Utopia (Doctor Who) was a Media and drama good articles nominee, but did not meet the
good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be
renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Doctor Who, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Doctor Who and its spin-offs on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this notice, or visit the
project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the
discussion.Doctor WhoWikipedia:WikiProject Doctor WhoTemplate:WikiProject Doctor WhoDoctor Who articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject BBC, an attempt to better organise information in articles related to the
BBC. If you would like to participate, please visit the
project page where you can join us as a member. You can also visit the
BBC Portal.BBCWikipedia:WikiProject BBCTemplate:WikiProject BBCBBC articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Television, a collaborative effort to develop and improve Wikipedia articles about
television programs. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page where you can
join the discussion.
To improve this article, please refer to the
style guidelines for the type of work.TelevisionWikipedia:WikiProject TelevisionTemplate:WikiProject Televisiontelevision articles
This article has been
automatically rated by a
bot or other tool because one or more other projects use this class. Please ensure the assessment is correct before removing the |auto= parameter.
This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
[[The Master (Doctor Who)#Professor Yana and Harold Saxon|Professor Yana]] The anchor (#Professor Yana and Harold Saxon) has been
deleted by other users before.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors
Editing
Please can we remain calm in the rush to edit the article and do it properly (ie correct spellings, punctuations and so on). Also there has been no mention of Saxon until the trailer for next week's episode so it doesn't need a major mention until the end of the article.
Also feel free to post in here first to build a consensus, I'm guessing there are a few conflicts at the moment.
AlanD19:22, 16 June 2007 (UTC)reply
The Sun claimed that the Professor would reveal himself to be the Master when he regenerated. It turned out to be a little more complicated than that.
Gallifreyan Summoner19:36, 17 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Pre-Publicity
David Tennant reports "The Face of Boe isn't lying, but there isn't really another Time Lord kicking about. It's a bit more complication than that. Yeah, stay tuned, yeah. But also, the Face of Boe story isn't finished yet either" during an interview by
Michael Parkinson on
5th May2007. [1],
I think we should include some reference to the fact we will find out what happened to Jack at the end of Torchwood as we know there will have to be a partial explination at least.
Walters109:26, 2 January 2007 (UTC)reply
There's a note from Russel T. Davies in the latest DWM saying that Jack will simply 'appear' in the TARDIS ('like a conquering hero') and Torchwood itself will not be heavily mentioned, if at all. How he got into the TARDIS itself may well be discussed, of course.
Radagast14:01, 5 January 2007 (UTC)reply
'Jack was last seen walking towards the (off-screen) TARDIS which disappeared at the end of the Torchwood episode End of Days.' Yeah quick thing he didnt walk he just smiled and looked around.
This:
Continuity
Captain Jack was last seen at the end of the Torchwood episode End of Days looking off-screen while the familiar sounds of a
TARDIS are heard in the background.
Should be removed, as there is no explination of how this relates to the continuity of the episode?
But it expains how he turned up in Cardiff, he was left on the gamestation at the end of parting of the ways.
Please start all responses with an indent (sentence above) and please sign all posts with four tildes. Just because one person hasn't signed their post, doesn't mean you all don't have to -
Weebiloobil20:04, 23 April 2007 (UTC)reply
This episode marks the furthest the TARDIS has gone into the future.
Should add a note (and external reference) that the year 100 Trillion is considered to be the fourteenth cosmological decade (1014 years), and marks the end of the The Second Age of the Universe - The Stelliferous Era of the five Ages of the Universe. The descriptions given throughout the episode are fairly accurate for what are hypothesized for the end of The Stelliferous Era.
32.97.110.14219:29, 18 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Short story "Utopia"
"Utopia is also the name of a short trips story featuring the Seventh Doctor." I think explanation or link to what short trips is would be useful. Otherwise it makes no sense.
220.237.81.7407:03, 24 February 2007 (UTC)reply
Would it also be worth mentioning in the Trivia section that Ace used to refer to the Seventh Doctor as (the) "Professor"?--
Crushtor12:56, 18 April 2007 (UTC)reply
Jacobi in this ep?
What is our reason to believe that Derek Jacobi's character shows up in this episode as opposed to The Sound of Drums? The Daily Mirror story merely says "toward the end of the series", and the
official site's story doesn't say anything about which story he's in (except that he's "caught in a desperate bid to save the human race"). Was he seen in filming for this episode or something? —
Josiah Rowe (
talk •
contribs)
09:25, 28 February 2007 (UTC)reply
Tennant and Jacobi are not wearing the same outfit at all, and the Tennant scene is almost certainly from Human Nature/The Family of Blood, a story in which The Doctor believes he's someone else, and which is set in a period which matches the Doctor's outfit.
Kelvingreen21:58, 7 April 2007 (UTC)reply
The article, in the published rumours section, says this:
The Sun has reported that the Professor (Sir Derek Jacobi) is the Master in disguise, and that this will be revealed when he regenerates. The Sun has also reported that John Simm (who is in the succeeding two episodes) will be playing the Master.
Whilst this could very well be true, it should really be accompanied by a note stressing that this is only a rumour. The article makes it sound very much like this is true. Perhaps a note such as, 'However, this has not been verified by the production team. The Sun has been known to get such rumours wrong in the past.', would do? -
Weebiloobil17:20, 10 April 2007 (UTC)reply
The Sun cannot be considered as a reliable publication. American contributors on DW pages might not understand the populist nature of British
tabloids, which are generally derided as sensationalist drivel by anyone interested in serious research. The Sun will pedal rumours because they sell papers, not because they are true. Some inevitably are (can't be wrong all the time), but better to wait for a reliable publication such as Radio Times or one of the broadsheets.
Gwinva10:49, 9 May 2007 (UTC)reply
The Sun claimed that the Professor would reveal himself to be the Master when he regenerated. It turned out to be a little more complicated than that.
Gallifreyan Summoner20:35, 17 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Citiation
"This episode also sees the return of a monster from the Patrick Troughton era. Many believe it to be the Macra." Says who? This needs citation (
Black Dalek19:58, 11 April 2007 (UTC)).reply
As I have mentioned in the discussion for The Lazerus Experiment, the Macra did appear in Gridlock. The BBCi trailer apparently (I managed to miss it :( ) features a scene of a giant crab (what the Macra look like in Gridlock) next to what looks like the deaging device from The Lazerus Experiment. If it is the Macra, and the deaging device, the scene could feasibly be from this episode, as this episode is set in the same time as The Lazerus Experiment. (Whoops, maybe it's not. However, there are certain speculations about a
Mr. Saxon, so I might be right after all). Nevertheless, it is just speculation -
Weebiloobil16:46, 15 April 2007 (UTC)reply
If you see "many believe..." or "some say..." and its companion "while others..." in a Wikipedia article, please remove the silly thing in its entirety. Such vague
weaseling is not appropriate to Wikipedia. Make the editor who inserted the claim source it properly. --
Tony Sidaway11:01, 9 May 2007 (UTC)reply
The Rift
The doctor says that the rift has been active, does this not make reference to The last 2 Torchwoods of series 1
True, but mostly the last two episodes, in which the rift was especially active. (This is me straining not to insert massive speculation to Talk page based on the clip!) ;) --
Karen |
Talk |
contribs20:08, 21 May 2007 (UTC)reply
Utopia image
I'll be removing the image again in a minute. The onus is on those seeking to include, not remove.
