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Are there any sources for the current title of the article? I haven't found any publications referring to the incident as the "Toruń Blood tribunal". I do not have the book personally, but Davies refers to the city as "Thorn" in God's Playground. [1] Also, the capitalization should be made consistent (with the current phrasing, either Toruń Blood Tribunal or Toruń blood tribunal). Olessi 19:17, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, Norman Davies lists 1724 Tumult of Thorn as an entry in a time line. He points out that one single incident .. could brand the name of Thorn forever with the mark of Catholic fanatism, yet continues to use the belittling "Tumult of Thorn" (which mirrors the Polish Tumult Toruński) while struggling with German grammar: "Thus ended the 'Tumult of Thorn', der Thorner Blutbad. In Polish history books, it rarely finds mention. In Protestant Europe, and particularly in England, it was the sole event for which the name of Copernicus's birthplace was remembered. Others, like EB1911, call the executions beheading the burgomaster and nine other leading Protestant citizens, an act of oppression which is known as the "blood-bath of Thorn.". This naming [2], also as Thorn blood-bath, or +1724 +massacre +Thorn seems to be the most common, even though bloody assizes and +1724 +tribunal +Thorn show up also.
In short: Blood Bath of Thorn or blood-bath of Thorn is the best name, thus I'll move to the spelling chosen by EB1911. After I had created the article, I moved Thorn Blood tribunal to Toruń Blood tribunal over redirect: Thorn misleading here after realizing that thorn in connection with blood will likely be misunderstood.-- Matthead discuß! O 18:09, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Blood Tribunal of Toruń → Execution at Thorn — the previous titles were:
The title "Execution at Thorn" has 27 Google book hits. It also describes the event in a more neutral and real way than "Blood-bath of Thorn". Sciurinæ 18:04, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Yet another name? Contemporary reports from the 1720s indeed use the proposed form, as well as Thorn, not Toruń, which was virually unknown in 18th century publications. Other languages like Dutch and French ("la sanglante tragedie de Thorn", "Thorn affligée: ou, relation de ce qui s'est passe dans cette ville") use also Thorn. As Execution (disambiguation) may be misunderstood, "Executions at Thorn" would make clear that capital punishment for several people is meant. -- Matthead discuß! O 21:14, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
"I do object to Molobo's suggestion of "Tumult of Torun", however, as it is simply not a phrasing used in English" [15] "The "Torun tumult" was caused by a street fight between the Jesuit College and the Protestant Grammar School and was a bloody finale to a long-lasting " Is the above sentence in some non-English language? Can Olessi tell us what kind of language is the one above? I always thought I knew English and German, now it seems I know also some other language, if the one above is not English and I can understand it. -- Molobo 15:51, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
"All English publications show so." Indeed. [16] [17] Olessi 01:55, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Tumult is an english word, and the events are described as such.-- Molobo 09:08, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tumult 2. a general outbreak, riot, uprising, or other disorder: The tumult moved toward the embassy. Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
"Because your suggested phrasing has not been used in English" [20] "The "Torun tumult" was caused by a street fight between the Jesuit College and the Protestant Grammar School and was a bloody finale to a long-lasting " Is the above sentence in some non-English language ? -- Molobo 15:51, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Molobo suggested that the phrase "Tumult of Torun" should be the title; I pointed out that the phrase is not in English usage, and thus should not be considered for the article's title. Molobo then responded with one book by Alicja Deck-Partyka (2006) using the phrase "Torun tumult". In comparison, "Tumult of Thorn" has been used by Norman Davies (2005) [21] (a specialist of Polish history) and Karin Friedrich (a specialist on Royal Prussia) (2000) [22] . Other texts using it include The New Cambridge History (1957) [23] , The Making of Modern Europe (2003) [24], and Poland's Last King and English Culture (1998) [25].
