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Varma history texts were removed along with the other information. The history information seemed to be correct and references were credible to support it. Could User:Praxidicae or somebody elaborate why the revert of the whole page to a very old version is necessary as a lot of very useful work is then lost? If no reasonable answer is received, it would be good to bring back at least some of the reverted texts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Huopa ( talk • contribs) 08:45, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
The article contained warnings about a) commercial content b) too many primary sources and c) not reliable sources. The note was added 2 years ago. I checked the status back then there were 25 references in the article, 12 of them from Varma itself. There were also 3 non-media sources: WWF, Kasvuryhmä and Kasvu Open and Projektiuutiset media, which is not among the most-known Finnish medias. At the moment there are 31 refs and only 8 of them are from Varma. I've removed WWF and the other sites I just mentioned. I also removed a prize given in 2017 for Varma's pension specialist Outi Viljanen who was voted the best customer service agent in Finland in the Customer's Voice survey. The tone of the article tries to be as neutral as possible but if there are words or phrases that sound too commercial, please comment here and I try to learn my lesson. Cheers! Jjanhone ( talk) 16:41, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest was declined. |
Jjanhone ( talk) 15:54, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
I think the statistics updates you made can be added back without issue. I think the section you added ("The roots of Varma") is problematic because your source is a primary source, not a secondary source, and relative to the entire article it may also be a neutral point of view issue. Please also read WP:PRIMARY, particularly
Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them. I am troubled that GSS did not simply remove the portions that were likely at issue instead of just reverting your edits completely. Per the prior discussion you linked above:In my opinion, it's best to treat the "paid" angle as irrelevant and focus on the edits: if someone repeatedly violates WP:NPOV after warnings, they may be blocked for disruption related to the POV-pushing, without regard to their disclosed paid status.– Xeno, also what Swarm said at that prior discussion is still relevant here. GSS's edit summary pointed to theaddition of primary sources(though they seem to believe primary sources are completely disallowed, which is not the case),lack of inline citationswhich is simply false looking at the material they reverted that you added, andadvertisingwhich is pretty vague but I suspect is referring to "The roots of Varma" section you added. They then implore you to use talk page requests per WP:COIEDIT, which COIEDIT does not require, it simply encourages.
— [[User: Locke Cole 17:26, 16 March 2021 (UTC)]]
Yesterday I was adding 8 new sources to this article after which there were 39 refs in use. 7 of them were Varma's own sources. Then my edits were reverted and now there's only 31 refs in use, 8 of them being Varma's own sources. So the warning makes no sense for me: looks like I was adding more secondary sources and thus improving the article. And after the revert the article contains now too many primary sources? Jjanhone ( talk) 06:09, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
I've reverted the recent rewrite, which I understand is COI/paid editing. See WP:NOPAY: "you are strongly discouraged from editing affected articles directly". In particular, it isn't clear what kind of source this is. It was used to support the section "The roots of Varma".
Jjanhone, the recommendation is for COI/paid editors to use {{ request edit}}. I have to wonder whether the level of detail you're adding is meaningful to readers of the English Wikipedia. SarahSV (talk) 21:28, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
Added an RE for the old discussion that has not proceeded. Jjanhone ( talk) 09:59, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest was declined. See below |
So I'm now starting a discussion whether it is relevant to talk about the roots of a company that was born by combining parts of two companies. Here is what I had written about that. Jjanhone ( talk) 07:23, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