There's no source for the image, stating that this actor appears in x episode only... so this image must be from x *isn't* good enough. Without a source it could just as well be from "Last of the Timelords" (not all casting is announced -- take for example Starbuck's death in BSG, nobody knew she would return in the finale).
Images must contribute significantly to an article, that's policy, the image isn't even discussed... see
WP:NFCC. An image and a caption isn't good enough when there's no plot/etc to compliment and provide critical commentary.
Unless a
verifiable source is provided I will remove this image aggressively according to Wikipedia policy, those be the rules. Remember: the onus is yours, not mine (
WP:V).
Matthew13:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)reply
The source is: this is the only episode that Sir Derek Jacobi appears in. Therefore, any picture of him, saying this episode's name or not, is from this episode. See?
Logic overrides
NOR. Protection has been requested of the pre-war (ie my) version, so I'll revert back to that. You're warring, I'm keeping the status quo.--
Rambutan (
talk)
13:49, 8 June 2007 (UTC)reply
You don't have a source that this specific frame appears in this specific episode nor is there content to make it
NFCC compliant. I'm enforcing policy, you're violating it. It appears the page has been protected -- but not on the version
you want. Addendum: See
Wikipedia:There is no common sense, your logic isn't good enough.
Matthew13:58, 8 June 2007 (UTC)reply
(edit conflict) Re Matthew's first point, I think Rambutan establishes a very strong balance of probability; enough to be acceptable. Re Matthew's second point, this is more finely balanced. Is the image significantly illustrative of content in the article, or merely decorative? I think it's not a slam dunk, but since Derek Jacobi is the guest star for this episode, and since (at least at a very strong level of probability), the picture is illustrative of what he is portraying in this episode, I would let it through.
In any case, does it really matter? It's only a couple of weeks before the episode goes out, and then there will be no issue here. --
Jheald14:01, 8 June 2007 (UTC) (responding to Matthew's request at
WT:FAIR for external opinion).reply
It matters as Wikipedia takes copyright seriously -- if we had anything describing his character then it would likely be fair use.
Matthew14:08, 8 June 2007 (UTC)reply
(edit conflict)The source is that that SirDJ is in that episode alone, and that is
logically true. I've requested that the page be changed to "my version", since that was the pre-war one, and the fact that it was protected at the wrong version was due to when it was protected, not divine approval of your scheme.--
Rambutan (
talk)
14:02, 8 June 2007 (UTC)reply
That's... an essay... and it says
When advancing a position or justifying an action, base your argument on existing agreements, foundation issues and the interests of the encyclopedia, not your own common sense.
It's already agreed by every one except you that this is Jacobi's only appearance - if anyone can check the casting on DWM 380 for TSOD/LOTTL, that'd be good. Edit warring isn't in the interests of the pedia either. Will(
talk)14:04, 8 June 2007 (UTC)reply
I count me, Sceptre and JHeald in support of the picture, and you against it. That's how
consensus works - we don't need the entire population of Manchester to have a referendum.--
Rambutan (
talk)
14:09, 8 June 2007 (UTC)reply
So, consensus says that when protection is lifted - or before if we can persuade Majorly - the image should be replaced?--
Rambutan (
talk)
14:06, 8 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Why not use a picture that we know is in Utopia? Like Jack dangling from the TARDIS?—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
82.152.173.62 (
talk •
contribs)
Assuming you mean reinstated rather than replaced ... yes, that doesn't seem inappropriate to me. But let's see whether anybody else comes along.
Jheald14:11, 8 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Please use the image with some critical commentary. Just a little bit on the story behind it. Who took it? What is it of? Other information. Cheers! —— Eagle101Need help?20:39, 8 June 2007 (UTC)reply
The image appears to be entirely lacking in commentary and importance to the article. Is the need to see the role severely impacting the article? It is not, from the looks of it. The image would seem to be decorative, something not allowed per the
fair-use criteria.-Mask?21:38, 8 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Since the finer details of the image are not discussed, I have marked the FUR as invalid, as it relied on the idea that the image "represents the plot of the episode", which is of course nonsense. As much as I'd like to see an episode resolving around Derek JAcobi holding a cup...
81.104.175.14510:02, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
I don't understand either editprotected request. Also, this page was just protected; it could probably use a little cool-off period. If there are specific problems that can be easily address (e.g., typo fixes, etc.), please feel free to re-enable the editprotected request. Cheers. --
MZMcBride19:10, 8 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Citation
Just realised that ref 4 can be used to cover rene zagger's apperence in this ep. Could admin update it please. Also, you might want to change the companion format in the infobox to match prevous episodes. Thanks
Willow17711:26, 9 June 2007 (UTC)reply
In the Torchwood episode, the TARDIS appears in Jack's office, and in this episode, he has to run across the plaza to get onto it...what's the deal with this?
Kuralyov20:13, 9 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Simple. We don't see it arriving, we only hear it. It's quite logical for Jack to hear it in the hub if it has materialised directly above him (ie in the plaza). He rushes outside in a great hurry. Where's the continuity problem there?
Gwinva20:16, 9 June 2007 (UTC)reply
- You don't only hear the TARDIS arriving, you also see things blowing around (which usually accompanies the TARDIS when it materializes, which means it was in close proximity to Jack, i.e. in the same room. Also, only seconds pass from when Jack leaves Gwen in his office to hearing the TARDIS materialize/dematerialize – not enough time for Jack to grab a bag, get out of the base, and run to the TARDIS.
71.58.249.16002:19, 12 June 2007 (UTC)reply
The TARDIS landed ontop of the invisble lift seen in Torchwood so maybe the wind came down from there and blew everything about.
There's also the team's reaction to it, though- Gwen asks if they saw him, and they say no, so she instantly concludes "something's taken him, Jack's gone" rather than "Oh, he must've taken the lift, then". It does seem a little iffy, but it should probably stay out of the article, at the very least until Utopia has been aired. --
77.99.30.22611:31, 10 June 2007 (UTC)reply
maybe he used the invisible lift, they wouldn't see him because he is invisible and they came in through a different door (the main entrance to the hub). I know it seemed it was in the hub but it could have blown down from above, and they filed that before this episode. Jack even has a different personality in this episode (radio times revealed it) closer to that of Parting Of the ways, not the darker character of Torchwood
NIKKKIN11:55, 12 June 2007 (UTC)reply
There cannot be direct continuity: Doctor Who is also for children, Torchwood strictly for adults. Jack's Torchwood darkness would be inappropriate in DW, as would any direct link to the Torchwood hub (which would only encourage children to watch Torchwood). I think we won't hear much (if anything)in Doctor Who about Jack's time in Torchwood (whereas, Torchwood can happily make references from events in DW).
