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I would revert but I don't think that statement was true either. 130.63.18.225 made the edits about tap dancing and was reverted by 172.176.128.120. Unless evidence can be brought that he tapdanced I suggest we leave the new edits be. Falphin 02:48, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
The article states that Steinitz didn't earn money playing chess. However, it also says that Lasker was very keen to keep the championship title to avoid poverty. Shouldn't it be explained why Steinitz got no money and Lasker tried to earn all his money from Chess? The current wording is confusing. MJGR 09:54, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
The "story" has often been told that Steinitz claimed to be able to win a match at odds with God or that he claimed to have actually played a match with God. (There is more than one version of this legend.) However, nobody has ever found a record of such a story before the Reuben Fine book on the psychology of the chessplayer. This book was written decades after the death of Steinitz by an author who made no claims about having a verifiable source. Page 42: "One story says that [Steinitz] claimed to be in electrical communication with God, and that he could give God Pawn and move." It seems quite possible that Fine had incorrectly remembered something he had read on page 9 of Irving Chernev's book, The Bright Side of Chess: "Steinitz had enough [confidence] to say once that he did not believe even God could give him Pawn and move odds!" (Irving Chernev gave no source for his version of the story either.) Sadly, many authors have repeated and apparently embellished the "story" from the Fine book without considering the uncertainty about its origin. It would be nice if Wikipedia did not contribute to this unfortunate trend. - Louis Blair (September 24, 2006)
I agree 100%. an encyclopedia can not present crazy rumors and non-referenced facts and expect to keep any sort of reputation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Azzy7 ( talk • contribs) 03:34, August 26, 2007 (UTC)
New International Encyclopedia states that George Henry Mackenzie won the world championship at Frankfort in 1887. That must have been a "disputed" title, though. GhostofSuperslum 01:24, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
In the intro I added the point that Steinitz and Morphy are widely considered the founders of modern chess. Cited Lasker but you can find the same evaluation in virtually any chess text. I also changed "held in high regard" to "further developed" to get across the idea of an organic development of chess theory.
In "Life" section I added some description of Steinitz's unusual physique and difficult temperament, citing Harold Schoenberg's entertaining history of chess masters. Doubtless there are more meticulously researched sources but I think Schoenberg is pretty reliable. In addition, it's a book that will hold the interest of high school and college students, who seem to be the biggest users of Wikipedia.
I reworded the Lasker quote because the version given wasn't sourced, and I found a different wording in my translation of Lasker's Manual of Chess.
Comments welcome.
Eldred 05:52, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
In the interest of resolving this on the discussion page, rather than join others such as Ioannes Pragensis in their endless series of reverts on this and other pages over the past two day, I move this discussion for the moment to this talk page.
Pragensis has suggested that zionism and judaism are the same thing. In the article on Wilhelm Steinitz, Pragensis based his revert of the fact that Steinitz was Jewish as "second-hand zionist ideology."
When I pointed out in discusson on the history page that he was confusing two separate issues, he again RVd while taking the position that the citations were "dubious." His characterization was not supported by anything other than his POV.
After Pragensis had already engaged in 3 reverts, EliminatorJR (upon solicitation from Pragensis) RVd the page, despite my request that edit warring and reverts be ceased, and that discussion be had instead on the talk page.
I might point out that this series of reverts by Pragensis parallel those that he has made over the past two days in a number of other articles. Pragensis has now for example also asserted in the Mikhail Botvinnik article that Jews should not be reflected as such if they are Soviet or Communists. Similar problems have been caused by RVs these past two days in the articles on Reuben Fine, Samuel Reshevsky, Aron Nimzowitsch, and Aron Nimzowitsch.
Since this is part of a series of similar instances, relating to other Jewish chess players, I suggest that discussion be had on the talk page of Reuben Fine, where I have initiated discussion with a more fullsome analysis of the arguments presented.
This is a problem, I would submit, that goes beyond this article. It continues, as Pragensis continues to strip these mentions out of Wiki bios, despite discussion and multiple citations (his answer to the citations is to delete them).
2. I would suggest that the RVs that I have pointed out by others are bereft of basis or citations.
Therefore, I would ask that they undo their RVs of the sourced material while this discussion takes place on this page.
Furthermore, for the above reasons, I believe that the original language should remain permanently.
3. I would be grateful for suggestions as to both how to fix this issue on this page, and in general.
Thanks.-- Epeefleche 20:59, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
I removed the whole section "Chess and the Jews" which was based on a single citation (n.b. not a sentence published by Steinitz himself in one of his works but only an indirect citation). It shows Steinitz as a Jewish racist, which may be true, but it does not deserve a mention here, because it has nothing in common with real Steinitz' chess merits, and therefore is hardly notable; even if Steinitz really believed that his "pure breed" race is "the best natured of all peoples", it would surely not deserve a whole section here. Steinitz was not Goebbels, he was never seen as an expert in the "racial theory" and never had a notable political influence. ( WP:UNDUE: Just as giving undue weight to a viewpoint is not neutral, so is giving undue weight to other verifiable and sourced statements. An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements.) Moreover if mentioned here, it should be well referenced from Steinitz' own writings, as this is a relatively heavy accusation from today's point of view.-- Ioannes Pragensis 14:20, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Ioannes and Rocksong. Steinitz was a great chessplayer and had great ideas about chess. On other subjects, including this one, he was no expert, and even something of a crackpot. While the fact that so many chessplayers are Jewish is an interesting one, and might well be the subject of an article, Steinitz's take on it is not particularly interesting or insightful. So I don't see any reason to include this material in the Steinitz article. Eldred 04:39, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Whether we work towards a page on Chess and the Jews, something I gather editors such as IP may well object to, I think that this is sufficently notable here given Winter's reference to it for mention to be made here, even if in a less prominent fashion than it appeared previously.
