
vač | waž | važ, vaj , vaz | vač | gu (dissimilar root) | wêž , bêž | guy (dissimilar root) | say; sing | |
jív | žíw | jíwyayen | žíwyay | zíndigí (loan) | žíyan | zísten | live | |
heče-upeírí | -- | jor | čor | jor | žor | zéber | up | |
he'če-edhere | -- | jér | čér | jír | žér | zír | down | |
heče- | čé | ji | če | jí | že, ži | ez | from | |
čít | -íž | zí, ží (loan) | -íč | hem (dissimilar) | ží, -íš | níz | too, also | |
reoče | rož | rož, roj, roz | roč | ruj | rož | ruz | day | |
vače- | waž | važ, vaj, vaz | vač | gu (dis.) | wéž, wéš | guy (dis.) | snow | |
erja- | eržan | erzan, eržan, erjan | erzan (loan) | erzan (loan) | erzan (loan) | erzan | inexpensive, cheap | |
nima- | nimaž | nimaž, nimaj, nemaz | nima | nemaz | niméž | nemaz | prayings, prayer |
Avstan | Parthian | Zazaki | Gorani | Gilaki | Kurdish | Persian | English | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
dv | b | b | b | b | d | d | - | |
dvere- | ber | keyber | ber | belte | derí | der | door | |
-- | -- | veng | vang (in enclaves) | veng (weep, cry) | deng | bang (loan) | voice, sound |
Avstan | Parthian | Zazaki | Gorani | Gilaki | Kurdish | Persian | English | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
-- | d/b | b | d/b | d | d | d | - | |
-- | bíd | bín | dí | díké | din, ewtir | díger | other | |
-- | dumb | bočik | dim | dumb | dučik | dom | tail, appendix |
Avstan | Parthian | Zazaki | Gorani | Gilaki | Kurdish | Persian | English | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
thr | hr | hr | yr | s | s | s | - | |
thrí | hiré | hirí | yerí | su | sé | sé | three | |
thríseítí | -- | hirés | yerís | sí | sí | sí | thirty |
Avstan | Parthian | Zazaki | Gorani | Gilaki | Kurdish | Persian | English | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
w | w / f / h | w / h | w | h | w / h | h | - | |
neve | neh | new | no, nû | noh | now, neh | noh | nine | |
čethwer | čefar | čihar | čuwar | čahar | čiwar | čehar | four | |
čethweroseití | -- | čewrés | čil | číl | čil | čéhél | say; sing | |
-- | kefwen | kehan | kewné | kuhné | kewn | kohen | antique, olden | |
neve | neweg | newe | new | nûwé | no, tazé (dis.) | no, tazé | new, fresh |
Avstan | Parthian | Zazaki | Gorani | Gilaki | Kurdish | Persian | English | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
rd / rz | rd / r / rz | rr / l / rz | l / r / rz | l | r / rč / l / rz | l / rz | - | |
berirze | berz | berz | berz | bulend (loan) | berz | bolend ( < birdente) | high, tall | |
heriz- | hírz | erz | herz | él | hél | hél | let, allow | |
spirizen | -- | serpez | sipil | taal (loan) | spil | ésporz (loan?) | spleen | |
seridde | sard | serr | sal | sal | sal | sal | year | |
ziride | zírd | zerre | zéll | díl (loan) | zirg, dil (loan) | dél | heart | |
ve'ride-eke | -- | velik | velk | quvé | gu'rčik, wulk | qolvé, gordé | kidney | |
verd- | war | vil | vil | gul | gorale | gol | flower |
Avstan | Parthian | Zazaki | Gorani | Gilaki | Kurdish | Persian | English | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
xv | wx | w | w | x | xw | x | - | |
xvefne- | wxab | witen | witey | xutin | xewtin | xabíden | sleep | |
xvet | wxed | xo, xwi (loan) | wé | xu | xwe | xod | self | |
xveš | wxeš | weš | weš | xéš | xweš | xoš | sweet, happy | |
xvuní | goxuní | guní | wuní | xun | xwín | xun | blood | |
xven- | wxend | wenden | wendey | xondin | xwendin | xanden | read | |
'xverite- | 'wxard | werden | wardey | xordin | xwerdin | xorden | eat | |
xveh- | wxar | wa | walé | xaxur | xweh | xaher | sister | |
-- | wxašt- | wašten | wastey | xasén | xwastin | xasten | want |
Avstan | Parthian | Zazaki | Gorani | Gilaki | Kurdish | Persian | English | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
m | m | m | m | m | m / v | m | - | |
namen- | nam | name | namé | nom | nav, nam | nam | name | |
zematere- | zamat | zama | zema | doma | zama, zava | damad | groom | |
jeme- | gam | gam | gam | gam | gav, gam | gam | step, stride | |
