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"From Constantinople, the True Cross was broken up, and the pieces miraculously multiplied": Sorry to ask this stupid question, but: is this irony by the contributor of the sentence, irony of contempories of the 'multiplication', or did people then actually believe that? Simon A. 11:19, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
"We will not give in detail the history of other relics of the Cross (see the works of Gretser and the articles of Kraus and Bäumer quoted in the bibliography). The work of Rohault de Fleury, "Mémoire sur les instruments de la Passion" (Paris, 1870), deserves more prolonged attention; its author has sought out with great care and learning all the relics of the True Cross, drawn up a catalogue of them, and, thanks to this labour, he has succeeded in showing that, in spite of what various Protestant or Rationalistic authors have pretended, the fragments of the Cross brought together again would not only not "be comparable in bulk to a battleship", but would not reach one-third that of a cross which has been supposed to have been three or four metres in height, with transverse branch of two metres (see above; under I), proportions not at all abnormal (op. cit., 97-179). Here is the the calculation of this savant: Supposing the Cross to have been of pine-wood, as is believed by the savants who have made a special study of the subject, and giving it a weight of about seventy-five kilograms, we find that the volume of this cross was 178,000,000 cubic millimetres. Now the total known volume of the True Cross, according to the finding of M. Rohault de Fleury, amounts to above 4,000 000 cubic millimetres, allowing the missing part to be as big as we will, the lost parts or the parts the existence of which has been overlooked, we still find ourselves far short of 178,000,000 cubic millimetres, which should make up the True Cross."
So the bit about relics being multiplied needs to be put down as alleged, pending better evidence.-- Samuel J. Howard 02:51, Jun 29, 2004 (UTC)
Really? I thought that pilgrims brought them from the Holy Land. I suppose they bought them from established merchants. -- Error 00:42, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
"Helena is known to have brought fragments back to Constantinople for veneration in approximately 327." Whenever you read the phrase "is known to" it's wise always to doubt what follows. More accurate details of the career of the True Cross are in the entry now, but it still needs direct quotes from 4th century sources. Wetman 18:06, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
For the story of the discovery of the True Cross given in the second paragraph, whose view is that? The third paragraph mentions the traditional Christian view, identifying it as such, so it would be good to identify the holders of the other view. This would be in accordance with non-POV guidelines. One-dimensional Tangent 04:38, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Man, I don't know when this article got so crazy. I'm gonna work on a new NPOV sourced rewrite. Pending that, I'm putting a {{totallydisputed}} flag on it. New article also needs to distinguish between various POV "legends" and myths of and historical accounts.-- Samuel J. Howard 03:04, Sep 22, 2004 (UTC)
I frankly don't see a lot of editorializing; rather, the article is poorly constructed and generally poorly written. Someone needs to do a thorough rewrite.
Helena is not mentioned in Dream of the Rood. In the text of the poem, the dreamer is the poet, dreaming that the cross (rood) is speaking to him, telling him its story. The focus is on the crucifixion, not the finding, which is treated rather summarily:
I'm going to change this to a literary reference to the veneration of the cross, but it has no historical value as an alternate version of the finding of the cross. JHCC 18:54, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The reader of Wikipedia may be looking for a more balanced view that we are willing to offer. Prof. Drijvers' assessment is on the web at the well-respected [ http://www.roman-emperors.org/helena.htm De Imperatoribus Romanum website, http://www.roman-emperors.org/helena.htm}. His last paragraph, in its entirety:
"Her greatest fame Helena acquired by an act for which she was probably not responsible, i.e. the finding of the True Cross. Her presence in Jerusalem and the description Eusebius presented of her stay in the Holy Land led ultimately to connecting Helena with the discovery of the Cross. Remains of the Cross were already venerated in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem at the end of the 340s as is clear from sermons of Cyril, bishop of Jerusalem (Cat. 4.10, 10.19, 13.4 PG 33, 467ff, 685-687, 777). After 7 May 351, Cyril wrote the Emperor Constantius II that the Cross was discovered during the reign of Constantine I; the bishop gives no indication who discovered the rel ic (Ep. ad Const., 3 PG 33, 1168B). The Emperor Julian believed in the discovery of the relic; he rebukes Christians for worshipping the object (Contra Gal. 194C). The legend of Helena's discovery of the Cross originated in Jerusal em in the second half of the fourth century and rapidly spread over the whole empire. Three versions of the legend came into existence in Late Antiquity: the Helena legend, the Protonike legend and the Judas Kyriakos legend. The Helena legend, which was known in Greek and Latin, is found in: Rufinus (Hist. Eccl., 10.7-8), Socrates (Hist. Eccl. 1.17 PG 67, 117ff), Sozomen (Hist., Eccl. 2.1-2) Theodoretus (Hist. Eccl.. 1.18), Ambrose (De obitu Theod., 40-49), Paulinus of Nola (Epist., 31.4-5), and Sulpicius Severus (Chron. 2.22-34). The Protonike legend was only known in Syriac (and later on in Armenian) and was part of the Edessene Doctrina Addai but also circulated independently in the Syriac-speaking regions. In this version of the legend Helena's role is taken over by the fictitious first-century empress Protonike. The Judas Kyriakos legend originated in Greek, but became also known in Latin and Syriac and later on in many vernacular languages. This version relates how Helena discovered the Cross with the help of the Jew Judas, who later converted and received the name Kyriakos. It became the most popular version of the three, probably because of its anti-Judaism."