"The roots of Varma Varma's history dates back to 1919, when the Reinsurance Company Varma was founded ref TE20210225 into a Nordic-style joint venture of life insurance companies offering reinsurance and high-risk life insurance. Its owners, Kaleva, Salama and Suomi, wanted to work together to cope with the exceptional circumstances that tested their existence - an unprecedented level of inflation questioning savings-based life insurance. Varma's ownership was later expanded by new life insurance companies. Ref Hannikainen In 1926, Varma began group pension insurance for white-collar employees while wage labour became more common in Finland. In 1947, Eläke-Varma (Pension-Varma) was founded, focusing on pension insurances. In the 1950s, Eläke-Varma's operations expanded as wage labour increased and companies’ social responsibility for their employees became part of the social debate. There was a gradual shift from voluntary insurance to employment pension security. In 1957, the national pension reform was introduced, ending up being a flat-rate pension scheme.Ref Hannikainen In 1962 the private-sector employees’ pensions acts came into force.ref Hannikainen Statutory earnings-related pension cover was provided at that time by nine companies.TE20210225 The largest employment pension companies were Ilmarinen and Eläke-Varma. Varma differed from other companies in that it did not have a branch network, with the exception of the Helsinki head office. Pension Varma's customers were typically pension insurers of large manufacturing companies that were often closely linked to Yhdyspankki (the Union Bank of Finland). In 1965, four specialist insurance companies serving large-scale industry merged due to their common customer base Teollisuusvakuutus (Industrial Insurance Company Ltd), which became a close partner for Eläke-Varma.Ref Hannikainen In 1972, the operations of the non-life insurance company Fennia began to be reorganized and the pension insurance portfolio of its subsidiary Patria was transferred to Eläke-Varma. With the change, Eläke-Varma's distribution network improved, as Fennia's branches across the country also began to serve Eläke-Varma's customers. Eläke-Varma, Teollisuusvakuutus and Fennia began to form a group of insurance companies, although they all operated independently.Ref Hannikainen In 1983, the non-life insurance company Sampo established a limited company Eläke-Sampo (Pension-Sampo), to which Kalervo's employment pension insurance was transferred in 1985. Nova, a life insurance company founded by Eläke-Varma, together with Teollisuusvakuutus and Yrittäjäin Fennia, started operations in 1987. ref Hannikainen Until the mid-1980s, pension insurers were an integral part of Finnish industrial, employment and social policy. Their aim was to promote job creation, support the activities of export companies and facilitate structural change, as the financial sustainability of the pension system relied heavily on successful companies. Pension companies were involved in construction projects and invested in forests and power plants and financed corporate investments by re-lending pension assets. In the late 1980s, re-lending began to fade rapidly as companies gained access to other financing channels. As a result, Varma and other pension insurers began to seek income from investment activities and their role in society became more indirect, they began to exercise ownership in investment targets. Pension insurers began to compete for the best investment returns, which are now a key part of the sustainability of the entire pension system.Ref TE20210225 In the late 1980s, Yhdyspankki led the Finanssilaitos conglomerate, which acquired a significant stake in Yhdyspankki and Sampo. Eläke-Varma was also involved in the group. As the financial institution ran into difficulties, insurance companies began to be extensively reorganized, which eventually led to the merger of Eläke-Varma and Eläke-Sampo. In 1993, Eläke-Varma became one of the owners of Eläke-Sampo. The independent status of employment pension companies was clarified in the Act on Employment Pension Companies, which entered into force in 1997.ref Hannikainen After many stages, Eläke-Varma and Eläke-Sampo became mutual companies Varma-Sampo and Eläke-Fennia, which both started their operations in July 1998.ref Hannikainen"
"The roots of Varma Varma's history dates back to 1919, when the Reinsurance Company Varma was founded ref TE20210225 offering reinsurance and high-risk life insurance. It had three owners first, Kaleva, Salama and Suomi, but the ownership was later expanded by new life insurance companies. Ref Hannikainen In 1926, Varma began group pension insurance for white-collar employees. In 1947, Eläke-Varma (Pension-Varma) was founded, focusing on pension insurances.Ref Hannikainen In 1962 the largest employment pension companies in Finland were Ilmarinen and Eläke-Varma. Varma had not have a branch network, only the Helsinki head office. Pension Varma's customers were typically pension insurers of large manufacturing companies.Ref Hannikainen In 1972, the operations of the non-life insurance company Fennia began to be reorganized and the pension insurance portfolio of its subsidiary Patria was transferred to Eläke-Varma. With the change, Eläke-Varma's distribution network improved, as Fennia's branches across the country also began to serve Eläke-Varma's customers. Eläke-Varma, Teollisuusvakuutus and Fennia began to form a group of insurance companies, although they all operated independently.Ref Hannikainen In 1983, the non-life insurance company Sampo established a limited company Eläke-Sampo (Pension-Sampo). Nova, a life insurance company founded by Eläke-Varma, together with Teollisuusvakuutus and Yrittäjäin Fennia, started operations in 1987. ref