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"The fact that the Septuagint and Nehemiah call Joshua Iēsous or Yeshua indicates that the name was pronounced in this way at their time. The question we address now is whether this form was used at the time of Jesus. Was the Greek spelling Iēsous meant to reflect the actual pronunciation as Yeshua, or was his name really Yehoshua and those who composed the Greek of our New Testament changed it to Iēsous in order to conform to some convention?
Although the form Iēsous was the normal form for
Joshua son of Nun, this would obviously not require Greek writers or translators to use it for someone else named Yehoshua`. (The normal transliteration of Yehoshua would have been Ιωσους or Ιωσουε (compare the Latin Iosue), as in other NT names like Ιωσαφατ for Yehoshaphat.) And yet all New Testament writers or translators (at least nine different persons) use the form Iēsous for the founder of Christianity."
This is indeed original research. The forms Ιωσους or Ιωσουε are unattested in any Greek text nor does any discussion of the name in published works present these speculative forms. All known cases of Greek transliteration of the name Joshua are Iēsous, no other form is known. Also its not the Septuagint that calls "Joshua" by the name "Yeshua" it is the original Hebrew texts of Ezra and Nehemiah that use "Yeshua", you seem to be equating Iēsous with "Yeshua" despite the fact that it is used for "Yehoshuah" as well and there is no indication that Yehoshua was pronounced Yeshua when written out in Hebrew in uncontracted form, you seem to think that the Greek form implies the contracted Hebrew pronunciation Yeshua, but that is fallacy, Greek does not have an "h", the fact that its not present in the Greek form says nothing about the pronunciation of the Hebrew, you can't make up alternative speculative Greek transliterations and use them to conclude that Iēsous implies a pronunciation Yeshua.
Kuratowski's Ghost (
talk)
22:32, 11 July 2008 (UTC)reply
Related to that, the initial paragraph states that Yeshua... "is thought by some scholars and religious groups to be the Hebrew or Aramaic name for Jesus." I think it's well-established and well-sourced for the hypothesis. What surprises me is that the phrase implies that it is a contested issue or minority position. If that is indeed the case, what other possibilities are there, or which groups do not advocate such a form as being the original Aramaic or Hebrew form of Jesus's name? --
Wtrmute (
talk)
21:47, 9 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Yeshua is the name used for Jesus by Maimonides and anonymous redactors of the Josippon, but it is not known if this was the name used for him in the 1st century, as the article explains it could have been the full form Yehoshua or the Greek Iesous. As explained the Church fathers who discuss the matter claim that the Greek form is his original name. [[User:Kuratowski's Ghost|]] (
talk)
14:17, 10 July 2009 (UTC)reply
2019
Can you please cite which Church Fathers said so and where? I agree with you, this "Yeshua" nonsense is one of the great lies ever wrought against our Lord, and the citation of the Septuagint and other Jewish writers as the basis to understand his original name is a misdirection. God said the Kingdom would be given to another people's, He gave that Kingdom to the Greeks, would it not make sense then that the Messiah would have a Greek name? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
72.80.190.155 (
talk)
23:47, 29 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Yarim Ha’Am Veyokhiakh Shedvaro Vetorato Omdim
I'm not sure, but this story about a Rabbi blurting out the word Yeshua in Kabbalistic language is interesting, and might deserve a mention if its relevancy is correctly pointed out or demonstrated.