Gwinva12:22, 12 June 2007 (UTC)reply
I beg to differ - RTD established continuity by having Jack Harkness in both series - and references in Torchwood to what happened to Jack in DW and his search for 'the right kind of Doctor'. While they established that Jack would be the only character to cross between the shows, it seems they could have done a better job dovetailing the end of TW Series 1 with his return to DW in Utopia.
216.83.165.18015:35, 12 June 2007 (UTC)reply
I think it's safe to say that Torchwood and Doctor Who make little effort to maintain continuity where doing so might spoil dramatic effect. Here instead of the TARDIS materializing in an underground chamber and Jack boarding it, we get a dramatic chase across the square in broad daylight. Excellent value for money, and very Jack.
I've unprotected this article. While discussion continues regarding the inclusion of an image, no image should be added or removed from the article. I'm trusting that all editors will be able to exercise some self-control and use dialog rather than starting a new edit war. I want this article to be editable by everyone, and because this is an isolated issue with the page, I feel that everyone can keep discussion regarding the image on this talk page, while still preserving the ability to edit the page and its contents freely. If the disputed image is added or removed again, the page will most likely return to full protection. Please exercise some restraint. Cheers. --
MZMcBride16:41, 10 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Right, there are four editors who believe that the image is fine, and two who don't. Does this mean that general consensus has been reached? Alternatively, use an image from last night's trailer; I'll put one on now (that is, I'll upload it for comment here).--
Rambutan (
talk)
16:43, 10 June 2007 (UTC)reply
I'm still going to request that the image not be added, at least not without agreement among four or more editors. Cheers. --
MZMcBride18:31, 10 June 2007 (UTC)reply
The image is certainly from next weeks episodes, but it still has nothing to provide commentary on (see
WP:NFCC - Significance). Really, I don't understand this desire to upload an image first -- it's only an image, yes?
Matthew21:24, 10 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Another editor weighing in for the first time on this: I do think the image of the character known (from at least two sources) to be in the episode, with a good, informative caption, certainly meets Fair Use and other requirements, as surely as any other image illustrating an already-aired episode. Still, if the unaired-and-therefore-suspect component of the argument is a major hurdle, that becomes moot in another six days. Having to wait those six days seems silly but survivable - and once the episode airs, we'll have material for an even better caption. I do think, though, that an image can be genuinely informative and illustrative (and thus allowable) before the air date, as long as the right conditions are met: 1) we know it's from the episode and 2) it clearly provides context and isn't merely decorative. --
Karen |
Talk |
contribs22:10, 10 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Consensus isn't about numbers. Consensus is about reasoning. Your reasoning is flawed - the use of the image in this article does not meet
WP:NFCC, plain and simple.
81.104.175.14510:04, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Sorry, this must be rather complicated for you. Read the following bullet points, and perhaps you’ll understand:
Therefore, there can be disagreements about whether or not things meet it.
An administrator has ruled, on this page, that if four users agree that it meets the guidelines, and fewer than four disagree, then it can be assumed to be acceptable.
Three users - so far - agree that it meets the NFCC. Two disagree (you don't count, you're anonymous).
Therefore, one more user will complete the required consensus.
No, because you clearly don't understand what
consensus is.
The NFCC are a relatively strict definition - either something meets it, or it doesn't. There's no middle ground, just like a woman can't be "a little bit pregnant".
There is no such ruling on this page. What was said is that the agreement of four editors is a necessary condition. Nobody said it would be a
sufficient condition.
Four editors agree that the image is fair use. Sure, there's room for disagreement, but that's why we discuss it. Only two established editors think it isn't allowed, so we go with the flow. Please don't remove the image again; discuss it here, bearing in mind how nasty
edit wars are, and the
3RR.--
Rambutan (
talk)
10:43, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Four editors agree. So what? What's your point here? The image doesn't meet the
WP:NFCC. It fails criterion 4, since the episode has not yet aired. It fails criterion 8, because it does not significantly contribute to the article (mentioning that
Derek Jacobi is in the article will replace it, unless you consider the cup important). The image itself fails criterion 10, because the FUR provided was invalid. Hence, while it may be fair use in a legal sense, we can't use it in this article because it fails three of the criteria. Four editors clearly does not make a "consensus", but even then, consensus does not trump policy. Anyway, it's only an "edit war" as long as you insist on replacing it into the article.
81.104.175.14510:52, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
We've all been discussing whether or not it meets the criteria, the score is 4-2 at the moment. If it so obviously and objectively breaches the criteria, how come four users think it doesn't, and only two think it does? The consensus isn't to override policy, it's to decide whether policy is being overridden.--
Rambutan (
talk)
10:54, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
I'm not too happy with the picture - mainly because the quality is poor for its resolution. I also think that an image of the "Humans are coming!" guy or the chase would give way to a slightly more informative caption (I have screenshots of both, but I can't upload it as I'm at a public terminal), but I have no problems with it as of yet. Will(
talk)10:30, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Sorry, Will, I uploaded it before I noticed your comment. I agree about the resolution, but I don't really have the time and energy to improve it! It'll do for a placeholder, at any rate. I'd be happy for your "Humans are coming" image, anyway: I just couldn't pause my video at a decent non-blurry point!--
Rambutan (
talk)
10:33, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
It was not abusive, "abusive" means rude comments about you. I didn't use it for that, I used it to support consensus. Anyway, it's over now, so drop it.--
Rambutan (
talk)
11:03, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Because an IP was not following consensus. If I wasn't consensus and
Khaosworks kept reverting, I think Khaosworks would be quite right to protect the page. Will(
talk)11:07, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
I agree: in fact, unless 81.104.175.145 has anything else to contribute to the discussion (rather than griping about reasonable measures being taken against him), then the case can be considered closed!--
Rambutan (
talk)
11:11, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
They were not reasonable.
WP:PROT: Semi-protection should not be used ... in a content dispute between registered users and anonymous users, with the intention to lock out the anonymous users.81.104.175.14511:14, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
As I explained, the consensus was, that policy was not broken. The consensus was not to break policy. We decided that the image was fine with NFCC. Thus, you're acting in a unilateral way.--
Rambutan (
talk)
12:11, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Start explaining then. As I said, NFCC is not a
bright-line rule. Thus, there is oppurtunity for debate. The conclusion of the debate was that that image fell on the "OK" side of the non-bright-line.--
Rambutan (
talk)
12:14, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
And your reporting of the editor who removed it to AIV as a "troll" was helpful how? The image was not fair use, is not fair use, and will not be fair use. It therefore is not necessary to the article, and its removal was correct.
Neil╦12:16, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
The NFCC is policy, simple as. Two or three users agreeing with you and you declaring consensus doesn't actually equal consensus.
Matthew12:18, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
OK, policy, guideline, whatever. It doesn't change the point: it's open to interpretation, and we interpreted it as fine.--
Rambutan (
talk)
12:25, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
No, he was reverting in line with policy. Policy outweighs consensus on an individual article talk page; if you want a Wikipedia policy to be changed, you need to establish consensus on the policy talk page, not here.