hemen- | -- | hamnan | hamna | tabéson (dis.) | havín | tabéstan (dis.) | summer | |
zime- | zimistan | zimistan | zimistan | ziméson | zimistan, zivistan | zéméstan | winter | |
heme- | enbaz | hembaz | hamaz | šerík (loan) | hemaz | enbaz | participant | |
heme- | hamal | heval (loan) | hamal | réfíq (loan) | hemal, heval | refíq (loan) | peer, friend |
Avstan | Parthian | Zazaki | Gorani | Gilaki | Kurdish | Persian | English | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
f / p / w | f / w / m | w | f / w | f | w / f | f | - | |
hepte- | heft | hewt | heft, hewt | heft | heft, hewt | heft | seven | |
kepte- | keft | kewten | keftey, kewtey | ketin | keftin, kewtin | oftad (dis.) | fall | |
greube- | gíríft | girewten | girtey | gíftin | girtin | géréften ' | take, grip | |
kefe- | kef | kew | kef | kef | kef | kef | foam | |
vefre- | wefr | vewre | verwe | verf | wefr, bewr (sub-dialectal) | berf | snow | |
xvefne- | wxemn | hewn | werm (dis.) | xu | xewn | xab | dream |
Zazaki | Gorani | Gilaki | Kurdish | Persian | Turkish | Arabic | English | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
loan | loan | loan | loan | loan | origin | origin | - | |
kitav, kitab | kitaw | kítab | kitav, kitéw | kétab | -- | kítab | book | |
Heq | Heq (Yarsan) | -- | Heq (Yarsan) | -- | -- | heq (right) | God | |
werdek | werdek | ordek | werdek | ordek | ördek | -- | duck | |
hikat | hikat | híkayet | hikat | hékayet | -- | híkaye | fiction, tale | |
hewl, hol | -- | -- | hol (southern) | -- | -- | hel? (legalize) | good | |
qise kerden | qise kerdey | -- | qise kirdin | -- | -- | qísse (story) | speak, converse | |
welat | wilat | -- | welat | -- | -- | vílaye (district) | country |
Parthian | Old Daylami | Zazaki | Gorani | Gilaki | Kurdish | Persian | English | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
- | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | |
firíšteg | xenadé, xanadé | risnayox | kíyaste | firistadé | šand | féréstadé | apostle, messenger | |
espar | esvar | espar | siwar | sivar | siwar | sevar | mounted, horseback | |
-- | xole | qin | qin | xolé (~hole) | kin, hol (~hole) | kun | anus, rectum | |
purd | pord | pird | pird | purd | pird | pol | bridge | |
-- | perdeníšín | sindoriž | perdeníšín | perre- | perdeníš | merznéšín | marginal | |
-- | títí | meté, dayé | dédé | títí (folkloric) | títik | khalé, mader | reverential word to call ladies | |
-- | tíf | dirr | dirr, téx | tíf | dirrik | tígh | thorn | |
češm | čem | čim, čem | čem | čum | čav | češm | eye | |
xaneg | sím | key | yane | xoné | mal, xanû | xané | house | |
ber | símber | keyber | yaneber | belte | derwaze | deré xané | port, house-door | |
forûšeg | forûše | helwa | helwa | fûrûšé | helwa | helva | halva | |
-- | kaljar | lec | ceng | ceng; kaljar | ceng, šerr | ceng, deva | battle; farm | |
-- | kol | kift | kol | kûl | kol | kul | shoulder | |
-- | Gíl, Gílik | Dimil, Kirmanc, Kird | Kurd | Gíl, Gilik | Kurd, Kurmanc | Fars | native names | |
-- | déh | dew, dega | dega | déh | gund, dé | déh, rusta | village | |
-- | déhče | dewiž, dewij, dewiz | degayí | déhí | gundí | rustayí | villager | |
hemíšeg | hemíšek | hemíše | hemíše | hemíšek | hemíše | hemíšé | always | |
key | kíya | serok | serok | kíya | serok, key | serkerdé, kéy | commander, king | |
-- | kuš | xebetnayen | enekošey | kuš | košín, tékošín | kušíden | attempt, effort | |
kof | kuh | ko, kûwe | ko, šax | kuh | kéf, kûwe, čiya | kuh | mountain | |
-- | meng; meh | ašmí; meng | mang | mehto, meng; meh | heyve, meng; meh | mehtab; mah | moon; month | |
-- | čak | mérg | mérg | čak | mérg | merghzar | meadow | |
šehr | šar | bajar, šar (~people) | šar | šehr | šar, bajar | šehr | city | |
wažar | bašehr | bazar, bajar, bacar (city) | bazar (loan) | bazar (loan) | bazar (loan), bajar | bazar | bazaar | |
xan | xaní | hení, yení | hane | xaní | kaní, kení | xan | fountain, spring |
The purpose of this page is to give information specific to Zazaki.