I shll take this entry off my watchlist now. User:Wetman 08:20, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Thanks to everyone who worked on this, it's looking very nice now.-- Samuel J. Howard 02:01, Sep 24, 2004 (UTC)
In the last paragraph of the chapter "Dispersal of relics of the True Cross" it says "Other scientific study of the extant relics". First of all, that should be singular or plural, not the current confused mix, but more important a reference to the source for this statement is needed. User:boxed 15:05, 5 Jul 2006 (CET)
It mentions that many fragments of the true cross are probably fakes, but it fails to mention that the alleged true cross itself may well be fake - a kind of important omission which should be corrected (and sourced). Titanium Dragon 10:01, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree. This article is catergorised under Christian Legend and Folklore, but the introduction certainly does not make this clear. I came here via a link from a query on the reference desk which was used to indicate that this page was a factual record rather than a faith based tradition. Mighty Antar 00:49, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
The article says "It is possible that many of the extant pieces of the True Cross are forgeries, created by travelling merchants in the Middle Ages, during which period a thriving trade in manufactured relics existed." I don't understand the logic of this sentence. If they are forgeries, they aren't pieces of the True Cross, right? So how can many of the extant pieces of the True Cross be forgeries? Should it be: "many of the alleged extant pieces..."? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.150.167.238 ( talk) 14:46, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
I really can't understand the second comment here, which supports the first. The introduction was completely rewritten on Jan 20 2007, (four days before the comment) and since that date it has said clearly that the article relates the records, traditions and legends pertaining to the true cross.
It also makes it clear that the fragments of the cross and the various records/traditions are accepted by some Christians and not accepted by others.
The article does not claim to be a "factual record" of an object the present existence of which is shrouded in time and in the mysteries and miracles of Faith.
What this article does is attempt to present a "factual record" of the Faith, the several early records, the legends and the continuing traditions pertaining to that object, the True Cross.
As for whether or not the "original" True Cross was a fake-
The article presents the old records. The old records don't say "Maybe what St Helena found was a fake". So the article doesn't need to say "What St Helena found may have been a fake." What the article does say is that not everybody accepts the records as true.
If there was a written record that suggested St Helena had been tricked, then that info could and probably would be presented here along with the rest of the info.
-- Amandajm 09:55, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
This article barely mention the conflict between Bizantine and Persian Empire for the True Cross posession, and I didn't find an article of that war. I think is important someone create it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.226.217.121 ( talk) 14:18, 29 January 2007 (UTC).
The true True Cross probably disintegrated centuries ago —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.253.169.203 ( talk) 21:30, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
I presume that this discussion means few or no putative fragments have been carbon dated? There is significant variation in the accuracy of this method, I believe related to cosmic-ray variations, in turn due to variations in solar activity, but I think the accuracy in various historical periods is pretty well known, and 2000 years ago the uncertainty is generally considerably better than 200 years. The case of the Shroud of Turin was dated in 1988, so at least the basic calibration of carbon dating from the time should be available. I assume there must be great reluctance on the part of the keepers to submit their fragments for dating (no doubt partly due to a natural, maybe semi-conscious, reluctance to have them discredited) but if any significant subset of the fragments turns out to be of pre-Constantine age, that would be very interesting, and if any are of closely correct age, that would seem almost miraculous in itself given the reality of the perils of passage down 2000 years of history. Thus if there is any scholarly work in this area, it would be very valuable to find and report it in the article. Thanks. Wwheaton ( talk) 19:51, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
The term "the True Cross" is never used in the Gospels, or Epistles to describe the cross on which Jesus died. Neither is the term used in liturgy, hymns or anything else of that nature. It is sufficient to say that Jesus died on "the cross", the term meaning the mode of execution, not the object. (like "died on the scaffold", or died in "the electric chair".) The Bible gives no significance to the physical object itself.