Waggers12:28, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
(ec) We had to decide whether or not the image was acceptable, as the policy was too vague. We decided that it was. We did this with reference to the policy. The policy is not totally objective, it could be debated. If it is to be taken as a
bright-line rule, then write it into the policy. Otherwise, it needs discussion because it's shamefully inadequate.--
Rambutan (
talk)
12:32, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
It doesn't matter. Page prot. was not appropriate to this, as I pointed out on
WP:RFPP. You wouldn't let it drop there, so I ended up getting involved with the dispute (which, I'm sure, you now regret). Right now, another admin has stepped in, viewed the issue in detail and deleted the image and link in question. I think it's time to move on now ... -
Alison☺12:30, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
How would I know? The law is clear in many respects, yet many a layman do not have a clear understanding of it. Wikipedia's policies are not esoteric either. The deletion has been endorsed by administrators, who are, generally speaking, the most experienced of users on the encyclopedia. Trust us. :) —
Nearly Headless Nick{C}12:49, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Ummm... look, I'm as big a fan of nuking non-free content as the next person, but this image can clearly pass #4 and #8 with minimal fuss. Any image from the trailer has been published (we'd just be using a very small excerpt from the video), and the case of illustration seems to me significant - given that very little is known about an episode before it airs, an image goes a long way to illustrating the tone of an episode. Similarly, casting news like Derek Jacobi's appearance is well-illustrated by a picture of his character. The only thing that may well not have been good was the image tag, but that could readily be fixed by a re-upload with a proper tag.
Phil Sandifer14:00, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
The policy defines publication very poorly, then - by any reasonable standard a television presentation is verifiable and sourceable - we use them as sources routinely elsewhere, as they are readily obtainable in their original broadcast form. This is a particularly nitpicky objection, I feel.
Phil Sandifer14:51, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
IIRC, purely illustrative uses such as "Derek Jacobi is in the episode, so here's a picture of Derek Jacobi" are prohibited by the policy. Admittedly, I may not RC.
81.104.175.14514:13, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
I would argue that the picture illustrated the event of a well-regarded actor appearing in Doctor Who, and further gave a sense of what that appearance consisted of. I'll grant that there is room for debate here, but it's certainly not as clear-cut as you're making it seem.
Phil Sandifer14:51, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
The image was of Derek Jacobi in a generic costume. It could have been any period drama, and thus did not sufficiently identify the performance.
81.104.175.14515:12, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
That's ridiculous. By that standard most any picture of an actor in a role that does not have a highly distinct costume would be unusable to illustrate that character. Put another way, it would be demonstrably inferior to have a picture of Derek Jacobi in a similar piece of period garb from another performance entirely.
Phil Sandifer18:08, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Ok, if Sir Nick says its being deleted, let it be. I, for one, dont want it getting protected again. We'll just have to wait till saturday to get an image for the article.
Willow17714:26, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
I've readded in an image - the original one. The original one does pass
WP:NFCC, to 81's concerns:
In a published work: yes, the Series 3 extra trailer.
Significant: yes - Jacobi is an esteemed actor, and he has worked for Doctor Who in the past. The latter is mentioned in the article.
Rationale: yes. And it was rude of 81 to tell Marnette that it didn't.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but it still fails the NFCC. "Non-free media is not used unless it contributes significantly to an article. It needs to significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic in a way that words alone cannot.", the image provides no commentary on the episode, or the character. The image is simply decorative to show the character -- you need to discuss the character.
Matthew15:36, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Very true.
User:Sceptre also needs to bear in mind that every single use of non-free content must be justified. A rationale that might have been valid in one article is not necessarily valid in others.
81.104.175.14515:50, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
In the context of the article, an image of him in character would be more significant and helpful to the reader than a free image. Will(
talk)16:46, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Unfortunately, "helpful" doesn't go towards NFCC#8. You haven't gone any way towards demonstrating why the image is a "significant contribution" to the article - right now, it seems to be just a decorative addition.
81.104.175.14516:48, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
It seems to me straightforward that a free image of Jacobi not from this episode is an inferior illustration to one from this episode. Again, I'm not trying to say the matter is clear-cut. Far from it, this is a complex issue. What bothers me is the dogmatism of "the image is unacceptable" and the citing of NFCC as though it could be applied robotically.
Phil Sandifer18:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
No, it just means that images must comply with the NFCC (e.g. have something to provide commentary on). The aired episodes have this, the unaired episodes do not. This is simply the desire to prematurely insert an image peaking its head -- really, there's no immense rush. A point to also consider for images of unaired episodes is last weeks image, the caption was totally incorrect -- and that was down to editors speculating (nudge)...
Matthew18:23, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
That does not seem at all useful to me. For instance, the image on last week's episode illustrates little beyond what Sally Sparrow and a Weeping Angel look like. That does not seem to me materially different from illustrating what Derek Jacobi's character will be looking like.
Phil Sandifer19:32, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Well I have seen images of dead people being deleted on the basis that there is a free replacement picture , even though people provided fair use rationales ,so various editors do seem to be taking a dogmatic approach over what constitutes free content .
Garda4019:46, 12 June 2007 (UTC)reply
The following summary appeared on the official BBC Youtube channel for a day or so on their Utopia trailer. It has since been edited but several people/websites have noted the original version:
The TARDIS propels itself to the end of the Universe where they encounter the Futurekind, a wild race that hunts humans for food. After a narrow escape the Doctor, Martha and Captain Jack find themselves in Silo 16 where Professor Yana is building a rocket for the remaining humans to escape to a distant Utopia.
There are some who say the name "Yana" is very significant for reasons I won't immediately point out as it is perhaps spoilerific.
TaraLivesOn14:41, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Of which the only two verfiable sources are BBC press releases and Outpost Gallifrey, so I pretty much was right. Will(
talk)14:58, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
I was going through and citing this article, but I appear to have removed the reference table. Also, I am tempted to remove the section about the TARDIS refueling, as it seems like speculation. Feedback please
Willow17715:12, 11 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Ah nevermind me, sorry. It took quite a bit of searching but apparently it was a third hand report from someone saying their friend was told that, LOL. The third person was someone respectable but they didn't quote their source so I thought it was like a magazine. Apparently not. My apologies. --
TaraLivesOn22:52, 12 June 2007 (UTC)reply
That sounds like the rumour that Derek Jacobi's The Proffessor was the Master in disguise, and he regenerates into John Simm's Mr Saxon.
Digifiend11:22, 13 June 2007 (UTC)reply
They didnt announce that the daleks eg. Nicholas Briggs was going to be in doomsday last year. they cant use the cast list to give away the endings.
Willow17711:12, 15 June 2007 (UTC)reply
but we really don't know yet, not until they tell us officially or we see the episode. As far as we know the surprise could be that Jack is a timelord (I doubt it, especially as Barrowman is in the finale, but we don't know). It won't be clear until it has aired
NIKKKIN17:48, 16 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Apparently the "name in credits" quote is from What's On TV not the Radio Times. Its' not in copy of RT, and I had a flick through WoTV in a newsagents and the quote was there so I jotted down the page number and article title... but It seems the "joy to play" and "sad leader" quotes aren't from RT either and I only gave WoTV a cursory glance... are these from there too? --
GracieLizzie14:16, 13 June 2007 (UTC)reply
As no-one's been able to properly source this (and as it doesn't really add much concrete information to the article), we might as well remove those quotes.