The purpose of the tables on the page is to give the development of Proto-Indo-European sounds in the Zazaki language. It has this function of sound development. These sound developments are evident through scholarly studies. The purpose of putting Kurmanci and Persian words is to answer the claims of that Zazaki is Kurdish (or Kurmanci) dialect by Kurmanci Kurdish nationalist of Turkey. There is actually a whole section in the article under the "controversy of classification" heading. Those Persian and Kurmanci columns have that purpose and to answer the "controversy". (Persian and Kurmanci columns can be removed given that the "controversy" section is also removed. Actually there is no controversy about classification.)
However, the purpose of the those tables above written by Kak Language has no specific value to Zazaki. It is just comparison of words through some Iranian languages. Why should Zazaki page has to include all these messy and questionable information. Why not Kurdish, Persian, or others? The place of those tables should be the page for Iranian languages. -- Daraheni ( talk) 21:53, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
I think this is quite sloppy. We don't need 15 examples for 1 or 2 sound changes. No more than five examples (and clearing out any loans) is quite sufficient. Why do we need 15 examples for a sound change? We get the point after 1 or 2 examples. It is much too cumbersome. Please select a few examples which are best suited as an example (no loan words). Azalea pomp ( talk) 08:54, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
I didn't find references to Central Zaza or Central Zazaki. I did find that Ethnologue, that is used as the basis for the /* Zaza languages */ section, lists Kirmanjki as the language of Bingol and other areas where Central Zazaki is alleged. -- Bejnar ( talk) 20:14, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Regarding the science of antrapology and genetic studies, speakers of Zazki(Dımılki), Gorani(Hewrami), Kurmanji, Sorani, Luri, kelhuri, Bahtiyari do not differ racially from each other though they differs much from other iranian groups in many aspects. But in the course of time, Kurds, being members of different religions and using different religious books of different languages had some impect on their origional language. And other social, cultural and political expositions made some modifications on their language regionally. Zazaki or Gorani[Hewrami)seem to be the least modiefied remains of old kurdish language spoken by medians and partians and other ansestors of kurds and also closest to ancient sacred language of avesta and scripts of yaresan or alevi beleifs among all other kurdi languages.
The use of the term "Kurdish" should be defined. As Kurdish in this article means Kurmanji/kurmancî it should be stated. Why Kurmanji is used should also be motivated, as kurmanji is the farthest of the kurdish dialects you could come from Dimilí. Even Soraní is closer to Dimilí, however the closest is Hewramí and Guraní.
This edit would appear to be an effort to kidnap a link. I leave it to someone else to decide whether either or both actually should be linked. - Jmabel | Talk 02:00, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
we kurds were before persians hereon thsi world.we are kurds from kurdistan. pls edit page
zazaki speaker are kurds here source pls edit quicly thsi page. source : http://www.joshuaproject.net/people-clusters.php?rop2=C0114
greets agit —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.224.185.138 ( talk) 08:46, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
here source map :zazaki gorani kurmanci sornai =kurdish
link : http://i2.ytimg.com/bg/1M6O2d1bc35AJkoDRQgXnw/105.jpg?app=bg&v=4cac717d
OTHER SOURCE TOO : http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/a/a4/Linguistik_kart_Kurdistan.jpg
+we are not iranic people!pls change it!
you make us kurds only ridicolis ,we are not iranic people .we are only aryan speaking people aryan is not a iran folk.aryan isno t a race!please change it,otherwise i will report to court because of national insult .
greets.
serhad —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.182.41.176 ( talk) 17:25, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
here!
http://www.kurdishacademy.org/?q=node/212
DIMILI(zazaki)
http://www.kurdishacademy.org/?q=node/47
in zazaki city dersim won kurdish national party BDP .that s a point too! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.224.185.66 ( talk) 11:56, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
here : http://www.zazaki.net/haber/is-ankara-promoting-zaza-nationalism-to-divide-the-kurds-279.htm
Is Ankara Promoting Zaza Nationalism to Divide the Kurds? Wladimir van Wilgenburg
Is Ankara Promoting Zaza Nationalism to Divide the Kurds?