The term "True Cross" only has a function in describing the object (traditionally)found and proven by St Helena. The "True Cross" found and proved in the 4th century, the stories about it, and the fragments that either are, or are said to be, part of what St Helena found, are the subject of this article.
They and the Biblical cross may be one and the same thing. They may not. Most Protestants do not give credit to the story of the "True Cross" or venerate its fragments. They do accept that Jesus died on "a cross".
-- Amandajm 14:58, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
The lead image is unneccessarily vague, being a closeup of Jesus and showing nothing of the actual cross. Perhaps it's a great work with historical or artistic significance, but it's not at all illustrative of the subject of this article. -- Boradis 22:18, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
It is more narrative. I hope it meets with everyone's approval! -- Amandajm 10:55, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I reverted simplifications by an unnamed editor that had the effect of changing a very precisely worded section. The editor obviously did not understand that there are 2 separate tradition described here. The first is the tradition of the "Early Christian Chuurch". The second is the "Medieval tradition" or rather, "traditions" which differ between the Catholic and Orthodox churches. This information had been combined in a sort of blanket statement.
With regards to the acceptance of the story of the True Cross in the Anglican Communion- St Helen is honoured in the Anglican Communion as an early saint and as one who served in faith by charitable actions. There are a number of churches and hospitals in the Anglican Communion which are dedicated to St Helen. She is said to have been British, and the daughter of King Coel of Colchester. While her symbol of the cross and nails are maintained, the story of her discovery of the "True Cross" is regarded as legend and does not have general acceptance in the Anglican Communion.
Amandajm ( talk) 10:00, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Constantine was not Christian. He was politically helped by christians, and when he could, he recognised their rights to profess their religion, but there is no evidence that he was a christian itself. Becoming a saint for the Easthern Orthodox Church doesn't change the fact that he didn't professed the religion. He was never seen praying to God and there is no evidence of his baptism (something necessary to be a Christian). Jmgl2005 ( talk) 12:28, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Having just returned from Paris, I came across this article. The photo gallery section contains three photos from Notre Dame described as reliquaries of the true cross and a nail of the crucifixion. However, they are photos of two different reliquaries. I can verify that the first reliquary (in the first two pictures) is at Notre Dame. (I don't recall seeing the second, however, I could easily have missed it.)
Can anyone sort out the confusion?
58.38.80.44 ( talk) 05:35, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
The story in The Golden Legend makes it clear that the tree from which the cross was made was the tree of knowledge, NOT the tree of life, as it explicitly says "the cross by which we be saved came of the tree by which we were DAMNED". Here is the actual passage to read for yourselves.
"The holy cross was found two hundred years after the resurrection of our Lord. It is read in the gospel of Nicodemus that, when Adam waxed sick, Seth his son went to the gate of Paradise terrestrial for to get the oil of mercy for to anoint withal his father's body. Then appeared to him S. Michael the angel, and said to him: Travail not thou in vain for this oil, for thou mayst not have it till five thousand and five hundred years be past, how be it that from Adam unto the passion of our Lord were but five thousand one hundred and thirtythree years. In another place it is read that the angel brought him a branch, and commanded him to plant it the Mount of Lebanon. Yet find we in another place that he gave to him of the tree that Adam ate of, and said to him that when that bare fruit he should be guerished and all whole. When Seth came again he found his father dead and planted this tree upon his grave, and it endured there unto the time of Solomon. And because he saw that it was fair, he did do hew it down and set it in his house named Saltus. And when the Queen of Sheba came to visit Solomon, she worshipped this tree, because she said the Saviour of all the world should be hanged thereon, by whom the realm of the Jews shall be defaced and cease. Solomon for this cause made it to be taken up and dolven deep in the ground. Now it happed after, that they of Jerusalem did do make a great pit for a piscine, whereas the ministers of the temple should wash their beasts that they should sacrifice, and there found this tree, and this piscine had such virtue that the angels descended and moved the water, and the first sick man that descended into the water, after the moving, was made whole of whatsoever sickness he was sick of. And when the time approached of the passion of our Lord, this tree arose out of the water, and floated above the water, and of this piece of timber made the Jews the cross of our Lord. Then, after this history, the cross by which we be saved came of the tree by which we were damned, and the water of that piscine had not his virtue only of the angel but of the tree."