Regardless of the political relationship of the city in 1724, articles should be titled according to how they are most commonly referred to in English. From WP:NCCN, "Wikipedia is not a place to advocate a title change in order to reflect recent scholarship. The articles themselves reflect recent scholarship but the titles should represent common usage." I have not seen any evidence yet that "Torun" is the preferred spelling in English publications regarding the historical event, let alone "Tumult of Torun". On the contrary, recent publications in English have continued to use the historical terminology. Olessi 18:45, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
The historical terminology is Torun tumult. The English publications only show how the event was called in German publications not in english ones. The city is Torun and its absurd to name it in Lithuanian, Russian, Chinese or German language-- Molobo 18:55, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
This discussion is now slated for closure over at Wikipedia:Requested moves#Backlog; there's clearly no support for the present title, but opinion seems to be divided between two favourites, "Executions at Thorn" and "Tumult of Thorn". So perhaps if the participants here would like to decide on which of these two choices would be the best? -- bainer ( talk) 14:03, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Where and when something took place is irrelevant for the titling of the article. What is important is how it is most commonly referred to in English. "Tumult of Thorn" is the phrasing used by several English language publications from the last ten years, including a well-regarded book by Norman Davies. "Executions at Thorn" and "Execution at Thorn" are traditional phrasings for the event, but is mostly restricted to pre-1900. "Blood-bath of Thorn" has also been used, but again is more restricted to pre-1950. Regardless, practically all English publications, including recent ones, have included Thorn in the phrasing, not Toruń. Titling the article under "Toruń", the current name of the city, seems like original research to me when English publications, regardless of publication date, do not use such terminology for the historical event. Olessi 19:03, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Sound argumentation. "Tumult of Thorn" should be its name. Sciurinæ 12:57, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Look I'm not into creating "History as seen by Poles" here, but we should also avoid "History as seen by Anglo-Saxons" as well. Popularity of the German name should not divert us from the fact, that Toruń was a Polish city at the time, the whole thing happened in Poland to Polish citizens and the CORRECT name therefore is "Toruń". Space Cadet 16:45, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Now, regarding Côte d'Ivoire, we had a discussion at the talk page there, and it was long and involved many Wikipedians, and we looked at quite a bit of research, and we decided that "Côte d'Ivoire" really is what the country is called in the majority of English language sources. If you don't believe me, you can go there and look at the talk page archives. If you disagree with the decision, you may question it there. However, it remains a fact that we chose the title "Côte d'Ivoire" because we decided it was more common in written English sources, not because we decided it was more correct. We were following WP:COMMONNAME as well as we could. Incidentally, I have met Americans, Europeans, and Africans who call the country "Côte d'Ivoire".
Many people may call caterpillars worms (and yes, I've lived for years each in Texas, New Mexico, Oregon and Washington, talking about bugs regularly with other Americans), but the most common English name for the larval form of a butterfly remains " caterpillar". If caterpillars were more commonly referred to in sources as "worms", then we'd have to move the article. I had taken your meaning to be that people think of insects in general as "worms", which is generally not the case. I concede that grubs and caterpillars are often informally referred to as "worms", although they're also often informally referred to as "grubs" and "caterpillars".
I'm sorry I failed to reply regarding " Royal Prussia". It's just that I don't know anything about it. Is the province generally called "Royal Prussia" in English-language sources? If so, then we've got it at the right title.
I'm not sure whether you're disagreeing as to what WP:COMMONNAME says, or as to whether it should apply in this case. It's true that it is a guideline, but the same principle is contained in our naming policy under the header "Use common names of persons and things". The idea is not that we try to replicate every error made in casual usage, but that we try to follow the lead of other English-language sources. Perhaps I should have been clearer: when I mention "the form that more readers will recognize," I mean to base that determination on other English-language sources. I hope I've been clearer this time.
In a way, this is all beside the point. Our policy would have us title this article according to its most common name in other English-language sources, but we don't have to do what the policy says. Per IAR, we get to form a consensus about this article. The reason I dropped by your talk page to ask why you moved this page is this: There had just been a discussion over moving the page, and it appeared that a decision had been made to move to " Tumult of Thorn". I was surprised by your move, because I hadn't seen the discussion leading up to it, nor seen a hint on this talk page as to where that discussion took place. I just thought it would be appropriate for you to comment here regarding why you changed the name, and where people could find the "vote" that you cited in your edit summary. It seems I failed to communicate that very effectively, and instead came across as somehow attacking you. Again, I apologize for that. - GTBacchus( talk) 01:39, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Sure: "I'll clarify with pleasure, here is a copy of the vote:
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As you can see in article #5 in all places that share a history between Germany and Poland, the first reference of one name in an article should also include a reference to other names, e.g. Danzig (now Gdańsk, Poland) or Gdańsk (Danzig). Therefore: History of Gdańsk (Danzig), Teutonic Takeover of Danzig (Gdańsk) and Tumult of Thorn (Toruń). "
Now if you notice the newest version is the most peaceful one, nobody has any objections and everyone seems to be perfectly happy. Space Cadet 22:10, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