Publication: Terrorism Focus Volume: 6 Issue: 3
January 28, 2009 01:48 PM Age: 290 days
Category: Terrorism Focus, Global Terrorism Analysis, Turkey, Terrorism
By: Wladimir van Wilgenburg
Until recently, speakers of the Zaza language within Turkey have been considered part of the vast Kurdish ethnic group spread over Turkey, Iraq, Iran, and Syria. In the 1980s, the creation of a Latin alphabet suitable for Zaza-language publishing created a renewal in Zaza literature and culture, leading to the development of a type of Zaza nationalism that some Kurds suspect is inspired by Turkey’s intelligence agencies as a means of dividing the Kurds and weakening the Kurdish militants of the Kurdistan Workers Party (Partiya Karkeren Kurdistan - PKK).
Zaza nationalism is still opposed by some Zaza-speakers who consider themselves Kurds. [1] Zaza nationalism is focused on the Zazaki dialect and native Zazaki speakers in Turkey. Some Zaza nationalists also want an independent Zaza homeland called Zazaistan in Turkey, potentially weakening the appeal of the PKK among speakers of the Zazaki dialect.
In terms of faith, the Zaza (whose numbers depend on still-contentious ethnic and linguistic definitions but may be placed between one to three million) are roughly divided between Sunni Muslims and Alevis. Usually Zazaki speakers are called Kurds, and Zazaki is considered as a Kurdish language by Kurdish nationalists and many scientists. Zaza nationalists argue that they form their own people on the basis of a lack of mutual comprehensibility between Zaza and the Kurmanci dialect of Kurdish, spoken by nearly 80% of all ethnic Kurds. Some linguists argue that Zaza is not related to the Kurdish language or its dialects. However, ethnic identities are influenced by subjective factors as much as objective factors like genetics and linguistics. Ethnic identities in general are social constructions and can be influenced by state policies.
Zaza nationalism grew primarily in the European Zaza diaspora where the differences between the Kurmanci and Zazaki dialects became more visible due to the freer environment. In Europe, migrants from Turkey were not forced to learn Turkish, but could choose between Kurmanci and Zazaki as a “mother language.” This resulted in Zaza-nationalism in some cases. [2] Another factor was the opposition of some Kurdish nationalists to Zazaki publications. Currently Zaza “nationalism” is still largely a matter of exile politics and seems to be a marginal phenomenon, but it is also starting to influence the debate on ethnic identity in Turkey.
The recent discussion about “mother language education” in Turkey and the policy of the Justice and Development Party (Adalet ve Kalkınma Partisi - AKP) government to open a Kurdish-language television station could strengthen the divisions between Kurmanci and Zaza speakers (see Terrorism Focus, January 13). The current TRT 6 channel only broadcasts in Kurmanci, but there are also plans to broadcast in the “Kurdish dialects Zaza and Sorani” (Hurriyet, January 2). This was welcomed by several Zaza speakers (Bianet.org, January 7). On internet forums, however, Zaza nationalists have already emphasized that they want a Zaza channel, not a Kurdish Kurmanci channel.
Anthropologist Martin van Bruinessen has described the popular conspiracy theory among Kurds that Zaza nationalism is a machination of the Turkish intelligence services. [3] The claims of Kurdish nationalists may not be completely unfounded. In fact, many Turkish nationalists support the notion that Zazas are not Kurds. They think this could hasten the assimilation of Kurds and weaken support for the PKK.