-- Epeefleche 00:20, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I think it would be fair and factual to note (without any theorizing) how many Champions were Jews - Steinitz, Lasker, Botvinnik, Smyslov, Tal, Spassky, Fischer (half-Jewish, paternity debated) and Kasparov (half-Jewish, his father's name was Weinstein). Then you could add those who were in the top 5 of their times - Zukertort (his father was a Christian Protestant missionary of Jewish origin), Tarrasch, Rubinstein, Nimzowitsch, Flohr, Kashdan, Reshevsky, Fine, Boleslavsky, Bronstein, Geller, Korchnoi (50%), etc. I haven't even got near the last 20 years, and have probably missed out several oldies. For refs, you could start with GREATEST JEWISH CHESS PLAYERS ("Of the fifty-one highest ranked players, approximately one-half were Jewish, or of Jewish descent" - Elo's historical ratings) Philcha ( talk) 04:42, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Does anybody have a good source for the incident where Steinitz was playing a game by telegraph with somebody -- Lasker, maybe, or Chigorin -- and got arrested by the police for espionage because they thought he was transmitting information in a secret code? I think it would be an interesting and funny addition to the article. (Hopefully Winter hasn't proved this story was aprocryphal!) Eldred 04:43, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
NY Times Mar 11 1894 should be used - if I don't get around to it, someone else should. Philcha ( talk) 22:51, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
The pattern I see emerging from Steinitz' record is that he was more concerned with developing his theories and demonstrating their superiority than with winning contests or making money:
In other words he used journalism to promote his theories, returned to competition when office politics made journalism unavailable as a pulpit, set up his own journal, found that beating Zukertort in 1886 was the best possible advertising, and actively sought championship matches after that - even against Lasker.
Does anyone know of any good historical sources that would cast light on Steinitz' motivations? (Not Fine-style retrofitted psychoanalyses). If we could add well-supported material on Steinitz' motivations it would add human interest, which most chess articles tend to lack (not just in Wikipedia).
It would also be very useful to have information about the state of Steinitz' finances throughout his career. For example cash shortage may have forced him to play Lasker in 1894. And in 1888-89 he had a sponsor lined up (Havana Chess Club) then went looking for an opponent (Chigorin).
But I still suspect that money was more of a hygiene factor than a motivating factor for Steinitz - contrast Joseph Henry Blackburne, who made a very nice income out of his frequent exhibitions. Philcha ( talk) 13:16, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
The following are backup copies of material for which new places need to be found:
Philcha ( talk) 19:31, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
chessbaseVienna1882
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).NYTimes1887OnSteinitz
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Fine1952WorldsGreatChessGames
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Fine (The World's Great Chess Games) says "By 1871 Steinitz' enemies in London ... imported at foreign player, Zukertort, to dethrone him." All the material I've found recently about the politics of chess during Steinitz' reign is about the 1880s. Does anyone know of any material that would support or refute Fine's statement? Philcha ( talk) 00:09, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Which is correct as a possessive: Steinitz' or Steinitz's ? This article has it both ways. Daniel Freeman ( talk) 02:05, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
I commented out as unsourced an alleged quote from Petrosian: "The significance of Steinitz's teaching is that he showed that in principle chess has a strictly defined, logical nature." Can we find a good ref for this? 3 of the 4 that Google returns are Wikipedia clones. Philcha ( talk) 10:55, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
The text currently says this: Lasker won convincingly (5 wins, 10 losses, 4 draws). I'm trying to figure out whether the results in parenthesis are from Steinitz' viewpoint, or if it's just a mistake or something... maybe it should be clarified if anybody knows.
