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Which of these is best for the lead image? (Please rank.) Kolya Butternut ( talk) 22:50, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
And some more...
Added image below, 12:56, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
Pinging recent discussion participants: @ Nagualdesign, JoePhin, Randy Kryn, Volteer1, Finnusertop, Genericusername57, Gandydancer, Kokopelli7309, WhatamIdoing, and Rhododendrites:
"give readers visual confirmation that they've arrived at the right page( WP:LEADIMAGE) because they don't show enough dimensions which would, at-a-glance, communicate the topic of the page as "woman", and don't show enough differentiation from "man". For example, a number of physical features typical of women (as different from men) are not represented clearly - such as lack of defined breast or hip shape - a fully nude image would accomplish this. Other indications of typical societal role aren't apparent either - for example, as the only population which carries children, a picture of a pregnant woman would be far more valuable. The current image "A" exemplifies what I'm saying as it offers few visual clues about the actual topic and doesn't immediately read as a "woman". The photo "G" is particularly low-quality (the pink and black areas don't show much definition, becoming two solid blocks of color which visually "blow out" the overall image) and badly-posed. The most important thing when considering images for this is to imagine you cannot read the text of the page, the caption, or the filename of the image. If you saw any of these images on a Wikipedia page from a language you can't read, would you be reasonably be sure you are on the "Woman" page vs something else? Because, for a basic concept article like this, its quite likely a lot of readers coming here are English learners. -- Netoholic @ 03:37, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
... no article on Wikipedia tries to visually encapsulate every permutation of its subject matter. This is a good thing. If our goal in choosing an image is not to illustrate every major 'type' of humans, but simply to depict any old random human, there is vastly less potential for our biases to infect our selection." Kolya Butternut ( talk) 04:46, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
The first image is the default lead image (the one that is pushed to previews such as mouseover and search engine results). ... Deleting the lead image and going back to the way it was in October 2018–January 2019, with an image of the female reproductive system as the lead image, is not an option." Kolya Butternut ( talk) 05:06, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
The consensus of the WP:NOETHNICGALLERIES RfC does not say not to use single images- this seems very much like a spirit/letter distinction. the arguments there would apply to a single image more than a gallery, for the most part. As for the issue of needing a lead image, I do recall now that you or someone else mentioned this previously and I forgot. So I went and tested it with some mouse-over pop-ups. The pop-up for links for African Americans to not just pull up the top image; it doesn't include any image. I don't know what the technical reasons/limitations/quirks are, but that would seem to indicate there's a way to avoid having an image. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 13:56, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
represents a "mechanic" more than just a "woman", especially when the current lead image on Man doesn't represent any particular occupation; though I'd note that File:Outdoors-man-portrait (cropped).jpg has significantly better lighting than many of the options above. In terms of choice I'd say C > G > D > most others. D has somewhat poor lighting compared to C and G. feminist (talk) 04:27, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
“ | If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it. | ” |
This RfC is effectively two RfCs in one:
If there is no consensus on the first question, the status quo is to have an image. We then move on to the second question which no longer includes B as an option, so I would say there is clearly a consensus for C. Kolya Butternut ( talk) 00:43, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
VOTERS DATA
|
---|
The [ [ "Netoholic", "B" ], [ "Rhododendrites", "B" ], [ "Locke Cole", "B" ], [ "Atom", "BCJ" ], [ "216.2.69.77", "B" ], [ "Sea Ane", "B" ], [ "Emir of Wikipedia", "-BKLP" ], [ "Goszei", "B" ], [ "Clayoquot", "B" ], [ "Clear Looking Glass", "B" ], [ "Kolya Butternut", "DCGFE" ], [ "Crossroads", "DCEAGFB" ], [ "Gandydancer", "D" ], [ "SMcCandlish", "DG" ], [ "BristolTreeHouse", "D" ], [ "Randy Kryn", "C" ], [ "Volteer1", "CDJM" ], [ "KieranStanley", "C" ], [ "Some1", "CD" ], [ "KieranStanley", "C" ], [ "Rosguill", "CAHGELJMOI" ], [ "Betty Logan", "CD" ], [ "Loki", "CDGKL" ], [ "Feminist", "CGD-B" ], [ "Nsae Comp", "CXB" ], [ "Finnusertop", "AGH" ], [ "JPxG", "-A" ], [ "Yousef Raz", "A" ], [ "Mathglot", "MLIJK" ], [ "Aquillion", "MJIE-B" ], [ "Aircorn", "M" ], [ "HRwatcher", "MDGLIO" ], [ "Idealigic", "KLNO" ], [ "Joe", "LP-BN" ], [ "Wikignometry", "-P" ], [ "Bilorv", "-BKLN" ] ] |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Considering how it's evidently hard to represent all aspects of a female human being and by taking into account MOS:LEADIMAGE I came to the following conclusion. Based on the data ("votes") presented above I've calculated weights of choices and got the following plots. The methodology is simple:
I like D
I oppose B
Graphs are unavailable due to technical issues. There is more info on Phabricator and on MediaWiki.org. |
Graphs are unavailable due to technical issues. There is more info on Phabricator and on MediaWiki.org. |
As you can see the WP:CONSENSUS is leaning toward C. Whether acceptable or not I'm ready to close this RfC as C image to adopt. In my personal the C is chosen as the least worst image here, which has little good weight. But anyway. Anyone got objections if I close this discussion by pointing out to the C as final choice? -- AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 19:59, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
... oppose B ...counted as 6 can be excluded from counting as -1 weight altogether considering that all 6 opposing B voters elaborated on which Image they would choose. The rest can be counted simply as +1. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 21:09, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
@ Rhododendrites and Firefangledfeathers: If the following methodology is taken:
[0.8, 0.66, 0.5, 0.33, 0.2, 0.11, 0.05]
.