In 1996 the Turkish Democracy Foundation (TDF - a non-governmental organization devoted to “the creation of a stable democracy in Turkey”) published a small booklet condemning the PKK’s brand of Kurdish nationalism. They focused on the “heterogeneous” nature of Kurds and emphasized that some Zazas do not see themselves as Kurdish. The booklet noted that Kurds would rather be part of a democratic Turkey than become “part of a heterogeneous community entangled in intertribal violence and marked with the hegemony of tribal thinking.” [4]
But Turkish interest in the cultural heterogeneity of Kurds is older. The Turkish nationalist Hasan Resit Tankut proposed in 1961 to create a Turkish corridor between Zaza and Kurmanci speakers to accelerate their integration into Turkish culture. Some other Turkish authors have presented the Zaza speakers as a distinct ethnic group, different from the Kurds. [5]
Some Kurds have suggested a link between the Sunni founder of Zaza-nationalism, Ebubekir Pamukcu (d.1993), and the Turkish intelligence services, accusing Pamukcu of helping split the Kurdish nation. The Zaza-nationalistic movement was welcomed and financially supported by certain circles in Turkey’s intelligence establishment and Pamukcu has since been accused of having ties to Turkish intelligence. [6] A Zaza publisher in Ankara is believed by some Kurds to be controlled by the Turkish intelligence services. In an interview with Kurdmedia, Kurdish nationalist and Zazaki linguist Mehemed Malmisanij said the name of this “Zazaistan” publisher was the “Zaza Culture and Publication House” and was part of the Turkish intelligence services with the task of attacking the Kurdish nationalist movement. “The conclusion that I draw… is that these [Zaza nationalist groups] were groups based in the state, or with a more favorable expression, groups that thought in parallel with the state” (KurdishMedia.com, October 6, 2003).
PKK-leader Abdullah Ocalan also claimed that Turkey’s National Intelligence Organization (Milli Istihbarat Teskilati – MIT) is behind the growing political and cultural activities of the Zazas in Turkey: “The MIT is behind this. They are doing this to stop the development of Kurdish national consciousness.” [7]
There are also signs a separate Zaza identity is getting more attention in the political sphere. Turkey’s Nationalist Movement Party (Milliyetci Hareket Partisi - MHP) has never used the Kurdish language in political statements, but MHP member Abdullah Arzakcı made a surprising speech in Kurdish in 2006 in which he said, “I'm Zaza, I'm Kurd. There is no Kurdish problem.” (Zaman, 15 may 2006). Arzakcı intended to show that it is no longer a problem in Turkey to call oneself Kurdish or Zaza.
In 2007 the polling company Konda took an important step by making an ethnic differentiation between Zazas and Kurds (Milliyet, March 22, 2007). Earlier a Turkish nationalist think-tank reported on “Zaza-Kurds” and there are steadily more Turkish newspapers and online publications that conclude Zazas are not Kurds. An example is the contribution of a Zaza reader to the newspaper Today’s Zaman. She stressed that there are “millions of Kurds, Zazas and Laz who do not see themselves as different from their Turkish brothers and sisters, and their problems are no different from the problems of this country.” The writer emphasized her loyalty to Turkey (Today’s Zaman, August 23, 2008).
Even Turkish premier Recep Tayyip Erdogan made a distinction between the Zazas and Kurds when he visited Hakkari in November 2008 (Zaman, November 2, 2008). The former mayor of Sur in Diyarbakir province, Abdullah Demirbas (a member of the ethnic-Kurdish Democratic Society Party – DTP), recently denied the existence of any influence from Zaza-nationalism on the population of southeast Turkey, but it is clear Turkish politicians are starting to distinguish between the Zazas and Kurds (Kurmanci-speakers), apparently to weaken Kurdish nationalist claims (Kurdmedia.com, January 20).
Most Zaza nationalists are hostile to the PKK, something that can be useful to Ankara in its fight against Kurdish militancy. Zaza nationalists accuse the PKK of “anti-Zaza” activities and blame both the Turkish military and the PKK for the depopulation of Zaza regions. [8] Zaza nationalists fear assimilation from both Kurdish nationalists and the Turkish state.
It is likely that the Zaza identity could become another tool in the political battle between Turkey and the Kurdish nationalists. A freer cultural climate in Turkey with more space for education in native tongues like Zazaki and Kurmanci could also eliminate the concept of a “Turkish enemy” among non-Turkish ethnicities. In this case the nationalism of the Kurds could become a bigger threat to Zaza speakers than Turkish nationalism.
The problem is that Turks fear that this will result in the end of the state due to the presence of many ethnicities in Turkey. The Ottoman Empire was divided into ethnic regions (Greek, Armenian, Kurdish, etc) by the Allied Forces after World War I with the 1920 Treaty of Sevres. This has made the Turks afraid of once more losing territory to ethnic nationalists, a condition some call “Sevres paranoia.”