Hannikainen Until the mid-1980s, pension insurers were an integral part of Finnish industrial, employment and social policy. Their aim was to promote job creation, support the activities of export companies and facilitate structural change, as the financial sustainability of the pension system relied heavily on successful companies. Pension companies were involved in construction projects. In the late 1980s, re-lending began to fade rapidly. As a result, Varma and other pension insurers began to seek income from investment activities. Pension insurers began to compete for the best investment returns.Ref TE20210225 In the late 1980s, Yhdyspankki led the Finanssilaitos conglomerate, which acquired a significant stake in Yhdyspankki and Sampo. Eläke-Varma was also involved in the group. As the financial institution ran into difficulties, insurance companies began to be extensively reorganized. In 1993, Eläke-Varma became one of the owners of Eläke-Sampo.ref Hannikainen After many stages, Eläke-Varma and Eläke-Sampo became mutual companies Varma-Sampo and Eläke-Fennia, which both started their operations in July 1998.ref Hannikainen"
"The roots of Varma Varma's history dates back to 1919, when the Reinsurance Company Varma was founded ref TE20210225 In 1926, Varma began group pension insurance for white-collar employees. In 1947, Eläke-Varma (Pension-Varma) was founded, focusing on pension insurances.Ref Hannikainen In 1962 the largest employment pension companies in Finland were Ilmarinen and Eläke-Varma. Varma had not a branch network, only the Helsinki head office. Pension Varma's customers were typically pension insurers of large manufacturing companies.Ref Hannikainen In 1972, the operations of the non-life insurance company Fennia's subsidiary Patria was transferred to Eläke-Varma. With the change, Eläke-Varma's distribution network improved, as Fennia's branches across the country also began to serve Eläke-Varma's customers. Eläke-Varma, Teollisuusvakuutus and Fennia began to form a group of insurance companies, although they all operated independently.Ref Hannikainen In 1983, Sampo established a limited company Eläke-Sampo (Pension-Sampo). Nova, a life insurance company founded by Eläke-Varma, together with Teollisuusvakuutus and Yrittäjäin Fennia, started operations in 1987. ref Hannikainen In the late 1980s, re-lending began to fade rapidly and Varma began to seek income from investment activities. Ref TE20210225 In the late 1980s, the Finanssilaitos conglomerate led by Yhdyspankki and which Eläke-Varma was also involved with ran into difficulties, and the participants began extensively reorganize. In 1993, Eläke-Varma became one of the owners of Eläke-Sampo.ref Hannikainen After many stages, Eläke-Varma and Eläke-Sampo became mutual companies Varma-Sampo and Eläke-Fennia, starting their operations in July 1998.ref Hannikainen"
"The roots of Varma Varma's history dates back to 1919, when the Reinsurance Company Varma was founded ref TE20210225 In 1947, Eläke-Varma (Pension-Varma) was founded.Ref Hannikainen In 1962 the largest employment pension companies in Finland were Ilmarinen and Eläke-Varma. Varma had not a branch network, only the Helsinki head office. In 1972, Fennia's subsidiary Patria was transferred to Eläke-Varma. With the change Fennia's branches across the country began to serve also Eläke-Varma's customers. Eläke-Varma, Teollisuusvakuutus and Fennia began to form a group of insurance companies, although they all operated independently.Ref Hannikainen In 1983, Sampo established a limited company Eläke-Sampo (Pension-Sampo). Nova, a life insurance company founded by Eläke-Varma, Teollisuusvakuutus and Yrittäjäin Fennia, started operations in 1987. ref Hannikainen In the late 1980s, the Finanssilaitos conglomerate led by Yhdyspankki and which Eläke-Varma was also involved with ran into difficulties, and the participants began extensively reorganize. In 1993, Eläke-Varma became one of the owners of Eläke-Sampo.ref Hannikainen After many stages, Eläke-Varma and Eläke-Sampo became mutual companies Varma-Sampo and Eläke-Fennia, starting their operations in July 1998.ref Hannikainen"
"The roots of Varma Varma's history dates back to 1919, when the Reinsurance Company Varma was founded ref TE20210225 In 1947, Eläke-Varma (Pension-Varma) was founded.Ref Hannikainen In 1983, Sampo established a limited company Eläke-Sampo (Pension-Sampo). In 1993, Eläke-Varma became one of the owners of Eläke-Sampo.ref Hannikainen After many stages, Eläke-Varma and Eläke-Sampo became mutual companies Varma-Sampo and Eläke-Fennia, starting their operations in July 1998.ref Hannikainen"
Insert references and mix well. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 09:42, 17 March 2021 (UTC)History
Varma’s history dates to 1919 with the founding of the Reinsurance Company Varma, which offered reinsurance and high-risk insurance. In 1926, the company began to offer group pension insurance for white-collar employees. Eläke-Varma ("Pension-Varma") was founded in 1947 and by 1962 was one of the largest pension insurance companies in Finland. It typically served large manufacturing companies.