Seigneur101 ( talk) 02:17, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
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"Chess is a scientific game and its literature ought to be placed on the basis of the strictest truthfulness, which is the foundation of all scientific research." — W. Steinitz. SunCreator ( talk) 23:48, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
This edit added "It's common knowledge that immediately after the last game, Steinitz shook Lasker's hand, then invited the spectators to salute the new World Champion with three Hurras" (after 1894 match), but without a citation. I'm about to remove it. I'll reinstate it if anyone can provide a good source. -- Philcha ( talk) 04:15, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
The article says "Some contemporaries and later writers described him as world champion since 1866, when he won a match against Adolf Anderssen, while other contemporaries considered him champion when he beat Zukertort in 1871." It needs to name some of those people and give a reference. Bubba73 (Who's attacking me now?), 04:20, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
Hi everybody,
I noticed SyG deleted my addition concerning the fact that some of the ideas of Steinitz, in embryonic form, were formulated in the Traité des Amateurs by some contemporaries of Philidor in 1775. I am referring to the concept that at the beginning of the game the forces stand in equilibrium; correct play on both sides maintains this equilibrium and leads to a drawn game, therefore a player can win only as a consequence of an error made by the opponent. From this prospective, there is no such a thing as a winning move and even the most skilled master can do nothing against these natural laws of the game. You can find this in different points of the "Traite des amateurs". I added this because it is not known and quite surprising. Philidor, for instance, had a different opinion since he tought that with correct play white should win.
My addition was deleted on the basis that it was not referenced. That is perferctly fine, of course, I am not here to criticize SyG's opinion. I just want to understand how to make a better contribution. Thus, just for my understanding, I tought my contribution was referenced enough since I quoted the reference to the Traite des amateurs with the link to google books where you can go and read what I was talking about. Did somebody read it? Is that not enough as a reference? What do you think should be a better way to referenciate it? I thought that to add in the references exactly the book where this was formulated was the best reference you can have. Initially I wanted to quote directly the introductive section of Chapter IV, which is one point of the Traite where this is explained
"The combinations being endless, it is clear that the winning or losing of the game, between players equal in point of skill, must depend on the first bad, or what amounts to the same thing, the first lost move on either side; we cannot, therefore, avoid protesting against the erroneous doctrine laid down by Philidor and others, that he who has the first move, ought to win the game in consequence of that advantage. We proceed to prove, from the very games adduced by Phihdor in support of his position, these three important points. Firstly, that the move alone can never be considered a sufficient advantage to insure success : Secondly, that he who has not the move, will very soon acquire it, or neutralize its effects; and, Lastly, that supposing each move to be the best that could possibly be played, the game ought to be drawn."
which is interesting considering that it was written one century before Steinitz. But then I tought it was too much since this is the article about Steinitz not about the Traite. Moreover, there was the link to the Traite page where everything is explained. What do you think?
Sersunzo (
talk)
04:20, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
I see your point and indeed you are right; this particular quote was mainly focused on replying to Philidor. I see some connections, tough, because it implies the concet of natural equilibrium of forces. The equilibrium can only be altered by bad moves they say. They of course focus on the first bad move, because they have in mind the starting position, but Steinitz law would be a natural extention of their reasoning. If you think at the romantic era, where the focus was on good moves that a genius could create out of noting, the amateurs are anticipating Steinitz. Of course, this is not automatic or completely clear in the Traite (otherwise we would say today amateurs' laws instead of Stainit's laws). This is why I added "in embryonic form". I don not want to add anything to the article if is not shared, but to me simple sentence like:
"Some ideas of Steinitz, altough in embryonic form, can be found in the Traite des amateurs" would be not out of place.
Thanks for your attention Sersunzo ( talk) 13:24, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
Ok, never mind. I do not want to insist. Just for sake of clarity, however. I was not saying that the Traite des amateurs influenced Steinitz. He quoted Paulsen and for what we know Steinitz maybe did not even read the Traite. I was just saying that in the Traite you can find some ideas that remind what Steinitz said one century later, which is not obvious and, in fact, the romantic school had a different view. Although I can see how this alone could be not enough for including it in this page of wikipedia. Thanks for the discussion anyway.
Sersunzo ( talk) 15:25, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure what the wikipedia standard is for "Czech" versus "Austrian" or "Bohemian" in this situation, but I don't think any serious source would include the "American", even though he did live there for quite some time at the end of his life. Also, the phrasing was "an Czech-American chess player" which suggests whoever changed it is less than meticulous. So I changed it. 83.70.226.235 ( talk) 12:24, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
His birthplace and jewish childhood in the Czech city of Prague is by no means unimportant. That his chess achievements started in Vienna is unimportant. His chess career was as a Czech player representing Austria/Hungary. Austria is not always the most accurate description for a person coming from a multi-national empire. -- Posp68 ( talk) 14:07, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
Does anyone know what this means. 'From the 1870s onwards, commentators have debated whether Steinitz was effectively the champion earlier' The Gaon ( talk) 08:26, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
How about replacing the main image with this one? It appears that the one that is used is a drawing based on this photo. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 15:56, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
I've never heard of this guy. Is Bill Hartston (The well known English chess author) intended? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.254.58.72 ( talk) 18:38, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
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Steinitz won every serious match he played from 1862 until 1892, sometimes by wide margins. What does serious match means??? This needs further elaboration in the article. I known some matches that he lost in that period. Was he playing drunk, on drugs, was he losing on purpose...? 213.149.62.70 ( talk) 01:03, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
Per Edward Winter, C.N. 9200 (reporting a communication by Thomas Niessen), it appears that Steinitz' birth name was actually Wolf Steinitz. This is in the Russian Wikipedia version of this article, but not in ours. Double sharp ( talk) 05:11, 25 December 2021 (UTC)