Mark H Wilkinson13:15, 14 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Outpost Gallifrey ascribes this quote to the Radio Times: "It's not the Captain Jack from Torchwood. He's not angsty, he's not moody; he's determined, but in a different way. Captain Jack from Doctor Who is a little more light-hearted, because he’s back where he wants to be. Although he loves the Torchwood team, one of his main objectives over the past couple of years has been to find the Doctor, to figure out why Jack is the way he is. Now he's there, he can let the Doctor take the responsibility for everything and he can sit in the background a bit.", so some of the removed stuff was right. Don't know if you want it, though.
Gwinva13:42, 14 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Some of the sense is the same, yes, though worded differently. To me it appears more relevant to the characterisation section at
Jack Harkness, but people editing that may well be waiting for the episodes to be broadcast.
Mark H Wilkinson13:56, 14 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Totally Doctor Who & three-parters
Can people please note that a line from a children's television presenter may not mean that the production office views Utopia as the first of a three-parter? Last I checked, DWM still has eps 12 & 13 as a two part story. That episode 11 leads into this two-parter is neither here nor there unless RTD or someone official says something to that effect.
Mark H Wilkinson17:40, 15 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Agree entirely, and suggest that this page, the episode listings and
Master (Doctor Who) are changed back to the original one-parter plus two-parter structure, as consistently indicated in Doctor Who Magazine and I'm sure, intended by Davies. Utopia has a different director, style, setting and cast (apart from 3 regulars and a guest) from the two-parter. Unless you want to list Keeper of Traken and Logopolis as a single eight-episode serial for almost-identical reasons. --
87.112.26.13911:42, 24 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Plot
I think it would be nice if we could keep the plot to the main things: The Master, Captain Jack, Utopia and the regeneration, and so on. Some of our plot summaries are nothing more than "he did this then she did that and then..." which is painful to read and not very encyclopedic. --
Tony Sidaway19:36, 16 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Buried in the haze of noises that Yana hears as he remembers who he is, there seem to be some classic Master quotes. I definitely heard "You will give your power to me," from The Daemons. Anyone able to pick out any more? -
Chris McFeely20:03, 16 June 2007 (UTC)reply
There is not a specific line from any of Ainley's performances. You hear his evil laugh. The creators of this episode must have taken it from a specific moment during his years as the Master but I have not read which episode they took it from. If anyone has read it the it could be added as a sourced edit on the main page.
MarnetteD |
Talk22:17, 26 May 2008 (UTC)reply
Don't insert shit within articles, yes I can just revert -- those templates go on talk pages.
Wikipedia:Avoid self-references: "Wikipedia's free content is reused in many places, online and off. Don't assume that the reader is reading Wikipedia, or indeed any website."
Matthew20:48, 16 June 2007 (UTC)reply
The problem is, after an episode, I spend about 45 minutes "policing": I've not yet made a single genuine edit to the page for Utopia, SoD, LotTL or the Master, because I've been too busy with my poopa-scoop. If we warn people to use correct spelling and grammar, then that could potentially reduce the number of reverts by 10%.--
Rambutan (
talk)
06:34, 17 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Spoilers for "The Sound of Drums" and "Last of the Time Lords"
Can we please remove the reference to Martha realizing that the Master's new body is Mister Saxon? Viewers who skip the "Next Episode" trailers to avoid spoilers may not have realized the Saxon/Master connection yet, and it would be terribly unfair to spoil such a surprise in a future episode. Further, the reference to the return of the Master at the very beginning of the article should be eliminated for the time being; someone who clicks on this page who hasn't seen the episode yet may not realize that the Master returns (particularly viewers in North America), and it would be unfair to put such an important spoiler at the very beginning. If they read the detailed synopsis, then, sure, it's on them, but it's not like people don't accidentally click links. --
User:DarthSci 23:59 16 JUNE 2007 UTC
1) Setting things up so in an article about an episode that only just aired in its home country, and has not yet aired internationally, so as to avoid spoiling readers who may have accidentally clicked on the episode link or who have avoided spoilers of subsequent episodes hardly constitutes censorship.
2)
But spoiler warnings may be used on occasion. The relevant section reads as follows: "Spoiler warnings may be used in articles whose primary subject is fictional, and where the editors proposing them have compelling arguments for their insertion. Such reasons should demonstrate that the spoiler tag does not diminish article quality, and that knowledge of the spoiler would substantially diminish many readers' or viewers' enjoyment of the work." Revealing that the Master is in "Utopia" in the lead paragraph does not improve the quality of the article (the same information can be revealed in the lead paragraph in a nonspoilerific way, such as through a link), and it does ruin the surprise for anyone who's not yet seen the episode and is only glancing through the lead paragraph. Similarly, there are plenty of viewers who may have seen "Utopia" but have no conception of the Saxon/Master link because they avoided the trailer (which was, after all, put at the very end of the credits). So it's even more inappropriate to spoil episodes that haven't even aired yet. -- DarthSci
Guidelines are subordinate to policy. Not to mention that other shows air way before the UK and are still spoiled. Will(
talk)01:04, 17 June 2007 (UTC)reply
The lead must contain the following facts, which are the most signficant about this episode:
it is a return for the companion Captain Jack Harkness
it is a return for The Master
The Master regenerates
This follows from the
Lead section guideline and our duty as an encyclopedia to
Neutral point of view. We don't omit details just because some people don't want to know them. This isn't a fan wiki and it isn't a blog. It's an encyclopedia.
In deference to the fact that this episode has only aired, presently, on BBC, I suggest that we follow the practice recommended in the
spoiler guideline and put a {{spoiler}} tag at the very top of the page. --
Tony Sidaway01:19, 17 June 2007 (UTC)reply
An acceptable compromise. -- DarthSci 01:26 17 JUNE 2007 UTC
There's no need for the spoiler tag, as far as I can see. Information about an episode found in an encyclopedia article about that episode can hardly be called "unexpected". — Carl (
CBM ·
talk)
02:47, 17 June 2007 (UTC)reply
The Master/Saxon connection is a bit different, as the information wasn't actually revealed in this episode. We should keep the summary here to what this episode reveals. It's revealed in the next episode that Martha identified the voice as Mr. Saxon's, so we should put that note in that episode, not this one (and the "Next time..." segments count as part of that episode). --
Infophile(Talk)(Contribs)04:36, 17 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Simple as, if you read
WP:SPOILER, it says that spoiler-warnings are permissible when the editors can prove that it would spoil enjoyment if they weren't there. We've done that, so it's allowed.--
Rambutan (
talk)
09:55, 17 June 2007 (UTC)reply
It has been done above, but I'll do it again since you evidently can't reach the PgUp key.
It doesn't affect the article adversely: anyone seeing it will say, "Oh, that's OK, I've watched it".
