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Mention and link to BiglyBT
BiglyBT is the continuation of the Vuze/Azureus open source project first created in 2003, and is being actively developed by the original coders.
Bubbletruble (
talk)
20:45, 7 January 2020 (UTC)reply
Yes, you are being overly suspicious. This is nothing to do with any promotion campaigns, this is an effort to document the reality which you’re actively disrupting.
Andrej Shadura (
talk)
11:58, 16 January 2020 (UTC)reply
To add to this, my question is whether or not this should be it's own article...or if we should just update the Vuze article with BiglyBT? It's a bit of an odd scenario, as the fundamentals around mainstream (because the 'fundamentals' technically have been around for 60+ years) coding have significantly changed since Azureus launched and even since it rebranded as Vuze. Realistically, Vuze is a fork of Azureus in the same way that BiglyBT is a fork of Vuze...yet Azureus redirects to Vuze. [1] Should the page be updated as BiglyBT, with Vuze being a redirect? Or should in it's own page like in the every body wiki? Thoughts?
EarthBoundX5 (
talk)
02:27, 14 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Expanding the "hiatus" section
After trying and failing to write a full article, as suggested by
User:1292simonhere and by
User:Newslingerhere, I’m going to expand the current Development hiatus section with more details about the infamous continuation of the project. Here’s a draft of it, please comment and help improve it.
Development hiatus and fork
The pace of development slowed in early 2017.[2] As of February 2020, the latest entry in the development blog was dated April 2017[3] and the latest code change was dated February 2018.[4] The two main developers left the project and focused their efforts on a
fork called BiglyBT[5][6]. In the fork, the developers removed support for Vuze’s premium products and proprietary features[7][8], namely
DVD burning capabilities[9], gaming promotions, sponsored offers and advertisement. In an interview with the
Free Software Foundation, the project claimed[7] to have changed the license from
GPL 2 or later to GPL 3, but as of April 2020 the license statement in the Git repository remains GPL 2 or later.[10]
^"BiglyBT". Chip (in German). Die Entwickler der Software BiglyBT wollen das Vuze/Azureus-Projekt fortsetzen. Falls Sie Nutzer von Vuze/Azureus sind, können Sie die vorhandenen Einstellungen, Downloads und Plug-ins direkt in BiglyBT übernehmen. So ersparen Sie sich eine Neu-Konfiguration und können das Torrent-Netzwerk sofort nutzen.
^Ernesto Van der Sar (2020-04-05).
"uTorrent is the Most Used BitTorrent Client By Far". TorrentFreak. The list is further completed by qBitTorrent, Deluge, Free Download Manager (FDM), and BiglyBT. The latter is operated by former developers of Vuze, which was the second most-used torrent client ten years ago, but is no longer actively developed.
^Ernesto Van der Sar (2020-10-11).
"BiglyBT is the First Torrent Client to Support the BitTorrent V2 Spec". TorrentFreak. BiglyBT is the first torrent client to add full support for the BitTorrent v2 specification, including hybrid torrents. The client is far ahead of the curve as the first torrent site has yet to adopt the new specification.
And please note that I am not an administrator, so I do not push my own agenda with removals of
BiglyBT. It is all done in correspondence with the community and in accordance with the notability guidelines. That seems already to be a major stumbling block for your campaign. The Bannertalk17:03, 7 September 2020 (UTC)reply
I'm afraid to disappoint you, but there's no campaign anywhere except maybe your imagination, you're fighting with windmills here. I'm not furious, and I'm doing this because that's the right thing to do. As I mentioned in the archived thread, BiglyBT is the same project as Vuze, similarly as Vuze is the same as Azureus, with the same people working on it. It obviously belongs in this article: Vuze as such no longer exists really.
Andrej Shadura (
talk)
12:53, 8 September 2020 (UTC)reply
BiglyBT is
the 10th most used BitTorrent client in 2020 and is frequently mentioned in reliable sources (in the rare case that any specific BT clients are mentioned at all). Vuze on the other hand is very rarely mentioned in the media since the development stopped. The most recent reference on the Vuze page is from 2017. As such I would say that Vuze no longer meets the criteria for notability.
I propose that the content of this article should be moved to the "History" section on a newly created BiglyBT article (Although the list of features and the weird "only shipped by" comment should definitely be removed from
Draft:BiglyBT before the article is created).
Disclosure: I am in no way affiliated with Bigly Software or any of the people involved, nor have I seen any marketing material from them, just a random user who went to the Comparison of Clients page while considering switching from
qBittorrent and was surprised that BiglyBT wasn't there.
Zarano (
talk)
16:12, 28 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Vuze isn't listed at all and has no references newer than 2017. So why does Vuze meet the criteria for notability? What does Vuze's article have that Bigly's doesn't?
Zarano (
talk) 11:16, 30 December 2020 (UTC
As notability is not temporary, it is not unlikely that Free Download Manager and BitLord were more important in the past. At the same time it is very possible that nobody was interest to write an article about MediaGet. BitSpirit was deleted as non-notable. The Bannertalk18:59, 26 March 2021 (UTC)reply
May 2024
I'm going to try and start this again. @
The Banner, I also agree that information about this should be added. In fact, I think that the sources above even meet significant coverage; I'm counting at least 5 articles that go in depth. Sure it could use some better writing and some of the details are cruft, but as a matter of principle we definitely should include this. There can be a very simple reason that Andrej tried to add this other than bad-faith imaginations: he uses it and is a fanboy, duh.
Aaron Liu (
talk)
12:53, 10 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Where the heck did I say package?TL;DR I believe that the amount of coverage BiglyBT has warrants a paragraph here, and perhaps even an article.
Aaron Liu (
talk)
17:00, 10 May 2024 (UTC)reply
BiglyBT is not a Vuze project, so it does not belong here. Write it as a draft for a new article. My advice is to click on the link
BiglyBT and see how much the article is protected due to spamming and disruptive editing. The Bannertalk00:02, 13 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Nobody said that you can't include notable forks under their parent articles. Just look at
Terraform (software). Notability and worthiness can change, and the events in 2020 definitely make this worthy enough of inclusion if it wasn't already; which is why I tried to discuss here first.
Aaron Liu (
talk)
00:16, 13 May 2024 (UTC)reply
My advice is that you write a a draft and submit that for inclusion. The history of BiglyBT & Wikipedia is rough and complicated enough that it is better to follow the high road. The Bannertalk15:46, 13 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I do not want this to be a separate article, as I don't think it has sufficient notability to warrant an independent article. But there is enough weight for coverage in this article, and the only reasons I see against including this are your vehement opposition plus past proponents not knowing how to argue. resulting in sanctions on the latter for the good reason of being unproductive. So, could you tell me why you're that opposed to including BiglyBT in this article?
Aaron Liu (
talk)
16:39, 13 May 2024 (UTC)reply
There is no guideline that states that articles must only contain information on the subject itself, and I see no reason to argue for that. Also, here's an example that has been reviewed:
OpenOffice.org was
reviewed at FAC. Despite its entire section dedicated to forks, no complaints were made because of that; instead, it was declined due to awkward prose (and a place where citations weren't bundled). So, yes, there is precedent to include notable forks. Not to mention that BiglyBT is arguably an Azureus project as its creators were active developers of the latter.I sincerely doubt that other editors would agree with you. As we seem to have reached an irreconcilable point, I have listed this at
WP:3O. The diff I intend to introduce is
Special:Diff/1223559975.
Aaron Liu (
talk)
19:49, 13 May 2024 (UTC)reply
3O Response:The Banner, I think you're having a knee-jerk reaction to the information
Aaron Liu is trying to include because of the history of spammers associated with it. What is relevant for inclusion in an article is based primarily on what reliable sources have to say about it. Aaron Liu has presented several independent sources that cover Vuze and BiglyBT in the same breath.
Snowmanonahoe (
talk·contribs·typos)
20:19, 13 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I advised mr. Liu to write a draft for a separate article about BiglyBT. He refused that, stating that the package is not notable enough for an own article. If it is not notable, why should you add the info to another article as it is still not notable? The Bannertalk21:01, 13 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Are there any more sources that states it use by the public, more recent than 2020? I would love to see if it garners more use than the 0.3% in the Torrentfreak list. The Bannertalk21:49, 13 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I can't find any sources newer than TorrentFreak's on torrent client market share, but 0.3% is already pretty big and notability isn't temporary anyway. Something of note is that Vuze isn't even reported by their <0.1% mentions.
Aaron Liu (
talk)
23:29, 13 May 2024 (UTC)reply
True, notability is not temporary. And please note that BiglyBT was removed in the past as being not notable, despite the 0.3 percent market share. The Bannertalk10:10, 14 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Well, nobody else has ever removed it other than you.
Aaron Liu (
talk) 11:38, 14 May 2024 (UTC) Clarification: by removed, I mean remove from this article. My nature is to associate "removal" with "take away" instead of any deletion as a whole, which includes article deletion.
Aaron Liu (
talk)
18:03, 14 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I believe the history of sanctions is due to previous proponents not discussing, your opposition, and less notability back in 2017.You also haven't came up with more unaddressed arguments in opposition since 3O, so I think this is a rough consensus.
Aaron Liu (
talk)
14:35, 14 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I call it spamming of a non-notable package with very limited usage on top of that. You offered no new sources to back up the notability. The Bannertalk14:58, 14 May 2024 (UTC)reply
0.3% is not "very limited usage". It's a lot. Even if you somehow manage to ignore the fact that it's the tenth most popular, 0.1% market share [...] translates to roughly 25,000 logged connections. That is not "very limited usage at all".You have not demonstrated why 9 reliable sources that cover BiglyBT is not enough for inclusion, not to mention that the Neowin one was new.
Aaron Liu (
talk)
15:13, 14 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Okay, it's nice that we can progress in this discussion.While it would have more of a claim to inclusion if it were a biggest percentage, first and foremost, I do not see how our own interpretation of their market share has any bearing on Wikipedia guidelines and how we have 9 great sources that support inclusion and establish weight.
Aaron Liu (
talk)
21:04, 14 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Because there isn't enough material for a standalone article, 4 of these cover the same event, and 1 only mentions it in 2 sentences, but due weight isn't necessarily precluded by non-notability, and I believe that these sources establish due weight.About the percentage, maybe the problem is that I'm a person who likes to think "this can save $1 billion from the US debt" instead of "this only saves less than 0.1% from the US debt".
Aaron Liu (
talk)
21:12, 14 May 2024 (UTC)reply
That's reversing the burden of proof. As
WP:ONUS says, "The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content."
MrOllie (
talk)
20:50, 14 May 2024 (UTC)reply
This is different from ONUS, as we've already provided our proof, yet there has been no argument made against it save "they got 10th most used with only 0.3%", which doesn't seem very compelling, policy-based or principle-related.
Aaron Liu (
talk)
21:14, 14 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Consensus is based on arguments made and to the extent Wikipedia policies and guidelines align with them, and the market share of the client has nothing to do with Wikipedia policy.
Snowmanonahoe (
talk·contribs·typos)
21:31, 14 May 2024 (UTC)reply
That matters for formally closed processes like AFDs and RFCs, but you will find that in other sorts of discussions you can't just tell someone you think that their argument is bad and then claim consensus.
MrOllie (
talk)
21:38, 14 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Okay, I expected that ONUS was a synonym for BURDEN. Apparently that's not the case. Thanks. I believe that the modern, covered continuation driven by two original developers of this dead project really warrants inclusion. This is a similar situation to the relationship between OOo and LibreOffice, and IMO not including it would be doing knowledge a great disservice. Also, what do you think about being the first client to implement BitTorrentv2?
Aaron Liu (
talk)
22:33, 14 May 2024 (UTC)reply
And what are your arguments against the fact that it is the current, working continuation, and how Vuze doesn't even appear in the usage ranking anymore?
Aaron Liu (
talk)
00:54, 19 May 2024 (UTC)reply
My own opinion is that a mention of a sentence or two might be warranted, but what is presently in the article drifts off topic. This is the article about Vuze, not 'Vuze and its forks'. Any discussion should be tightly limited to how the fork relates to its parent. The current version of the article goes beyond that.
MrOllie (
talk)
02:35, 22 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Pretty much every piece of notable software with significant forks has a section about the fork. For example
Debian#Forks and derivatives (a good, peer-reviewed article!) and
OpenOffice.org#Forks and derivative software. Per
Wikipedia:Merging#Reasons for merging, If a page is very short (consisting of perhaps only one or two sentences) and is, in your opinion as editor, unlikely to be expanded within a "reasonable" (unspecified) amount of time, it often makes sense to merge it into a page on a broader topic. For example, parents or children of a celebrity who themselves are otherwise unremarkable are generally covered in a section of the article on the celebrity. Therefore, I feel like notable/significant forks are related enough to the topic here.
Aaron Liu (
talk)
11:40, 22 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Those are examples where the forks and derivatives are essential for understanding the impact of the original project. That is not the case here.
MrOllie (
talk)
12:05, 22 May 2024 (UTC)reply
You're comparing major projects which spawned a whole ecosystem of forks and derivatives, some of which (like LibreOffice) have more active users than all the bittorrent clients put together - with a project that has one fork that has a tiny market share.
MrOllie (
talk)
13:15, 22 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I am not so much stonewalling, as you notice it is still in the article. But I challenge the usefulness of this addition. Fact is that there is no article BiglyBT to prove its notability beyond doubt. A prior redirect to a section is also removed. Plus you have no sources beyond 2020, when a source stated that 99,7% of BitTorrent users was using another program proving that it is limited in use. The Bannertalk15:37, 22 May 2024 (UTC)reply
A prior redirect to a section [was] also removed because you removed the section, duh. How does the fact that it was from 2020 have any bearing on all of this? If you really want it,
here's coverage from late 2021, but I think our current coverage is already enough. You can't just zoom in on everything a source does not say. The fact is that torrent clients' competition are niche (save muTorrent), and you should not ignore that this is top-ten, has 75k connections, and was the first client to implement v2. You could be making the same argument for every competitor except muTorrent. Also, not reverting does not preclude stonewalling.
Aaron Liu (
talk)
15:49, 22 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Are there any objections to redirecting
BiglyBT to this page? I haven't been following this discussion, but glancing over it I get the impression that 2 users support inclusion of BiglyBT here, and two are against? It's certainly not notable enough to warrant a standalone article, but a redirect is appropriate as long as it's at least mentioned here. OhNoitsJamieTalk20:57, 14 May 2024 (UTC)reply
So TL;DR: the existence of the redirect hinges on whether BiglyBT material is accepted into this article. Back then, 4 of the sources we have here did not exist.
Aaron Liu (
talk)
22:25, 14 May 2024 (UTC)reply
It has more to do with the link being salted due to multiple recreations, so a redirect (or article) is not possible at this moment. The Bannertalk22:33, 14 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I may have forgotten to disclose that, but I contacted Jamie's talk page to have it unsalted before Ollie commented, as they is the last person to salt the page.
Aaron Liu (
talk)
22:35, 14 May 2024 (UTC)reply
This Wiki lists the last version of Vuze as 5.7.6.0. I was just on the Vuze Page, and downloaded the installer. It is for 5.7.7.0, no idea of a Date of release. This suggests that Vuze is not as In-Active as it has been for around 5 years. Also it now has 2 levels, Free, and Paid with some unlocked features.
As to BiglyBT, it deserves it's own page with info on the Vuze page mentioning it is a Fork. While it says earlier in this Talk "Vuze is a fork of Azureus", this is not entirely true. A Fork is a Split from the original code. Vuze is the Re-Branding of Azureus. So redirecting Azureus to Vuse is logical. And unlike the recently updated Vuze, BiglyBT is Free, no hidden features. Though they do periodically have a popup for Optional Donations.
NaPurHab (
talk)
01:23, 15 September 2022 (UTC)reply