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First thing's first, the sources seem reasonable. The Starr source is probably the worst, but, as long as you're careful with any surprising claims, it should be OK.
Funnily enough, the Starr book is very scholarly; from its use of referencing and detail, I am confident that it could have been published by an academic press rather than the rather specialist Teitan Press. It might be of note here that the author, Martin P. Starr, has recently co-edited a volume on Crowley for
Oxford University Press with Henrik Bogdan.
Midnightblueowl (
talk)
11:06, 11 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Perhaps just mention that the Starr book doesn't provide any sourcing info for the Smith image in the rationale, and that'll be fine. It'd be a shame to lose the Wolfe image; try contacting the uploader.
Rodneyorpheus (
talk·contribs) may be able to help; he tracked down some sourcing for Crowley images.
J Milburn (
talk)
15:35, 15 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Okay
J, I've heard nothing from Rodneyorpheus yet – I don't think that he has been active on Wikipedia for a while. That being the case, I think that I should removed the Jane Wolfe image from the page (it can always be re-added at a later date). Does that sound okay to you ?
Midnightblueowl (
talk)
12:37, 18 December 2013 (UTC)reply
That seems reasonable; hopefully the issue can be resolved. We have less problematic images of
John Carradine, if you'd prefer. I'll take another look through the article soon, but I suspect this is ready for GA status.
J Milburn (
talk)
15:05, 18 December 2013 (UTC)reply
I don't think that we can really use an image of Carradine; he's very peripheral to Smith's life, really. Hence he only gets a passing mention in the article. I shall remove the Jane Wolfe image.
Midnightblueowl (
talk)
19:50, 18 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Onto the prose:
Is Regina Kahl notable? Don't be scared of redlinks.
"They founded an incorporated Church of Thelema which gave weekly public performances of the Gnostic Mass from their home in Hollywood, and seeking to revive the inactive North American OTO, in 1935 Smith founded the OTO Agape Lodge." Difficult to follow
The early life all feels a bit sensationalist, especially considering its cited to Starr's book from an esoteric press, rather than a more academic work. "illicit liason", "physically abused", "rescued"... I also wonder whether we have any more academic sources which even mention the affair?
I will vouch for the scholarly quality of Starr's book (it's not at all like most books produced through esoteric presses). Any sensationalism is more to do with my use of prose rather than his, I'm afraid. I've made some alterations there myself, replacing "illicit liason" with "illigitemate child" and "rescued" with "removed from".
Midnightblueowl (
talk)
19:26, 11 December 2013 (UTC)reply
"resigned from the OTO lodge so as to prevent their problems affecting the group. Their resignations were rejected" I'm not certain about this, but if the resignations were rejected, they didn't actually resign?
Just so I'm clear- White designed the house in Vancouver which became the "Vancouver lodge", then became a key member, to the extent that it became moribund upon his death?
I think that he might have been a member of the Vancouver-based British Columbia Lodge No. 1 prior to designing the house. But I'm not entirely sure about that. I should make it clear that the lodge itself is not a physical building; as in Freemasonry, the lodge is a localised branch of the order.
Midnightblueowl (
talk)
21:11, 11 December 2013 (UTC)reply
"was unnerved by his paedophilic comments" This is definitely the kind of comment that requires qualification
Following the Thelemic command of "Do What Thou Wilt", Russell embraced his sexuality, which was largely aimed at children. Or so Smith claimed, anyway. I shall change the prose to reflect that this was a claim on Smith's behalf.
Midnightblueowl (
talk)
21:11, 11 December 2013 (UTC)reply
"with auto-suggestion to found" What's an auto-suggestion? Is it what is linked to? Is the fact that it was an auto-suggestion important?
I'm worried about all the sexual details; again, I am inclined to think that these sort of claims should be qualified.
Well, they are referenced to Starr's book, and his is a very scholarly work. Remember that Thelema as a religion always encourages its followers to be very open about their sexuality, and Smith (like Crowley) wrote all about his sexual encounters in his magical diaries, which Starr consulted during his research. It's not for naught that the FBI file on the Thelemite community in the US characterised it as a "probable love cult" !
Midnightblueowl (
talk)
21:11, 11 December 2013 (UTC)reply
I'm struck by continual references to ranks and such within Thelema; this article should be written for a general audience, and a general audience isn't familiar with the Thelemite hierarchy!
"Crowley, Germer, and Schneider began spreading lies about Smith, including that he was responsible for raping initiates, claims that were denied by many Lodge members" Another massive claim- do you have any other sources?
"which depressed him" I'm not sure about depressed- it's a little medical
Fair point. From Starr's descriptions of Smith's experiences at this time, it certainly sounds a lot like he was suffering from the horrors of clinical depression, but he was never diagnosed as such and so we can't state that here. I've replaced with "greatly upset".
Midnightblueowl (
talk)
21:42, 11 December 2013 (UTC)reply
"his own house for himself and his family, which he named "Hoc Id Est."" Who's his family by this point? Also, punctuation outside quotes?
This is very strong- my only major worry comes from the fact that there are some pretty sensational claims sourced to a not-completely-academic work.
J Milburn (
talk)
21:04, 10 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Second read-through
Just a few more comments:
"The Agape Lodge and North American OTO became largely moribund after Smith's death, but the movement was revived by McMurtry in the 1960s. Although not widely known among the esoteric community during his lifetime, Smith was the subject of a 2003 biography by Martin P. Starr." This mini "legacy" section doesn't seem to be in the main article. It may be worth moving it wholesale to a section of its own and padding it with any other information you have.
I've got no problem with that, but I don't think it particularly necessary. As far as I'm aware, he went under that name for only a very short period of time. Your call, I guess.
Midnightblueowl (
talk)
18:18, 19 December 2013 (UTC)reply
"In September 1944 Smith went on a second magical retirement" Do you mean retreat? I've never heard the phrase "magical retirement".
It certainly seems like a retreat, but Starr's work uses the term "magical retirement", which I believe to be the precise terminology used in Thelema. That being the case, I'd recommend that we keep it.
Midnightblueowl (
talk)
18:44, 19 December 2013 (UTC)reply
"During the retreat he learned that Kahl, his former lover, had died, which greatly upset him." Unless I'm mistaken, you haven't mentioned yet that Smith and Kahl were lovers.
Looking very strong; I do think it'll be ready for GA status very soon. After that, perhaps try to find someone to smooth out the prose a little further and you'll be ready for FAC (though be ready to defend the reliability of the Starr book).
J Milburn (
talk)
20:17, 18 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Ok, I'm now happy that this is ready for GA status. A bit more work is required before FAC; I'd work to define/link any jargon, and a fresh pair of eyes to give a thorough copyedit would be good. I know you're already looking into a legacy section, which would be an excellent addition. In any case, great work so far, and I do hope to see this at FAC in the future!
J Milburn (
talk)
12:09, 21 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Date discrepancy
Can anyone tell me why the date of Smith's death stated in the infobox at the top of the article (4 march 1957) is in conflict with both the one provided in the opening line of the article and in the referenced final paragraph as well (27 April 1957)? Quite mysteriously, if you crack open the article's edit page in an attempt to correct the apparently erroneous(?) one located in the infobox, it already appears to be listed as 27 April 1957, even though it displays as 4 March 1957 back in the article itself. How odd.
70.48.216.22 (
talk)
07:13, 12 January 2014 (UTC)reply