If someone knew that the Master was there, it would not affect their enjoyment that much. BUT, they would also find that he was the season's "big bad", and appeared in the next two episodes - neither of which have been broadcast yet.--
Rambutan (
talk)
10:05, 17 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Rambutan, you still haven't provided rationale as to why a spoiler tag is needed. Basically you're just saying: "I'm paranoid that this article will 'spoil' somebody... so lets add a placebo to the top of the article."
Matthew10:21, 17 June 2007 (UTC)reply
WP:SPOILER says that if a spoiler-tag is justified according to those two criteria, it's allowed. It's policy. It's justified, so it's allowed. It's allowed. What is it you find complicated? Is
WP:SPOILER not policy any more?--
Rambutan (
talk)
10:14, 17 June 2007 (UTC)reply
The credits, an authoratitive source, say "the Master", just as they say "the Doctor". On other Master-stories, eg Colony in Space, it's linked including the "the". Why's this any different?--
Rambutan (
talk)
07:57, 17 June 2007 (UTC)reply
IIRC, the credits have also said "Doctor Who" for the Doctor at certain points in the show's history - but we know that the character's name isn't "Doctor Who". We don't use "The Master" or "The Doctor" (capitalized, not including the beginning of sentences), and esthetically, it just looks wrong to link the lower-case "the". I think we have to decide what is the correct form - and then adjust all the articles to match, rather than just using other Master episodes as a template. Thoughts? --Ckatzchatspy08:05, 17 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Chan, my thought is that all the Master episodes have stood like that for a long time, and nobody's complained, tho. He also identified himself as "the Master" to Chantho, so that discounts your quote. It's a grey area, but since "the Doctor" is most commonly referred to as that, I think that the phantom "the" should stay.--
Rambutan (
talk)
08:08, 17 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Well, it certainly isn't worth an edit war. Discussion, yes, and I'll agree that it is a grey area. However, if we look at the Wikipedia articles, we rarely see the term "The Doctor" capitalized; it is written as "the Doctor". Furthermore, the main article on the character is located at
Doctor (Doctor Who). While Wikipedia article naming conventions avoid using articles such as "The", exceptions are allowed when it is a part of the actual name. One would think that the article would have been located at
The Doctor instead. --Ckatzchatspy08:33, 17 June 2007 (UTC)reply
I'm not talking about it being capitalised. It shouldn't be capitalised. But, it should be linked, since that's his name, according to other WP articles, the credits, bits of the episodes, various news releases and the official synopsis for LOTTL.--
Rambutan (
talk)
08:35, 17 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Capitalization is important, however - if the term isn't capitalized. it becomes debatable as to whether it is actually a part of the name. (Plus, where do the other articles categorically state that the name *is* "the Doctor", rather than just having it written that way? There seems to be a lot of grey as well, with the only definitive part being that "Doctor" is involved.) --Ckatzchatspy08:52, 17 June 2007 (UTC)reply
The argument is best resolved by reference to the programme "You might be a doctor but I am the Doctor. The definate article you might say" - Tom Baker, Robot. Seems pretty conclusive to me. The Doctor is only addressed directly as "Doctor", all third person refferences include the definate article. Ditto with the Master, with the difference that I believe that this is the first time the Doctor has addressed him as such, all previous salutations being variations on "oi you."
MartinMcCann10:43, 17 June 2007 (UTC)reply
MartinMcCann, thanks for the explanation - but could you please state which one you feel is correct? (Pardon my confusion, but your text could be taken as supporting either format. --
Ckatz21:42, 17 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Sorry, but that's hardly "case proven". If HRH says "I am (pause for dramatic effect) the Queen" - does that mean her name is "The Queen"? --Ckatzchatspy21:42, 17 June 2007 (UTC)reply
On the point that lack of capitalisation makes it "debatable as to whether it is actually a part of the name" (I think it was Ckatz's point), that's not necessarily true. Neither the Master or the Doctor are human (I know, stating the obvious, stay with me), so it might be probable that their native language isn't a human one (in this case, English), whether they actually understand it themselves or not (and they don't have to). Anyway, the point. Names from other languages don't have to be completely capitalised throughout (usually, I think, due to those parts of their names being, err, "minor" words (such as from)). A few examples:
Ludwig van Beethoven,
Edwin van der Sar, and
Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. Therefore, it could be argued that it isn't necessary for there to be a capital letter for it to be part of the name, in the language they speak (probably), and this is carried across to an English translation. I hope my point's clear enough. And I just realised this is longer than I thought it was, sorry. --
81.152.101.21922:27, 17 June 2007 (UTC).reply
Ckatz, apologies for the lack of clarity. Since the articles are written in the third person, the definate article should be used.
MartinMcCann17:23, 18 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Do people think that it's worth noting that the Master is the fourth character to appear in both the old and the new series?
GusF15:34, 17 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Do we have a reliable source for this? The reason I ask is because this is very tricky territory. Does the Nestene Consciousness count as a character? It certainly has a speaking part in
Rose. --
Tony Sidaway16:28, 17 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Well lets be honest, its Doctor Who, you would expect to see charecters re-appearing. First, Second and Third may be worthy to note, but where are we going to stop? 5th, 6th? I'd say the fact its fourth isn't that interesting, plus its more then four anyway. --
Wiggstar6916:29, 17 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Yeah, I meant the Doctor, Sarah Jane and K-9. I didn't think it was of great import myself. Just wanted to see what the consensus was. I'll show myself out.
GusF 17:55, 17 June 2007.
I think this might be note-worthy in the
main article, or perhaps
here under a trivia section? Perhaps not so much in this article though. — Xy7 16:59, 17 June 2007
In addition to my above comment, I would say only human/humanoid characters would be note-worthy, including the Doctor, the Master, and companions. — Xy7 20:54, 17 June 2007
I've been saying "The Master regenerates during the course of the episode, so he is played by two actors" in the lead section, and Sceptre has been removing it.
Maybe we should discuss this.
It seems pretty important to me. Time Lords seldom regenerate, and when this happens in Doctor Who there are two actors playing the part: one before and one after. I'd like to know why this keeps being removed from the lead section as "not important enough." --
Tony Sidaway17:21, 17 June 2007 (UTC)reply
I think the 'Plot' section for this article needs rewriting - it goes through the story but not in too much detail (it leaves out what the Doctor and Jack talk about when he is in the radiation room which i think is quite important) and i do not like it when it says 'A subplot includes...' as this should just be intergrated into the article as it goes through the story. Could someone please change this? I'd do it myself but i have exams i need to revise for. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
S-m-r-t (
talk •
contribs) 17:32, 17 June 2007
I used the Digital Spy news item - I'm unsure as to its reliability, but it does prove it was indeed pointed out by at least one source pre-episode. Will(
talk)19:37, 17 June 2007 (UTC)reply
- I haven't seen and confimation that "Mister Saxon" was meant as an anagram of "Master no Six", but the BBC's fact file on the episode "Utopia" points out that the John Simm incarnation of the Master is the sixth incarnation that the Doctor has faced. Peter Pratt and Geoffrey Beevers played the same incarnation and the Gordon Tipple incarnation didn't face the Doctor onscreen.