In 1972, Patria, a subsidiary of the non-life insurance company Fennia was transferred [? sold?] to Eläke-Varma, and Fennia's branches began to serve Eläke-Varma's customers, improving its distribution system.
Nova, a life-insurance company, was founded in 1987 by Eläke-Varma together with two other Finnish insurance companies.
In the 1980s, re-lending began to fade rapidly [what does "fade rapidly" mean?] and pension companies such as Eläke-Varma began to make investments, including, in 1993, a stake in Eläke-Sampo ("Pension-Sampo"), a limited company founded in 1983.
Insurance companies began to be extensively reorganized [when?], and, after many intermediate steps, Eläke-Varma and Eläke-Sampo became the mutual companies Varma-Sampo and Eläke-Fennia, which both started their operations in July 1998.
History
Varma’s history dates to 1919 with the founding of the Reinsurance Company Varma, which offered reinsurance and high-risk insurance. In 1926, the company began to offer group pension insurance for white-collar employees. Eläke-Varma ("Pension-Varma") was founded in 1947 and by 1962 was one of the largest pension insurance companies in Finland. It typically served large manufacturing companies.
In 1972, Patria, a subsidiary of the non-life insurance company Fennia was transferred [? sold? merged? this is what the source says: "the pension insurance portfolio of the fifth largest employment pension company, Patria, was transferred to Eläke-Varma in conjunction with the reorganisation of Fennia Non-Life Insurance Company’s operations. Patria was owned by Fennia."] to Eläke-Varma, and Fennia's branches began to serve Eläke-Varma's customers, improving its distribution system.
Nova, a life-insurance company, was founded in 1987 by Eläke-Varma together with two other Finnish insurance companies.
In the 1980s, re-lending began to fade rapidly [what does "fade rapidly" mean? A: it means that it suddenly nearly stopped] and pension companies such as Eläke-Varma began to make investments, including, in 1993, a stake in Eläke-Sampo ("Pension-Sampo"), a limited company founded in 1983 [this is too brave I think. It started to make investments instead of just loaning money. Eläke-Sampo became part of Eläke-Varma because a big crash down that Finanssilaitos caused and which led to big rearrangements in the market. This is hard to explain as Finanssilaitos case is missing from English Wikipedia but it's a big thing].
Insurance companies began to be extensively reorganized [when? A: after the Finanssilaitos thing], and, after many intermediate steps, Eläke-Varma and Eläke-Sampo became the mutual companies Varma-Sampo and Eläke-Fennia, which both started their operations in July 1998.
"The roots of Varma Varma's history dates back to 1919, when the Reinsurance Company Varma was founded [1] into a Nordic-style joint venture of life insurance companies offering reinsurance and high-risk life insurance. Its owners, Kaleva, Salama and Suomi, wanted to work together to cope with the exceptional circumstances that tested their existence - an unprecedented level of inflation questioning savings-based life insurance. Varma's ownership was later expanded by new life insurance companies. [2] In 1926, Varma began group pension insurance for white-collar employees while wage labour became more common in Finland. In 1947, Eläke-Varma (Pension-Varma) was founded, focusing on pension insurances. In the 1950s, Eläke-Varma's operations expanded as wage labour increased and companies’ social responsibility for their employees became part of the social debate. There was a gradual shift from voluntary insurance to employment pension security. In 1957, the national pension reform was introduced, ending up being a flat-rate pension scheme. [2] In 1962 the private-sector employees’ pensions acts came into force. [2] Statutory earnings-related pension cover was provided at that time by nine companies. [1] The largest employment pension companies were Ilmarinen and Eläke-Varma. Varma differed from other companies in that it did not have a branch network, with the exception of the Helsinki head office. Pension Varma's customers were typically pension insurers of large manufacturing companies that were often closely linked to Yhdyspankki (the Union Bank of Finland). In 1965, four specialist insurance companies serving large-scale industry merged due to their common customer base Teollisuusvakuutus (Industrial Insurance Company Ltd), which became a close partner for Eläke-Varma. [2] In 1972, the operations of the non-life insurance company Fennia began to be reorganized and the pension insurance portfolio of its subsidiary Patria was transferred to Eläke-Varma. With the change, Eläke-Varma's distribution network improved, as Fennia's branches across the country also began to serve Eläke-Varma's customers. Eläke-Varma, Teollisuusvakuutus and Fennia began to form a group of insurance companies, although they all operated independently. [2] In 1983, the non-life insurance company Sampo established a limited company Eläke-Sampo (Pension-Sampo), to which Kalervo's employment pension insurance was transferred in 1985. Nova, a life insurance company founded by Eläke-Varma, together with Teollisuusvakuutus and Yrittäjäin Fennia, started operations in 1987. [2] Until the mid-1980s, pension insurers were an integral part of Finnish industrial, employment and social policy. Their aim was to promote job creation, support the activities of export companies and facilitate structural change, as the financial sustainability of the pension system relied heavily on successful companies. Pension companies were involved in construction projects and invested in forests and power plants and financed corporate investments by re-lending pension assets. In the late 1980s, re-lending began to fade rapidly as companies gained access to other financing channels. As a result, Varma and other pension insurers began to seek income from investment activities and their role in society became more indirect, they began to exercise ownership in investment targets. Pension insurers began to compete for the best investment returns, which are now a key part of the sustainability of the entire pension system. [1] In the late 1980s, Yhdyspankki led the Finanssilaitos conglomerate, which acquired a significant stake in Yhdyspankki and Sampo. Eläke-Varma was also involved in the group. As the financial institution ran into difficulties, insurance companies began to be extensively reorganized, which eventually led to the merger of Eläke-Varma and Eläke-Sampo. In 1993, Eläke-Varma became one of the owners of Eläke-Sampo. The independent status of employment pension companies was clarified in the Act on Employment Pension Companies, which entered into force in 1997. [2] After many stages, Eläke-Varma and Eläke-Sampo became mutual companies Varma-Sampo and Eläke-Fennia, which both started their operations in July 1998. [2]"
References
Starting a new chain for this. Jjanhone ( talk) 22:57, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
I've added a edit request on this page but as it hasn't progressed and I have started new chains about the a) Roots of Varma and b) 2020 figures let's continue about the other changes I did and which were reverted.
1. Update from 2019 to 2020:
In 2020, Varma paid out pensions in the amount of 6.0 billion euros to 343,000 people and made 21,100 new pension decisions. Premiums written amounted to 4.9 billion euros, and at year-end 543,003 people were insured with Varma.ref name=VarmaFS2020
2. Corrected company names:
3. Added a reason for a company name change:
4. A significant merge in 2020:
In 2020, some Finnish private pension funds merged with Varma. In total, more than 900 million euros of the assets of pension funds were transferred to Varma and the company's investment assets increased to a record high of 50.2 billion euros. The year of covid-19 made investing challenging and the return on the year was 2.8 percent.ref name = MT20210219
5. More about 2020 figures:
Varma's investment assets amounted to approximately 20.2 billion euros in 2020 and its returns exceeded 5.2 billion euros.ref name=HS20210219 Of the investment categories, the best performers were general government bonds, equity investments and real estate investments. Hedge funds were loss-making and Varma announced that it would reduce their relative share in its investment portfolio.Ref name = KL20210219
6. Additions to Social responsibility:
Varma divested its investments in coal and oil. At the end of 2020, Varma did not own shares of coal-producing mining companies, coal-based power generation companies nor oil drilling companies.ref [6] In 2021, Varma announced its goal to recycle all demolition waste generated in the renovation and construction of its properties by 2025. In 2021, it was aiming to a recycling rate of 70%.ref [7]
So what should we do with these changes? Can I add them back or is someone else willing do to that? Jjanhone ( talk) 09:25, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
According to the policy "if you place the Paid tag, you should promptly start a discussion on the article's talk page to explain what is non-neutral about the article." As a paid editor I'm not allowed to remove the tag myself, but if any volunteer editor thinks that the neutral point of view of the article is ok, they are free to remove the tag as told in the Template:Paid contributions instructions: "If you do not start this discussion, then any editor is justified in removing the tag without warning." Jjanhone ( talk) 17:25, 24 March 2021 (UTC)