The un-named editor who keeps making this change makes the mistake of presuming that it is generally accepted that there were two trees in the graden of Eden, the Tree of Knowledge and the Tree of Life, rather than on single tree referred to alternately by both names.
The Genesis account is a bit of a mish-mash. It has been assembled from two versions of the Downfall Legend, and some ancient writer has tried to meld them, not entirely successfully. The same occurs in other parts of the Old Testament, notably Noh's Ark, where the simple account of two animals of each kind has been mixed with a later version stressing clean and unclean, and expanding the number to seven for the clean beasts... a more Pharisaical version.
Voragine does not indicate anywhere in this account that there were two trees, and that Seth asked for oil of one but was given seed of another. The only indication is that he asked for oil but was given a seed, or, as Voragine states, in a different version of the legend he was given a branch.
Your edits have stated in a very definite manner something of which there is no such certainty. However, I will delete reference to the "Tree of Life" in that instance.
I must point out that while you claim the information is "not referenced", the paragraph commeneces by stating that the account comes from Voragine and "The Golden Legend".
Amandajm ( talk) 13:47, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Amandjam keeps making the mistake of presuming, without citing any sources, that it there is one single tree referred to by alternate names. He is making a claim for which he has presented no evidence so far, and it is the one who makes the claim which bears the burden of proof. I made the claim it was the Tree of Knowledge, and I provided the evidence- the Bible itself which declares that it was. And simply placing your assertion as a footnote is not 'citing a source'. And simply waving your hand in a generalized manner of "the account comes from Voragine and "The Golden Legend". Cite WHERE. That is just as bad as claiming "the Bible says so". Cite WHERE so it can be verified. This is not a difficult task. And the Chapter you tried to cite, the very chapter I cited, does NOT say anything about this alleged "one tree by two names" tradition that you keep asserting, and thus fails you and is no citation at all. Your stance goes against the evidence thus far presented, and provides no evidence of it's own. It will not be presumed true nor given any merit until evidence is presented, and I will continue to revert the passage back to the version that DOES provide evidence for as long as you continue to make assertions withOUT evidence. Vograine DOES indicate that there were two trees by the very fact that he is making reference to the Genesis story, and Genesis DOES explicity state there were TWO trees. And trying to support an uncited assertion with yet ANOTHER uncited assertion(...mish-mash) is even worse, now you have simply compounded your problem and doubled your burden of proof. You now have added another assertion for which you must cite a source for verification if it is to have any merit. And yet, you did not cite a thing. Bottom line, cite sources, like I did, and like Wikipedia requires, or your bald assertions will continue to be edited out, as they should be. Cite a source, and you will no longer have a problem.
I state it in a definitive manner, because the book of Genesis IS definitive about there being two trees, and Genesis IS an obvious basis for this legend, afterall, why assume that the Seth referred to in this legend is the same Seth as in Genesis? Why not the Seth of the Egyptian pantheon? Because of Occam's razor, that's why.
And even if this were a cloudy area(which it isn't, since Genesis makes it definitive), cloudy areas in the available evidence for a point of view does NOT merit asserting an opposing view that is COMPETELY without evidence. As I said, what is being required of you is not asking too much or being unfair, it is a simple thing, just present evidence, just cite a source. That's it. NOT citing yourself as a footnote.
And I absolutely agree, it is indeed not acceptable conduct on Wikipedia to refer to another editor as "a liar" simply because you disagree with their edit. And I have never done this. Not to you. Not to anyone. I referred to you as a liar not because I disagree with your edit, but because you LIED. Your statement "It is clear that Tree of Life is meant here, by the context." was a lie, therefore you are a liar. Now whether you lied out of ignorance or intent is of no concern to me. Your statement was still false, and even you have conceded as much here- "...something of which there is no such certainty. However, I will delete reference to the "Tree of Life" in that instance".
By stating "the tree that Adam ate of", Vograine DOES indicate there where two trees, for one thing, if Adam had already eaten of the Tree of Life, he wouldn't very well be dying now would he? And Vograine goes on to write in the Assumption of Mary that "For God said: Lest peradventure the first form of man, that is to wit Adam, put forth his hand, and take of the tree of life, and live perdurably", thus within Vograine's own work, there is admission that Adam did NOT eat from the Tree of Life, thus by default, "the tree that Adam ate of" has to be ANOTHER tree besides the Tree of Life since Vograine writes that Adam never ate of it because God forbade him lest it make him immortal.
So it's not even that I outright DISAGREE with you, it is simply that claims have the burden of proof. And you have provided none. Which is a shame, because your assertion interests me, I would like to read about it, if it exists, but you have provided nothing to read. No citation at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.18.171.224 ( talk) 18:10, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Wow, employ logic.
"lie... 3. an inaccurate or false statement."
-
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lie
^That's what we call citing a source. Amandajm is a liar. And now, so are you. As I pointed out already, lying from intent or ignorance(or being mistaken) is still a lie. And unlike the both of you, I have cited the source to support that statement, instead of making a bald assertion as you have.
And your assertions continue.
No, it is not entirely possible that the Genesis account is referring to the same tree. Eve explicitly states in 3:3 that if they even so much as touch the fruit of the tree of knowledge that they would die, yhwh explicitly states in 3:22 that the tree of life would make man live forever. By logic of your assertion(for which you have cited no source) that this is the same tree, the fruit of the tree would kill them if they touch it, yet the tree would make them live forever. ??? 3:6 explicitly says that Eve & Adam both touched and ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge, and yhwh concedes that they did in 3:22, confirming the serpent's words that if they ate of it, it would give them knowledge of good and evil like the gods, which yhwh affirms man did indeed gain this knowledge and became as one of the gods. In contrast to this fact that they ate the fruit of the tree knowledge, yhwh makes it obvious that they had NOT eaten from the tree of life by his words in 3:22 and sets up a barrier to keep them from ever eating from it in 3:23. So within verse 3:22, yhwh both confirms they DID eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge, yet he also affirms they did NOT eat of the TREE of life. Yet you claim it is possible that this is only one tree and thus they ate of tree yet did not yet eat of the tree. ??? Either they did or they didn't. And as I said, if they had eaten of the tree of life, they wouldn't very well have died now would they? They would have lived forever then, wouldn't they? And in 3:22, yhwh confirms they had not yet eaten of the TREE of life, he explicitly says "lest he... take also of the TREE(עֵץ `ets, as per BLB Lexicon) of life", not merely the FRUIT(פְּרִי pĕriy), but the TREE(עֵץ `ets), and I point this out because I am suspicious that another il-founded ad hoc assertion to the effect of "yeah, it's two different FRUITS, but ONE tree" may rear it's ugly illogical head. Following the logic of your assertion results in internal contradictions, they totally go against the law of succinctness, and the logic of the story itself, and the overwhelming majority consesus through out history, from the Septuagint [4], to the Talmud, to the early church fathers [5], and so on. If such an interpretation of Genesis 2 & 3 exists that contends there is only one tree being referred to in this story, then just cite a source, it's that simple. Until you present evidence that this is the case, it remains only your conjecture. And the passages I cited from the Golden Legend do make it clear that there are two trees being referred, as the passage from the Assumption of Mary, which is also supported by Genesis 3:22, affirms that Adam did NOT eat from the tree of life. So if we are to humor the notion that there's one tree, this creates a contradiction when Vograine wrote "the tree that Adam ate of". Either he ate of it or he didn't. Occam's razor- there's two trees. And I'm not ruling out the possibility that there is a fringe view somewhere that asserts, against the grain, that there's only one tree, I am simply asking for a source, and pointing out that this fringe view is not possible in either the Genesis account or Vograine's writings. It's just creates a huge contradiction and is unsupported. With such complete lack of citations, it is beginning to look more and more like these are just ad hoc attempts on the part of you & Amandajm fueled by obstinacy, rather than actual traditions. But that's of no matter, since as I have already clearly demonstrated, the one tree tradition is not a coherent possibility for the Genesis account or Vograine's work.