Gallifreyan Summoner 19:44, 17 June 2007 (UTC) Edited by
Gallifreyan Summoner22:32, 17 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Also, the fact file specifically refers to Simm as 'Master No Six' (spelt exactly like that). I think GS has Eric Roberts confused with the guy who played the Master during the TV movie's opening.
The BBC website uses the formulation "Master No. Six". Not only is this an anagram of "Mister Saxon", it is an unusual formulation too. Given the Tremas>Master thing in the past, it cannot be a coincidence. It is not original research, just a straightforward, uncontroversial deduction.
The bit about the tv pundit is fine. Saying more would be unsourced speculation. There's a difference between reporting that somebody speculated on the anagram and saying that the anagram was intentional. It probably was, but we have no source saying that it was and we shouldn't imply that we do. --
Tony Sidaway22:22, 17 June 2007 (UTC)reply
I imagine that after the next episode, the BBC website will be explicit about this. Although I see no need to wait a few days to re-add the info, I suppose it is only a matter of a few days before your objection will be removed,
The Tribe of Gum19:35, 18 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Should an encyclopedia be asking questions to the reader?
The synopsis section is full of flowery, non-encyclopedic language. Most notably, the decidedly non-neutral closing sentence: "But will the vicious Futurekind thwart his plans?" Is this an encyclopedia article or an advertisement for the show? I was just going to change it, but a comment within the article pointed me to the talk page -- but I can't find any relevant discussion. Let's get this cleaned up. --
MisterHand14:10, 18 June 2007 (UTC)reply
I wrote that, with the aim of having a suitably "dramatic" synopsis without copyvioing the official one, which is usually reverted two between 14 and 17 times by anonymous users. I don't see anything wrong with it, but won't fight if it's changed. However, I can't really see what could replace it?--
Rambutan (
talk)
15:14, 18 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Why does the synopsis have to be "dramatic"? It's well-written, but it reads like the blurb off the back off of a paperback novel. Hence the "advert" tag I put on there earlier. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
MisterHand (
talk •
contribs)
By all means suggest an alternative. I only made it dramatic because if it was dry, some prat would replace it with the official synopsis, which would be a copyvio.--
Rambutan (
talk)
15:52, 18 June 2007 (UTC)reply
yes, i have an opinion, i think you should get over yourself. So other people are making edits, big deal, just because we're ip's doesn't make us wrong, and yet you revert every edit that you don't like. just because you're a member, doesn't make you better than ip's--
81.76.90.12312:05, 19 June 2007 (UTC)reply
The fact that you're an IP doesn't make you wrong, but most IP edits within the first two hours of the episode's broadcast are wrong.--
Rambutan (
talk)
12:09, 19 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Is it worth mentioning that this is the first regeneration of a character - other than the Doctor - to be shown on screen?
I know that Romana regenerated in
Destiny of the Daleks, but the actual regeneration was not shown on screen - you just saw her coming in with different bodies.
StuartDD10:06, 19 June 2007 (UTC)reply
What about Master regenerations, I can't remember whether any were shown on screen. The one in the TV movie wasn't a regeneration, it was the masters spirit possessing a human body. So if it is the case, it might be worth mentioning that the master has not been seen regenerating before.--
MrClaxson17:34, 19 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Given that a)the Ainley Master looks nothing like Tremas and b)that merging looked suspiciously like the Watcher merging with the Doctor in Logopolis, I'd call that a regeneration, albeit an unconventional one.
MartinMcCann19:49, 19 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Er...no. a) He looked like a younger Tremas. b) Non sequitur. Just because the visuals looked similar doesn't mean that they're the same things. I mean, Meglos controlling the Earthman's body had similar visuals as the Master's "regeneration". It doesn't necessarily make either one a regeneration.
DonQuixote19:59, 19 June 2007 (UTC)reply
MartinMcCann, the Ainley Master is supposed to look sufficiently like Tremas to fool Nyssa into thinking he's still her father (cf.
Logopolis). Whatever you wish to call it, it's certainly not meant to be Time Lord regeneration.
Mark H Wilkinson22:13, 19 June 2007 (UTC)reply
As a slight seqway; would it be worth mentioning that in making the show, Graeme Harper would be the first Director to have done two regenrations from two different stories? He directed "Caves of Androzani".
71.145.162.1316:04, 20 June 2007 (UTC)reply
In general, unless some reliable and verifiable secondary source says it (such as it being pointed out in a Doctor Who Confidential), then no, we shouldn't put it in. --
Infophile(Talk)(Contribs)17:30, 20 June 2007 (UTC)reply
How many zeros in a trillion?
From what I understand, there should be three more zeros if we're talking about a British trillion here, which I think we have to assume. Gives us all a bit more hope for the future of the universe, too - I'd like to think it lasts a bit longer!
Famico66614:20, 23 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to not use the number at all though, and just use the written 100 trillion - or even one hundred trillion - as the years are in
New Earth and
Gridlock. Putting both number and words, whether or not it can be shown Russell T. Davies uses short scale (not everyone would know that...), might cause unnecessary confusion. I'd personally say the same goes for
The Sound of Drums. --
86.130.28.12120:59, 23 June 2007 (UTC).reply
The following section continually keeps getting taken down, despite being significant enough to become a national news story about Utopia, where it's confirmed as an internet hit. What's everyone's thoughts on this? I think it's significant enough to be mentioned.
The Metro newspaper reported that a pair of female Doctor Who fans from Ireland had "become internet stars after a clip of them enjoying an episode of the sci-fi series just a little too much was shown on the web". The clip, titled Whogasm was uploaded on
June 17,
2007 and shows them watching Utopia, when, as The Metro describes, "Suddenly, they start to scream and swear as the action unfolds in front of them in what can only be described as a 'Whogasm'."[1][2]bingo9917:52, 29 June 2007 (UTC)reply
The Metro is a category unto itself when you're saying "national, regional, local" - it's "sold" around Britain, but only on specific transport routes (West Yorkshire, Manchester, London, and I think maybe Birmingham). Will(
talk)19:16, 29 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Its still has a readership in the millions in the UK. It's the fourth most read daily paper.
The Whogasm section was ridiculously large and detailed, so I've trimmed it back and given the section a more encyclopedic name. --
Tony Sidaway07:17, 30 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Notability, the relevant article informs me, is not a temporary commodity. We do not serve the community by including flash in the pan stories.
Mark H Wilkinson08:03, 30 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Having read the Whogasm part distilled into it's essence, all I can say is "so what?" it's not relevant to the episode or story itself, it is trivia. Which doesn't in my view mean it shouldn't be included, but if it is then where do you draw the line?
