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Move: Van (turkey) → Van, Turkey
common use for cities
This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. This was an old (2002) copy/paste move so the histories have been merged. violet/riga (t) 17:23, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I just googled this silliness -- and was amazed to find it (not that I believe). -- Moby 11:04, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
The whole "Van, Turkey" entry is so full of silliness that I am surprised that you were surprised. Meowy 18:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
BTW - the statue may be as real as the actual monster. I've been to Van on many occasions and have never seen such a statue! There is a statue of the monster in Gevas though. Meowy 01:04, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I've removed that photograph from the entry. As I said, I've been to Van on dozens of occasions and have never seen such a statue there. The photo remains on the entry about the monster. Meowy 21:01, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I lıved ın Van for 2 and a half years and didn't see that statue. 99.236.250.221 ( talk) 01:56, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
Awhile back a user added this to the Van (disambiguation) page, and I couldn't help but wonder, do all these cities ( Van, Mersovan, and Yerevan—come from the same word? None of these articles except Merzifon discuss the etymology of the word at all, and it would be interesting to know if the words are related. — Khoikhoi 05:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
The city's Armenian population was devastated (what is devastated, killed?) during World War I by Ottoman troops as a part of the Armenian Genocide <--- there are sources that says Van rebelled, and I provided them, and it was deleted, it even syas below Van reblled and the rmenians were taking sides with Russians). According to Turkish accounts (according to Turkish but not according to Armenian accounts?), with Russian forces (and Armenian volunteer untis, you forgot that) approaching Lake Van, the regional administrator ordered the execution of five Armenian leaders (of whom were rebel leaders, right?) and a revolt resulted in Van on April 20, 1915 against the Turks (and the Turks were killed were thjey not?) and in favor of the Russians (this sentence negates the above claim that says this was all becuase of AG and not any other reason). However, most historians agree (which historians, where, how many, what country) that the Armenians, hoping to avoid slaughter, fled to the mountains of Van to defend themselves against the Turks (if they fled then they obviously weren't killed, so how can they be devasted?) [1]. The anti-Turkish and pro-Russian sentiments were in the hopes of being rescued from Turkish massacres (why were they so sure they were going to be massacred, becasue they rebelled?). The Russians finally captured Van in late May of 1915 (anfd killed al the Turks, right?)
So this whole thing is gone. See my version which is sourced and unbiased. -- Oguz1 16:36, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
The Armenian name and sourced info on Kurdish majority were deleted by an anon. I readded. Andranikpasha 16:42, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
References
What, no famous turkish or kurdish people from Van? 87.113.119.89 ( talk) 16:56, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
You can start participate in discussion, by going over the discussion I had put above. That is how it is discussed instead of crude reverts. Discuss, by all means. Above all, is it being DENIED (note the irony!) that Muslims of Van suffered terribly? Something about this key fact is bothering someone?-- Murat ( talk) 22:32, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
"It was necessary to despoil and destroy all Turkish quarters so they could not nurture any hopes of returning" Mukhtarian, An Account, p.117.
"The Armenians seem perfectly debauched-plundering and revenge the only thought of the day and we may as well talk to the wall.... I think too the thought of Armenians is to make this a purely Armenian province", The American missionaries Mrs. G.C.Reynolds and Clarence Ussher, Eastern Turkey Mission, Woman's Board, Vol.1, Documents and Reports. Keep in mind these were very pro-Armenian folks. "The men they put to death, women and children they spared" says Ussher in a rare moment of objectivity. They mean the women and children who were able to escape to the Missionary compounds.
The first large scale massacres of Muslim civilians took place when the Russians invaded the Dir-Baskale and Saray regions at the beginning of the war. See Kara Schemsi, Turcs et Armeniens, pp41-42; Rustem, LaGuerr Mondiale, pp.11-13,31,97-98; Ermeniler Belgeleri, pp7, 10-11. There are of course countless Turkish documents, internal communications to the Ministeries, police and civil servants reporting various Armenian attrocities, names and details, even in some cases the names of the Armenian murderers. Many of them were their neighbors. Check http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/kitap/.