[1]ADM (
talk)
20:25, 1 March 2009 (UTC)reply
You misunderstood, this is not some "Kabbalistic language". Please re-read: The Hebrew(!) sentence "Yarim Ha’Am Veyokhiakh Shedvaro Vetorato Omdim" translated simply means "He will lift the people and prove that his word and law are valid". [And from the context it is very easy to understand what it means.] As it says: "The initials [first letters of each word] spell the Hebrew name of Jesus". (And he is not talking about Christian Jesus, just to make sure.) -- 21:56, 23 August 2014 178.202.127.181
There is not one single Christian source that links this pejorative hebrew spelling of Yeshua/Jesus. It is complete crap that it is in this article and I suggest that it is removed. In the interm I posted reference from printed articles showing that it is infact pejorative and biased. --
Teacherbrock (
talk)
12:44, 25 October 2010 (UTC)reply
This article is about Yeshua, not Yeshu. If you want to include material about the latter being perjorative, maybe the
Yeshu article would be a better place. Also, when you put in citations, use the book's name, author and page number, not the google link. --
Noleander (
talk)
23:26, 25 October 2010 (UTC)reply
The name
Yeshu is a deliberately inaccurate transcription of
Yeshua, for this reason I have removed it. I note it is already somewhat dubiously listed in the disambiguation page for
Yeshua, where it is described as 'a Hebrew scribal abbreviation for enemies'.
Cpsoper (
talk)
22:08, 25 April 2014 (UTC)reply
Disambig links at top
Teacherbrock: the convention in WP is to have a single disambiguation sentence/paragraph at the top, not 2 separate paragraphs. Is that okay? --
Noleander (
talk)
17:23, 27 October 2010 (UTC)reply
Way over-elaborate - Yeshua simply is the name used in Hebrew and Aramaic. List variants if you must, but there's really no need.
PiCo (
talk)
00:40, 29 July 2011 (UTC)reply
Yahshua and Yeshua as separate names (in addition to Yahshua being abbreviated to Yeshua)
I propose my previous edit be reinstated, as it is factually accurate.
Whereas Yahshua is abbreviated to Yeshua, Yeshua is also a separate name.
Yahshua is a theophoric name, abbreivated to Yeshua; whereas Yeshua as a separate name is a verbal form of Shua.
The same goes for Yoseph and Yehoseph; Yoseph is a verbal form of Seph, and also (separately) an abbreviated form of the theophoric Yehoseph.
Many other examples exist. I strongly challege the undoing of my contribution.
"Yahshua" does not occur anywhere in the Bible or Hebrew/Aramaic literature. Rather, there's the name Yəhōšūʕ which is abbreviated to Yēšūʕ (or Yəhōšūaʕ which is abbreviated to Yēšūaʕ in the forms of the names as they're preserved by the Masoretes, though the "a" vowels were non-syllabic, and would not have been present in the pronunciation of the Biblical period itself). Yēšūʕ probably does contain a shortened form of the Tetragrammaton (etymologically at least), but formulas such as "Yehoshua is a theophoric name, combining Yeho and Shua"[sic] are extremely simplistic and not really accurate, and unhelpful in the context of this article. "Yoseph" is a finite inflected verb type of Semitic name, and not derived from "Seph"[sic]. If you don't know that Semitic-language etymologies generally proceed by way of
triliteral roots, then you won't get too far in this area...
AnonMoos (
talk)
07:43, 30 December 2012 (UTC)reply
Those are very unhelpful statements, you clearly miss the point. Personal opinions are irrelevant. I'm not debating pronounciations with you, as nobody knows them. Yeshua is known to be both a shortened form of Yehoshua (or as it is often spelled including on Wikipedia, Yahshua) as well as a verbal form of Shua. The same goes for Yosef, it is both a theophoric name and otherwise. You can't disagree with facts. As for trilateral roots, it has NOTHING to do with this, (you're clearly trying to show off) and is not always the case as you have to admit. In either case, Shua is trilateral (shin waw ayin). I'm quite stunned at your tone. Notice further that Yehosha (Yehoshua) doesn't have a waw, being Hoshea with a yod prefix, as is evident from the case of Hosea son of Nun getting the name Joshua (Yehosha) by simply adding a letter. This too underlines how Yeshua (always spelled with waw) isa separate name from Yehosh(u)a.