If someone hadn't beat me to it, I would just have undone the move "Tumult of Thorn" to "Blood Tribunal of Toruń", a name which has no support whatsoever. Matthead has experimented with several names and introduced "Toruń" ( [26]). Olessi, while expressing disapproval of just that introduction on the talk page ( [27]), changed it to improve grammar. When Matthead's next experiment included "Thorn" again, suddenly it was reverted supposedly because it had to have been discussed, as if the others had been (well, "Blood Tribunal of Toruń" had: as I said, it had been opposed, so actually "Thorn Blood tribunal", the first name, would be the only choice for move). Space Cadet and Tulkolahten, too, copied Piotrus's strategy. I thought a move request was reasonable there but had underestimated the low participation of a third (English) party. At least, Olessi found a perfect name adopting Molobo's "Tumult of" - "Tumult of Thorn" - which concedes as much to the Polish fraction as is reasonable (Tumult of) and at the same time enjoys most new Google book hits, ie most legitimacy - perfect. Since this is not a vote but a survey, Molobo has little right to complain about the admin decision to move it as a result of the discussion. Please discuss further moves and do not revert to an undiscussed (or opposed), ridiculous and original "Blood Tribunal of Toruń". Sciurinæ 23:35, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
You're still not addressing my point: Why would an event that happened in Poland, to Polish citizens have a German name in the title of the article? Space Cadet 23:49, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
I believe that Thorn people spoke German. I don't know what was the language of the tribunal - Polish or Latin. Xx236 08:41, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Really, putting a comment on Poles by Voltaire is not neutral, at least without context. He desired to murder for Catherine, and called for extermination of Polish people. [28] -- Molobo 20:41, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
BTW the article says:"Britain - There continued to be occasional prosecutions under the Witchcraft Act in the 19th and 20th century". Xx236 14:41, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Many protestant sources marginalize the riots (See the article:The Blood Tribunal of Toruń refers to the execution). Xx236 15:06, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
- As a descendant of Jacob Heinrich Zernecke I know for sure he did not convert to cathlicism. After being free he left Thorn and went to Danzig and he has written about the time in prison. It is true that a Jesuit priest promised his life would be saved if he would convert, but he refused and thought he would be beheaded like the others. I know the Zernecke family paid an amount of money to set him free and maybe this helped. King August gave him grace and it is said that he regretted to have signed the death penalties (he had been protestant before becoming king of Poland) but I don't know this for sure. In fact one of the others converted and was spared, but it was not Zernecke. (this was removed- posting it here) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.133.77.60 ( talk) 18:53, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
Re this: [29]. The "citation" (not really) is just to a google book search [30], with the vast majority of hits being 19th century propaganda/nationalist sources (plus the way outdated 1911 EB). There's no indication that this term "bloodbath" term - which raises obvious POV flags - is commonly used in modern sources. Since it does appear to be an archaic term for the event I think it's fine if it's older "name" is included in the article somewhere, but it should not be included, bolded, in the first sentence as an alternative title, since few, if any, modern works use that phraseology.
Also, generally, it's a good idea to discuss reverts on talk first. Good practice. Volunteer Marek 00:58, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
Revisiting this issue, the only two modern sources which use the term either use scare quotes or refer to it as the "so-called Bloodbath". Both are indicating that this was a term used in 19th century (and earlier) nationalist propaganda. As such, including this highly POV version in the lede is obviously UNDUE. It is enough that the propaganda term is mentioned somewhere in the article. Removing.VolunteerMarek 22:56, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
Not to mention that this propaganda name was pushed by a user who's also got banned from this topic area. Red flags all over the place.VolunteerMarek 22:58, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
The article says Blood-Bath of Thorn. Source 1 - 'blood-bath of Thorn', source 2 - the so-called blood bath of Thorn. It's not exactly the same. Xx236 ( talk) 10:14, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
The German article is de:Thorner Blutgericht. It uses one source which says that the "Blut" (English Blood) names were used in protestant propaganda and that standard German name is Thorner Tumult. I understand that British or WASP editors prefer protestant propaganda, but Wikipedia isn't WASP propaganda, is it? Xx236 ( talk) 10:38, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
Summarizing not also called Blood-Bath of Thorn but called by protestant propaganda Blood-Bath of Thorn. Xx236 ( talk) 10:47, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
<-- Davies also uses scare quotes with the term, and discusses it explicitly in the context of an effort by "Prussians and Russians to inflame the issue of the religious 'dissidents'". Like the other two authors, he is referring to the name given to the event by archaic and outdated propaganda.
Again, I think the term should appear in the article, and it should be discussed in its proper context. But to push an obviously POV term - and "obviously" in the sense that it was explicitly constructed for propaganda purposes - into the lede is, well, POV.VolunteerMarek 06:47, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
The quoted source was written in 1979, Poland has changed since that time. Please remeber that Germans exterminated Polish historians, later started the war against the SU, lost it and caused Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe, during which academic research was controlled by the Communists. Xx236 ( talk) 12:43, 7 December 2012 (UTC) Bibliography from pl:Tumult toruński
Xx236 ( talk) 12:48, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
During ages Germans and Russians created the image of dirty and primitive Poles. Since that time Germans and Soviets murdered tens of millions, destroied tens of thousands of churches. But Poles are still the bad guys, and Western writers finnaced by Russian and Prussian rulers are authorities since Voltaire to Aragon.
I doubt that any US editor quotes here 19th century stories about primitive Black slaves, but protestant opinions about Poles are more important than historical context of religious persecutions in Europe of that time. Xx236 ( talk) 12:57, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
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