the distribution is following:
Graphs are unavailable due to technical issues. There is more info on Phabricator and on MediaWiki.org. |
Graphs are unavailable due to technical issues. There is more info on Phabricator and on MediaWiki.org. |
The difference (compared to previous approach) here is due to different ranking of choices made by every user. E.g. in sequence of D,C,G
and C,D,G
the C will have different weights: 0.66
vs 0.8
.
-- AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 22:10, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
... separate this case from ethnic galleries ...This argument wasn't firmly invalidated so summarily I conclude that opinions tendency is toward following WP:NOETHNICGALLERIES for now. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 22:52, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
... about determining which ...Not that really. NoConsensus is a real option here.
... and two graphs above ...Well the first two graphs (first approach) are flawed because it doesn't take into account precedence of image choices. It counted every choice as equally good meanwhile people made it clear that they range them from most to least preferable. That's what the second approach takes into account. You shouldn't be looking at the first graphs, they are false.
... they should launch a separate RfC...This is the venue that nom should probably take, I'm sure that.
A non-admin closure is not appropriate in any of the following situations... The outcome is a close call (especially where there are several valid outcomes) or likely to be controversial. Such closes are better left to an administrator.Some1 ( talk) 12:20, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
Using the standard Instant-runoff voting method, I made the below table:
Ranked choices | Eliminate EFGHIJKL, NOP, collage | Eliminate A, M | Eliminate D | Final | ||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
1 | Kolya Butternut | DCGFE | C | C | ||
2 | Netoholic | B | B | |||
3 | Randy Kryn | C | C | |||
4 | Rhododendrites | B | B | |||
5 | Crossroads | DCEAGFB | C | C | ||
6 | Mathglot | MLIJK | eliminated | |||
7 | Bilorv | anything but BKLN or collage | C | C | ||
8 | Locke Cole | B | B | |||
9 | Volteer1 | CDJMF, anything but B or collage | C | |||
10 | KieranStanley | C, collage | C | |||
11 | Some1 | CD, anything but B or collage | C | |||
12 | AnomalousAtom | BCJ | BC | |||
13 | Aquillion | MJIECGHOD, oppose FANKLPB or collage | CD | C | ||
14 | 216.2.69.77 | B | B | |||
15 | Firejuggler86 | N | eliminated | |||
16 | Rosguill | CAHGELJMOI | C | |||
17 | Sea Ane | B | B | |||
18 | Idealigic | KLNO | eliminated | |||
19 | Finnusertop | A | eliminated | |||
20 | -sche | AGHP | eliminated | |||
21 | Pincrete | oppose A | oppose status quo | |||
22 | Betty Logan | DC | C | C | ||
23 | Loki | CDG, most others, KL | C | |||
24 | feminist | CGD, most others, oppose B | C | |||
25 | JoePhin | group photo, LP, most others, oppose BN | most others, oppose B | C | C | |
26 | Emir of Wikipedia | singular woman, oppose BKLP | C | C | ||
27 | Nsae Comp | C, collage, B | C | |||
28 | Gandydancer | D | eliminated | |||
29 | Aircorn | M | eliminated | |||
30 | SMCCandlish | DG, oppose NP, etc. | eliminated | |||
31 | Wikignometry | oppose P | ||||
32 | Goszei | B | B | |||
33 | Clayoquot | B, collage | B | |||
34 | Hrwatcher | collage, MDGLIO | MD | D | eliminated | |
35 | jpxg | oppose A | oppose status quo | |||
36 | BristolTreeHouse | DGLA | eliminated | |||
37 | Clear Looking Glass | B | B | |||
38 | Yousef Raz | A | eliminated |
Round 1 | Round 2 | Round 3 | Round 4 | Ping uncounted !voters | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
A | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | |
B | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | |
C | 8 | 8 | 9 | 15 | |
D | 6 | 6 | 7 | 0 | |
E | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | |
F | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | |
G | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | |
H | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | |
I | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | |
J | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | |
K | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | |
L | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | |
M | 3 | 4 | 0 | 0 | |
N | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | |
O | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | |
P | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | |
collage | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
I think the close should be based on a combination of these votes and the !vote arguments. We should also ping editors whose votes wouldn't end up being counted with this method and ask them to weigh in on B and C. Kolya Butternut ( talk) 09:24, 20 May 2021 (UTC) update BristolTreeHouse Kolya Butternut ( talk) 17:38, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
... at least works to get us down to two choices ...Mine got us to one, but even then I have serious doubts that it's stable consensus.
... we should be evaluating what the desired criteria are for this image. ...See my post above. It's hard to choose the appropriate one. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 13:00, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
... which breaks the consistency of having a lead image held in Man, Human, ...Well if we take this into account, probably we have to go for "C" for now...
... which keeps the present staged-model image ...This doesn't prevent you from voting again or extending the current vote, seriously. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 14:19, 23 May 2021 (UTC)