Dude, I'm sorry, but consonantal roots (triliteral or sometimes quadriliteral) have to do with almost everything in the Semitic languages. There are some exceptions (such as grammatical particles, or a few basic nouns such as those for "father" or "fish" or "hand"), but in a typical older Semitic language, 100% of verb forms and 95% of noun and adjective forms (excluding foreign proper names) are based on consonantal roots. The name Yəhōšūʕ and its variant Yēšūʕ are most commonly referred to the root y-š-ʕ which is actually the root w-š-ʕ due to a historical sound change of transforming "w" at the beginning of a word to "y" (except in the case of the conjunction). The word šūʕ (or "šūaʕ") comes from a root š-w-ʕ, which is different from y-š-ʕ/w-š-ʕ. Furthermore, when you state that Yehoshua = Yeho + Shua, it seems that you're thinking in terms of a type of noun compounding which doesn't really occur in the Semitic languages (except in the rather different construct+absolute genitive construction). Also, your claim that Yəhōšūʕ is Hōšēʕ "with a yod prefix" would appear to undermine your claims elsewhere that that Yəhōšūʕ is theophoric. The basic "yod prefix" of names in Hebrew and closely-related languages is actually the imperfect third person masculine singular verb inflection, since verbs conjugated according to consonantal roots can be used as names in this languages. So Yiṣħaq (a verb form meaning "he laughs", formed from triconsonantal root ץחק) is the name usually rendered into English as "Isaac". No one claims that Yiṣħaq is theophoric --
AnonMoos (
talk)
17:16, 5 January 2013 (UTC)reply
YESHUWA
I believe this sentance should be added to the article; "Yeshua is spelled with a W in the
Strong's Concordance as YESHUWA which has seven letters in it not just six."
Did you know the name Jesus is just the same name as Joshua? Joshua is a corruption of Yahshua and Yahshua is not the true spelling which is Yeshua. In the Hebrew there is a constinant letter there denoting the W which most people are dropping so therefore it should be YESHUWA. Note that the long form of YESHUWA is YEHOSHUWA. It is awe inspiring that the name YEHOVAH the name of the Father has the same letters as the name of the Son. YEHOSHUA just has the inset SHU and the H dropped off the end. As you know the Hebrew letter W and V are the same letter in Hebrew. In the Strong's Concordance the real root word of YEHOVAH is listed but no claims are made that it is the root of YEHOVAH. That root is HOVAH. For an explination of this see the take page of "
Jehovah".
108.81.134.196 (
talk)
23:39, 30 December 2012 (UTC)reply
I'm sorry, but
Strong's Concordance is a convenient form of "Greek and Hebrew for those English-speakers who don't actually feel like learning Greek and Hebrew", and is really not a definitive source on anything. Many of your other claims are extremely dubious at best. Semitic-language etymologies most often proceed by way of
triconsonantal roots, and if you don't understand that, then you won't get very far in this subject matter. The idea that the name of Jesus can be derived by adding a letter "shin" in the middle of the Tetragrammaton is the
Pentagrammaton, which was originally invented by Renaissance occultists, and has not been accepted by Biblical or Hebrew scholarship.
AnonMoos (
talk)
21:27, 30 December 2012 (UTC)reply
Requested move 13 May 2016
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
– "Yeshua" is most popularly refers to the
name Yeshua. As you can see using the Pageview Analysis program from WMF Labs, the name of Yeshua receives
c. 843 views per day, while the other variant spellings and subjects with the name of Yeshua get very low views per day, the highest being with the spelling
Yeshu, with
c. 84 views per day. The name Yeshua is the primary topic. Therefore, per policy, the name of Yeshua should be
primary topic and there should be a disambiguation page named Yeshua (disambiguation) with the other spelling variants and subjects with the name. CookieMonster755📞✉✓ 03:07, 13 May 2016 (UTC) -- RelistedAnarchyte (
work |
talk)01:27, 22 May 2016 (UTC)reply
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requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Requested move 22 July 2016
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requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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I know, I did a requested move back in May, but now I realize it was a mistake. Though the name is primary usage of Yeshua, it should be moved back to
Yeshua (name) with the name "Yeshua" redirecting to
Jesus of Nazareth. The
name Jesus comes from the name Yeshua, and many people, specifically
Messianic Jews, refer to Jesus strictly as Yeshua. That is why I believe Yeshua should redirect to Jesus, and the current page be named Yeshua (name). Besides, Yeshua Ha Mashiach (Jesus the Messiah or Jesus Christ in Hebrew) already redirects to Jesus, and I believe plainly Yeshua should too because it most commonly refers to Jesus and is used strictly by Messianic Jews and
Hebrew Roots Christianity. If you do a quick
Google search, you will see that everything that comes up is related to Jesus (the)
Christ (of Nazareth).
Ḉɱ̍2nd anniv.17:07, 22 July 2016 (UTC)reply
I was asked to "leave my thoughts", not to vote a particular way.
WP:CANVASS says that "it is perfectly acceptable to notify other editors of ongoing discussions". I want to
WP:AGF, but this "note" really seems to be just an underhanded way of discrediting my vote.
juju (
hajime! |
waza)
22:49, 22 July 2016 (UTC)reply
You were brought here in a non-transparent manner by the nominator. You don't need to be asked to !vote in a particular manner to be canvassed. See
WP:APPNOTE for more information. My note was simply to make the canvass transparent, not to discredit your !vote. --
Tavix(
talk)22:52, 22 July 2016 (UTC)reply
You are the one being non-transparent. You keep quoting policies and guidelines that undermine your own point, hoping no one actually reads them and will just be intimidated by the "WP:" in front. This one,
WP:APPNOTE, says: "An editor who may wish to draw a wider range of informed, but uninvolved, editors to a discussion can place a message at any of the following: #4 On the user talk pages of concerned editors. Examples include: #4c Editors known for expertise in the field" (in this case, Christianity in general).
CookieMonster did nothing wrong, and you know it. I would believe your stated motive except that your rationale is 100% bogus, by the very policies you cite.
juju (
hajime! |
waza)
22:58, 22 July 2016 (UTC)reply
I'm simply making it transparent how you were brought to this discussion. That's it. Okay? I'm collapsing this since it's not adding anything to the discussion at hand. --
Tavix(
talk)22:59, 22 July 2016 (UTC)reply
I'll end simply by pointing out that
WP:STEALTH only considers off-wiki communication to be "non-transparent", while
WP:APPNOTE considers user talk page notification perfectly transparent; so I really don't see why you felt compelled to point this out.
juju (
hajime! |
waza)
23:13, 22 July 2016 (UTC)reply
Oppose – The
Yeshua article is very informative and mentions extensively the etymology and Hebrew usage. Moving back to a
Jesus redirect would lower the encyclopedic level of this entry. Besides, in the Hebrew Bible, Yeshua refers to several figures called Joshua as well as Jesus, so I doubt that Jesus can be considered the
WP:PTOPIC for "Yeshua". —
JFGtalk22:35, 22 July 2016 (UTC)reply
Oppose. What would someone searching for "Yeshua" be searching for? Since our English-speaking audience knows Jesus as "Jesus," people typically aren't going to be looking for Jesus. Instead, they're probably curious about the name in general. --
Tavix(
talk)22:43, 22 July 2016 (UTC)reply
Since our English-speaking audience knows Jesus as "Jesus," people typically aren't going to be looking for Jesus. Sorry, but that ain't the best argument. There are many foreign language redirects to their English counterpart, because people know the subject by both names, such as this for example. But I will leave that up to you, since you are an admin and I know you have good judgement, my friend :) I am just trying to help out with the Wikipedia community.
Ḉɱ̍2nd anniv.01:09, 23 July 2016 (UTC)reply
Oppose This article exists in its own right, and is neither about just the name nor just about Jesus. The nomination is perhaps POV inspired?
Debresser (
talk)
18:00, 23 July 2016 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Messianic Jews use Y'shua for Jesus
To set themselves off, Messianic Jews use 'Y'shua' instead of Jesus. This has the same pronunciation as 'Yeshua'. Using English
Gematria with the key of A=1, B2 C3...Z26, Y'shua=74=Y25+S19+H8+U21+A1. G-d=7_4, Judeans=74, Jewish=74, Messiah=74, Joshua=74, Jesus=74, etc.
2601:589:4700:2390:C129:9F7B:16E0:CDCC (
talk)
15:19, 9 November 2017 (UTC)reply
Requested move 25 January 2018
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Yeshua → Yeshua (name) – The name Yeshua (Hebrew: ישוע, translit. Yēšū́aʿ) overwhelming refers to
Jesus, and not simply the name itself. If you do a Google Book search
here), the first 6+ page results refer specifically to Jesus, returning 45,000 results.
Yeshua Ha Mashiach,
Yeshua Messiah and other variations already redirect to Jesus. Messianic Jews, as well as Hebrew speaking people refer to Jesus as Yeshua. The current setup is inconvenient – Yeshua should redirect to Jesus per
WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT with the name at
Yeshua (name). The very name Jesus originates from the name Yeshua. Academic works point to the usage of "Yeshua" as referring to Jesus, "This is likely an inference from the Talmud and other Jewish usage, where Jesus is called Yeshu, and other Jews with the same name are called by the fuller name Yehoshua, 'Joshua'" (Robert E. Van Voorst, Jesus outside the New Testament, 2000, ISBN 978-0-8028-4368-5 p. 124). Other academic work also supports the usage of common usage of Yeshua to refer to Jesus. CookieMonster755✉01:09, 25 January 2018 (UTC)reply
Oppose Yeshua can be any post-exilic Joshua. The only notable time the spelling occurs in the Bible it refers to
Yeshua the High Priest in Zechariah 3 etc., not to Jesus. But more oppose since anyone looking it up would presumably be wanting the name itself.
In ictu oculi (
talk)
10:55, 25 January 2018 (UTC)reply
Leaning oppose. My thinking here is that if people want to look up Jesus, they will look up
Jesus. Someone who bothers to type in Yeshua is probably looking for something else.
bd2412T16:27, 26 January 2018 (UTC)reply
Oppose This is English Wikipedia, I highly doubt that most people will be typing Yeshua to go to such a well known figure as Jesus.ZXCVBNM (
TALK)23:11, 26 January 2018 (UTC)reply
Oppose -- None of the occurrences in of Hebrew Yeshua` in the Bible at Ezra 2:2, 2:6, 2:36, 2:40, 3:2, 3:8, 3:9, 3:10, 3:18, 4:3, 8:33; Nehemiah 3:19, 7:7, 7:11, 7:39, 7:43, 8:7, 8:17, 9:4, 9:5, 11:26, 12:1, 12:7, 12:8, 12:10, 12:24, 12:26; 1 Chronicles 24:11; 2 Chronicles 31:15, or Ezra 5:2 refer to Jesus of Nazareth. The Hellenistic Greek form Ιησους was the common equivalent of both Hebrew Yeshua (Jeshua) and also Hebrew Joshua, and occurs in the
Septuagint and
Josephus etc. referring to people other than Jesus of Nazareth (it actually even occurs in the Greek New Testament referring to people other than Jesus of Nazareth (see Acts 7:45 etc.).
AnonMoos (
talk)
03:03, 30 January 2018 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
I added... Y'shua is the correct way to spell Jesus in trying to get as close as possible as to how the Messiah's name was pronounced in the Aramaic of his day. Some Messianic-Jews having been spelling it as Y'shua since the 1960s
99.169.79.198 (
talk)
15:55, 11 October 2021 (UTC)reply
The name in the Hebrew of the Old Testament (and in the Aramaic of the Old Testametn at Ezra 5:2), is annotated with the tsere diacritic of two horizontally-arranged dots below the letter, which indicates a real [e] vowel (in some systems of transcription, it would indicate a long [e] vowel). It is not transcribed with the shewa or schwa diacritic of two vertically-arranged dots below the letter, which would indicate a reduced vowel...
AnonMoos (
talk)
16:06, 19 February 2023 (UTC)reply