Jasonfward13:54, 30 June 2007 (UTC)reply
I don't think it belongs in the article. If not enough people agree, we wait a couple of weeks and then we'll find that opinions have changed in the direction of removal. See the
recentism essay. --
Tony Sidaway14:05, 30 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Whoops... didn't realize the discussion was ongoing when I removed the section as per Digby. Kudos to Tony for condensing the material, but I don't think it needs to be in either. Does that seem to be consensus so far, and should we proceed on that basis (i.e. keep it out unless a majority speaks up to put it in?) Thoughts? --Ckatzchatspy16:44, 30 June 2007 (UTC)reply
That's the line I recall hearing, and it sounded like Delgado, but I don't know that we have anything stronger than the fact file reference
[4] (which mentions "the words and laughter of earlier incarnations of The Master" but doesn't specify) to attest that it is taken from the Daemons. Same goes for Ainley's laughter.
Mark H Wilkinson16:14, 9 July 2007 (UTC)reply
Yeah, I would have reverted it, but I'd have been blocked because someone would decide I'd broken 3RR. Would you mind?--
Rambutan (
talk)
16:17, 9 July 2007 (UTC)reply
I've rewritten it to reflect what we can properly source at the moment. With any luck, the box set release will contain relevant data.
Mark H Wilkinson16:33, 9 July 2007 (UTC)reply
In that case, if no one gives it a listen tonight, I'll do so tomorrow morning (can't do it tonight; my connection's too slow around this point).
Mark H Wilkinson21:18, 9 July 2007 (UTC)reply
You hear Anthony Ainley laughing, and you hear... there, that's Roger Delgado, who's speaking in I think The Dæmons!
— Phil Collinson, 36:55 to 37:01, "Utopia" commentary
The quotes, "Destroy him!", and "Then you will give your power to me!", are indeed from The Dæmons, episode five, when the Master is ordering Azal to kill the Doctor. Will(
talk)23:31, 9 July 2007 (UTC)reply
It isn't mentioned in the article (and perhaps it shouldn't be since it smacks of OR) but the Master was supposed to have reached the end of his regeneration cycle before the events of The Deadly Assassin, thus the need for him to take over of Tremas' body after failing to gain the Doctor's in The Keeper of Traken. The end of this marvelous (sorry POV I know) episode quite clearly shows him regenerating. Now I don't have access to much of the info that is currently available to you UK wikipedians and it is two months until we will get to hear the commentaries on the DVD. So I have to assume that (like the Doctor's regen from the eighth to the ninth) an untelevised (and unwritten?) tale in which the Master regained a new regen cycle (like the one that was referred to in The Five Doctors) must have occured. Has there been any comment on the net or in Doctor Who Monthly? Any info you can add will be appreciated and thanks for your time.
MarnetteD |
Talk22:43, 22 September 2007 (UTC)reply
I just realized that, since I haven't seen the next two episodes of this continuing story, that this might be explained in one of them so please don't feel the need to post a spoiler here. If, after the next two weeks, it is still left unclear I may come back and ask you again. Cheers to all.
MarnetteD |
Talk22:50, 22 September 2007 (UTC)reply
Since Wikipedia has become an open forum for spoilers since the abandonment of spoiler tags, it probably does no harm to mention in this thread that an answer does sort of appear in The Sound of Drums, though it's more an implication than anything else.
68.146.41.23202:39, 10 October 2007 (UTC)reply
Japanese keyboard
I noticed that a computer keyboard used had
hiragana on them, as well as english letters, just thought this might be worth noting as I don't remember any references to any real languages set this far in the future (50trillion years wasnt it?) before (but I may be wrong).--
211.28.212.24013:05, 26 September 2007 (UTC)reply
Eric Roberts reference
I read a review that claimed Eric Roberts' voice (from his portrayal of the Master in the 1996 film) can also be heard during the same sequence where we hear Ainley and Delgado. Can anyone confirm this? It's certainly worth noting, not the least of which because it would be the second concrete bit of evidence (after the on-screen appearance of the Eighth Doctor's image in Human Nature) that the TVM is indeed being treated as canon by the revived series, a topic still of much debate. PS. I just found an uncited reference to this very thing in the Wikipedia article on the
Eighth Doctor. If a source is available for this information, it should be added to that article, too.
68.146.41.23202:41, 10 October 2007 (UTC)reply
GA review
I've quick-failed this because it's in no way complete - it misses out a lot of production and reception. Some tips before renominating:
Listen to the commentary.
Wait for Shannon to do his production account (a couple of weeks).
When Martha rushes to inform the Doctor about Yana's fob watch, she starts with, "Think what the Face of Boe said..." Jack (aka Face of Boe) looks at Martha. She continues, "...his dying words..." Jack looks at the Doctor, then stares at the floor. She never completes because the rocket starts to take off shortly thereafter.
Apparently, Jack was paying attention to what Martha was trying to say, which is why his question to the Doctor, "Will I ever be able to die?" seems out of place in Season 3's last episode, 'Last Of The Time Lords'.
Buuuuuuut it has never been confirmed that Jack actually IS the Face of Boe. The writer himself said it was for more of an in-joke and that he'd never confirm or deny it, mainly because it would ruin the premise.
82.32.11.95 (
talk)
22:54, 2 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Three-parter revisited
I think that Tim was right to
remove the bald assertion that this is a three-part story. There is conflicting evidence from reliable sources; on the one hand, you've got Totally Doctor Who and the DWM poll saying it is a three-parter, on the other hand you've got the writer and executive producer saying that it's not. I think that Tim's wording was appropriately neutral for the introduction. It would even be worthwhile for the article to go into the matter in a bit more depth later on — I'll take a look at Davies' DWM column and see what I can put together. —
Josiah Rowe (
talk •
contribs)
16:03, 20 April 2009 (UTC)reply
Mind you, Davies did say it was simply his opinion and he does seem to flipflop on it, or has a soft opinion of it (saying in the same column that he was okay with it being advertised as #200). Sceptre(
talk)
True — that's why I put the "determination is arbitrary" bit in and the quotation in the footnote. I just think there's room for a bit of nuance on this. —
Josiah Rowe (
talk •
contribs)
16:47, 20 April 2009 (UTC)reply
"The truth behind the existence of 'Utopia' and the fate of the humans seen in this episode is revealed in "Last of the Time Lords"."
Even though I've seen the episode, I can't recall what the 'truth' is. I think that some people who read this sentence may also wonder this vague allusion is, so could someone include what the truth is?
82.32.11.95 (
talk)
15:03, 16 April 2012 (UTC)reply
Actually, the "truth" is revealed in this episode when the Master deactivates the fake transmissions. So I just cut that part out.
DonQuixote (
talk)
15:14, 16 April 2012 (UTC)reply
Continuity of the Master hearing the drums needed.
There should be some continuity about the Master hearing the sound of drums. I have not seen very many of the Classic Doctor Who episodes featuring the Master during the Pertwee era, so I don't have the information. I did read a lot of the books though, and I don't remember any references to this. However, there IS a reference to him hearing them in the book "Decalog" in the short story "The Duke of Dominoes" by Marc Platt, published in 1994, nine years before the new series started airing. The reference is made in passing, as a reminder of something the reader should already know, so I am assuming there are more references to it in either previous episodes, audio stories, or novels. If someone has information and citations for it, please add them.
74.139.197.36 (
talk)
01:01, 19 October 2014 (UTC)reply
External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on
Utopia (Doctor Who). Please take a moment to review
my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit
this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes: