This article is within the scope of WikiProject Linguistics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
linguistics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LinguisticsWikipedia:WikiProject LinguisticsTemplate:WikiProject LinguisticsLinguistics articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject English Language, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to the
English language on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.English LanguageWikipedia:WikiProject English LanguageTemplate:WikiProject English LanguageEnglish Language articles
What's the tongue groove? The only thing I could imagine was
rolling the tongue. I think this topic deserves an article because it's mentioned in many places, but isn't really a clear term — at least not clearer than tongue blade.
Wisapi (
talk)
21:03, 9 January 2010 (UTC)reply
I have never heard a South African substitute "r" and "d" sounds. Seems like this might be a typo and they intended for the last letter of the word to carry the sound.
Different complaint, but still applicable, another area of Wikipedia identifies this pronunciation as being of a specific urban dialect:
Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Phonetics/Archive_2#Proposed_style_guidelines. Even if it is the correct pronunciation, it does not appear to be representative of the way most people speak in South Africa.
How do you get from the representation that r is pronounced like d?
The link you've provided is an archived discussion, not really "another area of Wikipedia." The examples there are for figuring out how information is to be presented. You don't really think there's a language called "Examplese" do you? Either way, though, the SAE entry is uncited so we can add a fact tag if you'd like and remove it if no one can provide a source after a reasonable period of time. —
Ƶ§œš¹[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]04:33, 4 October 2010 (UTC)reply
Comparison between words in English and Dutch shows quite obviously that many cognate words
exist that(!) in English start with either voiced or voiceless fricative "th" and in Dutch start with "d". This Dutch "d" is actually pronounced very close to or even as the voiced dental fricative.
This feature even extends through the Dutch-German dialect continuum well into the area of the German language. Actually at least originally, all along the lower German North Sea shore this pronunciation of "d" as a voiced dental fricative must have been practically the standard pronunciation.
Amand Keultjes (
talk)
22:39, 7 October 2016 (UTC)reply
In
Old High German, the original Germanic *þ was first voiced to /ð/ and eventually became a stop /d/. This /d/ remained distinct from Germanic *d in
Upper German and some dialects of
Central German because these had shifted *d to /t/. (Hence, English day, thorn vs. German Tag, Dorn.) In the more northern dialects of Central German, both sounds were merged into one phoneme /d/, and the same then also happened -- slightly later -- in
Old Dutch and
Old Saxon. The question whether this merged phoneme of the northern varieties was at times realised as a fricative [ð] is somewhat unrelated, but you would seem to be right that this was the case, though probably only in intervocalic position, not word-initially. (One reason to assume is the frequent elision of intervocalic /d/ in these varieties.) However, I'm not sure whether it was necessarily predominant throughout the
North European Plain. It could have been common in some areas but not in others. At any rate, this [ð], if it indeed existed, was only an
allophone of /d/, not a
phoneme in its own right. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
2.207.102.144 (
talk •
contribs)
21:16, 14 March 2019 (UTC)reply
English occurrences....
In the "occurrences" sections, it lists a couple dialects (RP & Western American) as having this sound, but as far as I know just about every dialect of English pronounces words like "this" and "father" with this sound....It's rather universal - certainly in Eastern American English, non-RP British dialects, Aus and NZ English, etc. So I'd recommend getting rid of those dialects and just having it listed as an across the board English usage. -
2003:CA:870C:E9F:9DEE:D792:643D:BE7B (
talk)
21:58, 5 June 2023 (UTC)reply
If I understand right, you're saying there are a lot of dialects that use a different sound so the article only lists ones where it's definitely [ð], right? I had the same question as the anonymous user and came here to ask about it, so could we add a note to clarify? Maybe something like:
While [ð] is found most English dialects, there are
numerous exceptions, so the dialects presented here are some significant ones that use [ð] without exception.
Otherwise, if I get what you're saying, to be more inclusive, we'd have to say stuff like
Canadian English except Newfoundland English; British English except Cockney, ...; General American except most AAVE, some NYC, Chicago, Boston, ...