What do you think happened to the Muslims of Van and environs when the insurgents took over? Denial is a terible thing, one should know one's history and learn from it.-- Murat ( talk) 02:20, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps you should try acting on your own advice rather than hypocritically giving it out to others. Meowy 18:37, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Soo... what happened to the non-Armenians of Van during WWI? Denial and more denial...-- Murat ( talk) 22:53, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Why was Ferit Melen removed from the famous people list? He was from Van.-- Murat ( talk) 22:53, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
I do not get these so-called famous people whom we have never heard of and then they are labled as Armenian, or Russian, or American-Armenian, or French etc.. Where is Van? Where is Ottoman? This is an article about Van, no? If they were born in Van, or from Van, does not that make them Turkish-Armenian, or Ottoman-Armenian, or Ottoman at least? If not, why are they listed here? Unless this is fixed by someone who knows the difference, these bogus lists will be removed. There are plenty other places to spread propaganda.-- Murat ( talk) 12:24, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
"resulting in an uprising in Van on April 20, 1915, against the Turks and in favor of the Russians. However, most historians agree that the Armenian residents, hoping to avoid the slaughter inflicted on the rural populations surrounding Van, defended themselves in the Armenian quarters of the city against the Turks[7]. The anti-Turkish and pro-Russian sentiments were in the hopes of being rescued from Turkish massacres. The Russians finally relieved the Armenian defenders of Van in late May 1915"
- Most Hisorians do NOT agree with the above. References added to the contrary, McCarthy and Feigl have been removed repeatedly. - Armenian rebellion(s) came first, then the Government attempt to quell by force. The article creates the opposite impression. - Throughout this article references are made to "self-defense" and such fake-named articles in an obvious attempt to hide the simple fact this was a very violent armed rebellion. - This was a rebellion as decribed above: "defended themselves in the Armenian quarters of the city against the Turks". Fighting against their very own state and army. - Violence against Armenians who did not share the bloody vision of the "Revolutionaries" were treated worse than the Turks. Any attmpt at presnting this fact has also been snuffed by POV editors. - Russians did not "relieve" Armenians, they invaded a Turkish city helped by the Armenian insurgents. - Even the "official" Armenian propaganda puts the start of the so-called genocide AFTER the rebellion at Van. Events here precipitated even harsher measures by the Government later. Any attempt to put this in perspective have been rudely removed. The article contradict this simpe fact by referring an Armenian Rebellion as Genocide. - There is NO mention of the majority Turkish population of the city AND the province. One would not know that this is an ancient Turkish city. Massacres of the Muslims in the area have been left out and any any reference to this fact has been removed repeatedly. - The whole article seems to be about Armenians and their sufferings. The fact that this is an old Turkish city and its non-Armenian culture, people and history has been systematically cleansed off the article. - This article, like many others, reperesents the worst of ethnic propaganda on Wikipedia. It is uninformative and apallingly biased.-- Murat ( talk) 18:12, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
McCarthy is not a reliable source. Lida Vorig ( talk) 04:35, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
Who says? He is actually one of the few reliable sources and an expert on WWI history of Van. Of course you knew that and that is what the problem is.-- Murat ( talk) 05:07, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
Your reasons make sense to you only. Until there is a concesus and the points I made above are satisfied, and there is no need for these discussions right here, the tag will remain there.-- Murat ( talk) 15:14, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
"your 6Dec post is a POV diatribe that could have come from a card carrying MHP fanatic"..."Your Turkish nationalist propaganda sources"... "straight from a Turkish propaganda website"..."Murat's obscene misuse of the word "revolt""...
Only one person sounds like a fanatic here, Van, not Bitlis. You need to stop foaming at the mouth and limit the discussion to facts here. Removing all that you do not imporve is not a way to defend facts, one does that only to protect propaganda. The very fact that we are having this so-called discussion here is the reason the tag is there in the first place. -- Murat ( talk) 05:12, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
maybe you dont know but, there is another city called TATVAN that located opposite side of lake van. does anyone know "TAT" means opposite or against in any language? maybe urartu language?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.42.237.249 ( talk) 21:10, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
I added some notes about the recent population. No one believes the official statistic in this case, as per the sources mentioned, but this could partially be because of seasonal migration as well. Additionally I added a part about demographics in the Ottoman Empire and moved some stuff from the "genocide" section into there, to contextualize the issues when dealing with population statistics in that area and provide a NPOV which lets the reader decide for him/herself. Grant bud ( talk) 03:21, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
"According to Taner Akçam(!), citing Osmali Belgelerinde Ermeniler 1915-1920, after the Turks took back the city from the Russians they killed all Armenians in the city..." I suppose no need to question the credentials of this esteemed researcher who is known for his "objective" analysis of the topic! Analysis is all he can do since he does not access a lot of original material. In any case, what is strange about this statement is that there is no real reference, I mean what did the Ottoman documents say, that "they killed them all"? Even more strange is the fact that missionaries and diplomats who visited the area a short time later found a small population of Armenians in the cneter of the city, under the protection of the soldiers since the remaining and returning Muslim inhabitants were anxious for revenge. Murat ( talk) 03:16, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
It's claimed to be Odessa on this page, but on Odessa's page, there is no reference to this at all. In fact, Odessa is said to be twinned with Istanbul. 86.9.227.102 ( talk) 00:04, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
Was the "A park in the city center." picture that has statues and a fountain created by Armenians, Kurds or turks? -- TheShadowCrow ( talk) 16:22, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
By Ottomans.
Hi all,
First, Taner Akcam - according to his own article - is a historian and sociologist, not a writer and genocide researcher.