In the end Zaza-nationalism could play a role in the ongoing Turkish-Kurdish debate, but it is not clear whether the Zaza-identity will become popular among Zaza-speakers who still classify themselves as Turks and Kurds. If the Zaza-identity becomes more popular, this could decrease support among the one to three million Zazas for the PKK and weaken Kurdish nationalism.
Notes:
1. Martin van Bruinessen, "Kurdish Nationalism and Competing Ethnic Loyalties", Original English version of: "Nationalisme kurde et ethnicités intra-kurdes," Peuples Méditerranéens no. 68-69 (1994), pp.11-37. http://www.let.uu.nl/~martin.vanbruinessen/personal/publications/Competing_Ethnic_Loyalties.htm. 2. Martin van Bruinessen, op cit. 3. Ibid. 4. Turkish Democracy Foundation, Fact Book on Turkey Kurds and the PKK terrorism, 1996. URL: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/8572/ii.htm. 5. Martin van Bruinessen, “Constructions of ethnic identity in the late Ottoman Empire and Republican Turkey: The Kurds and Their Others,” March 8, 1997. http://www.let.uu.nl/~martin.vanbruinessen/personal/publications/constructions_of_ethnic_identity.htm. 6. Ibid. 7. Unpublished interview by Paul White with PKK leader Abdullah Ocalan, at the Mahsum Korkmaz Akademisi, Lebanon, July 2, 1992. 8. Zulfü Selcan, Grammatik der Zaza-Sprache, Nord-Dialekt (Dersim-Dialekt), Wissenschaft & Technik Verlag, Berlin, 1998 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.224.183.166 ( talk) 00:15, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
as long as a racist state like germany does not support terrorism to divide kurdish and turkish people i don't think anybody really cares if you are a Zaza,persian ,turkish, german or kurdish.
terrorism is not the answer — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.176.110.112 ( talk) 22:14, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
That non-linguistic, poorly referenced, and purely speculative drivel about Zazaki being an old form preserved because of religious connections has no place in this article. Even mentioning it, without any reliable linguistic source is WP:UNDUE. Until there is a reliable linguistic source, it should be left out. -- Taivo ( talk) 12:58, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
The ethnicity of Zazaki speakers is completely immaterial to a discussion of the Zazaki language (which is the point of this article). Argue ethnic identity elsewhere, this article is for language issues only. Zazaki speakers could be Kurds, Arabs, Turks, Englishmen, Native Americans, or Martians for all that it matters to this article. -- Taivo ( talk) 01:31, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
Hello everybody! The people of Kurdistan have a rich diversity, because of its long history of more than 5,000 years. Zaza Kurdish is one of the important Kurdish dialects, but unfortunately due to the enemies of Kurdistan, they have always wanted to divide the Kurdish people that have different dialects as Zazaki (dimilkî), Hewramî, Kurmancî, Soranî and Kelhorî. We, the people of Kurdistan are more stronger than the conspirational ideas that want to divide the Kurdish people. Because we the Kurds have not studied our history and don't even know who we are and how rich history and language we have, we might think that Zaza Kurds are a different people, but that is as wrong as saying that the earth is not round!!! For God's sake, Zaza dialect of Kurdish language are really close to Hewramî Kurdish dialect that is spoken in the region between Iraqi Kurdistan and Iranian Kurdistan. Zaza dialect is also spoken by Shabak Kurds around the city of Mosul is Iraqi Kurdistan/Iraq. Zaza Kurds are KURDS, GOd created them as Kurds, ask Salahettin Demirtas, Gülten Kisanak and Nilufer Akbal, they are KURDS and nothing else (Kurds are zaza, kurmanci, sorani, hewrami, kelhuri and so on). So PLEASE: READ THE RICH HISTORY OF MORE THAN 5,000 YEARS OF THE KURDISH PEOPLE AND KURDISTAN BEFORE LETTING THE ENEMIES OF KURDISTAN IN TURKEY, IRAN, IRAQ AND SYRIA DECIDE WHO YOU ARE AND WHO YOU AREN'T! KURDISTAN IS KURDISTAN AND CANNOT BE DIVIDED, BECAUSE KURDISTAN HAS A RICH HISTORY AND HAs NATURALLY EXISTED AND HAVE NOT IMMIGRATED FROM MANGOLIA AND BY FORCE OCCUPATED THE REGION! You have to know yourself first before talking to others!!!! READ YOUR HISTORY FROM MANEY SOURCES!!!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.195.247.213 ( talk) 16:00, 29 January 2012 (UTC)