Second, the subtitle is about WWI and not the so-called genocide. If there is info about a genoicde that needs to be added then fine. Remember WWI was not about massacres but a war with multidimensional aspects. Let us treat it that way.
Third, it seems like there is a group of editors who have an agenda and they keep pushing it. It is clear as day. They keep making the same type of topic additions and reverting whatever does not fit their POV. They need to be addressed.
Shubuhat ( talk) 20:26, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
Agreed Murat. “All” is definitely an exaggeration. Besides, history cannot and is not based on the views of one or two writers. How come nobody is replying or updating the article? 786wave ( talk) 08:43, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
An official account is always a more reliable source than POV-pushing Armenian diaspora and lobbies in the US and Europe. Take your bias somewhere else please. By the way, something can’t be denied if it never occurred... Dominator1071 ( talk) 09:28, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
Sure, only when it fits the agenda and world view of most assertive users on WP. In other words, neutrality is a farce here. Good thing WP is not the final say in any real life matters. Dominator1071 ( talk) 03:42, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
Why is the Armenian name of the town included? These have been Turkish and Kurdish lands for a thousand years. Articles on Greek islands that were Turkish territory a hundred years ago are not allowing Turkish names to be included! Double standards seem to be at play. Someone explain it logically please. Dominator1071 ( talk) 23:19, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
So much for your Barnstar of Diplomacy! Dominator1071 ( talk) 09:29, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
I don’t see the Turkish or Ottoman names in Lesbos or Giannitsa. Please feel free to add them. Dominator1071 ( talk) 03:37, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
This
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109.199.229.118 ( talk) 11:53, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
| pushpin_map = Turkey #Europe #Asia #Earth |pushpin_relief = 1
This article, just like many other Eastern Anatolian related articles like Erzurum, is heavily biased towards pro-Armenian views. Just because history and facts state that the Armenian massacres occurred because of their rebellion does not make one a so-called genocide denier. I for one don’t believe in the exaggerated claims. Back to the point, this article carries heavy POV by radical Armenian editors. It needs a review and update by non-biased neutral editors. 786wave ( talk) 08:28, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
heavily biased towards pro-Armenian viewsas opposed to whitewashed to appease both sides. The academic consensus is that this "view" is what happened, a part of the Armenian Genocide
. I for one don’t believe in the exaggerated claims.Facebook would be a better place for such expressions, Here citations and references matter most. And last of all,
Just because history and facts state that the Armenian massacres occurred because of their rebellion does not make one a so-called genocide denier.Murdering and deporting entire civilian populations because of rebellions is still Genocide. if there are sharks in the water, do you kill the sharks, or dry the entire sea? And no, justifying Genocide is another form of Genocide denial. By comparison, try saying "the jews had it coming by 1940" while referring to the holocaust and see what happens. - Kevo327 ( talk) 10:34, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for proving my point. I have no intention of edit warring. Whatever floats your boat in the virtual world of Wikipedia. 786wave ( talk) 14:41, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
The Battle of Malazgirt opened the region for Turkish migrations, and the region has been inhabited by Turks and Kurds since then. Please read the article and don’t deny it. :) 786wave ( talk) 17:41, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
They were exiled to Lebanon. Plenty of radical Armenians exist there. 786wave ( talk) 19:15, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
It’s amazing how Turkophbic some people can get. I’m in Van at the moment. None of the other contributors are. Attempts at erasing the 1000-year-old Turkish history of the city are futile. It is the land of Turkey after all. However, the introductory paragraph does not reflect the general tone of the article. It implies that the city only has Armenian history. That’s definitely contrary to history books. 786wave ( talk) 09:51, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
Might want to stop trying to censor others. 786wave ( talk) 15:25, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
Just because I’m interested in adding missing info about Turks and Turkish rule over Van does not make me a nationalist. You can assume whatever you like. Please feel free to help add some Turkish history and influence too then. It’s definitely lacking in the article. 786wave ( talk) 14:06, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
Oh, and stop putting words in my mouth. Don’t apply false logic and assume good faith. Pretty basic things. 786wave ( talk) 14:09, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
There is a paragraph that is meant to cover the WWI history of Van but currently it only covers one single historical topic, controversial AG, which already has countless articles dedicated to it. In essence, the paragraph does not cover the WWI history of Van, which was rather eventful. It does not even cover a period, but seems to be pushing a particular topic at the expense of Van or history of it. I am editing the heading accordingly and will build it up more and invite other editors also to do so. Bring your opinions here please. Murat ( talk) 19:08, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
Who are some notable people from Van? 2A01:C23:8C60:F000:A932:C8AE:4E72:25B0 ( talk) 22:29, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 20:40, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
Van has 2 co-mayors. The other one is Neslihan Şedal/ The source is the same as for Zeydan. -- 95.24.63.92 ( talk) 23:57, 3 April 2024 (UTC)