So what do we have... as per Vograine, the cross is made from a tree that was made from the very same tree "that Adam ate of" [Vol.3 Inv. of the Holy Cross], and also per Vograine, Adam never ate of the tree of life, since "...God said: Lest peradventure the first form of man, that is to wit Adam, put forth his hand, and take of the tree of life, and live perdurably"[Vol. 4 Assum. of Mary], and also because Adam died and was not immortal[Vol.3 Inv. of the Holy Cross]. Very definitive. I am beginning to wonder what your definition of definitive is and if you are simply being so obstinate because you are just scanning for an explicit phrase such as "TWO separate trees" in Vograine's text or in Genesis.
So what do we not have? Any citations from either you or Amandajm to support your assertions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.18.171.224 ( talk) 23:51, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Guys, I've been observing this back & forth, and decided to do some investigating myself, and it turns out, in the Golden Legend, there are TWO different legends about the tree which made the cross. One is from the passage already cited by you fellows earlier, "Of the invention of the Holy Cross, and first of this word invention." in Volume 3, which both of you are obviously already familiar with.
However, there was another one earlier in his work, in Volume 1, called "The Life of Adam". http://www.ccel.org/ccel/voragine/goldleg1.i_2.html
And in this version, it turns out that Amandajm was indeed correct when she contended that the tree which was turned into the cross was in fact from the seeds from the "tree of mercy", which seems to indicate the tree of life, not the tree of knowledge.
However, this version also confirms the objection by the anonymous user, IP 98.18.171.224, that the tree of life and the tree of knowledge are in fact TWO distinctly separate trees, as Voragine does state quite clearly "In the midst whereof be set TWO trees, that is the tree of life, and that other the tree of knowing good and evil"(emphasis mine).
So you are both right, and both wrong, because there are two different legends in The Golden Legend, and I have edited the relevant section in the article to reflect this. So can we all put this issue to rest now and just agree to disagree, please? Thank you. Sir Ragamuffin ( talk) 13:49, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
The article says that Charles Rohault de Fleury found that the fragments of the Cross brought together again would not reach one-third that of a of a cross.... The details of his calculations then suggest that less than two and a quarter percent of such a cross are accounted for. Clearly this is less than one third, but so much so that I suspect some mistake - or else I have misunderstood. Can somebody clarify this? Thanks -- catslash ( talk) 15:29, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
There's no mention *at all* of carbon dating in this article. Wood is almost the perfect material for this so I'm somewhat surprised nobody has written about these attempts given the controversial nature of these artifacts. 108.200.234.93 ( talk) 10:23, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
@ Contaldo80: I am open to discussion as to why you want to remove references to Helena being a saint. -- SleeplessNight12 ( talk) 01:33, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
Hello, and thanks to each of you for curating this page.
I noticed in the section "Syriac Traditions" a parenthetical phrase that was probably meant for a background comment: "(]chicken nugget stexts)". The person who entered this might want to consider a better location for it.
Again, thanks for all you do. Bobanello ( talk) 16:05, 14 September 2020 (UTC)Bobanello
There is a "Literature" entry (2.7) in the "Finding the True Cross" section. It cites one recent book, Eagle Ascending by Dan Whitfield, published June 14th, 2021. Not only would this be better suited to a "Popular Culture" entry later in the page, it also seems a little suspicious - this is a book with 27 Goodreads ratings. I usually just fix grammar anonymously, so I'm not exactly qualified for these sorts of edits - maybe someone with more experience can advise. 70.167.89.2 ( talk) 23:06, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
"Cyril of Jerusalem who preached to this church’s congregation records circa AD 350 the discovery of a great Cross in situ. Pieces of the Cross were disseminated and a portentuous cruciform apparition of light was seen in the sky overhead. By the end of the fourth century a tradition, the Invention of the True Cross, became more widespread; the discovery of the True Cross was ascribed to Helena, Constantine’s mother, and the occasion to her visit to the Holy Land in AD 326.4 According to the legend of Helena, the Gospel triad of crosses, the superscription whose words spurned Christ and the iron nails with which He was crucified were exhumed. A curative miracle established this to be the True Cross. Helena had a pair of its nails dispatched to Constantine, one enshrined in a crown, the other in a bridle; the other pair was said to have been forged to make a sword, or alternatively, a spear for the Emperor. The titled inscription came to be preserved at the Basilica of St. Croce, within Helena’s own palace in Rome. A dispersal of fragments, relics of the True Cross, ensued and continued for many centuries afterwards throughout Christendom." (Stone, Skin, and Silver: A Translation of" The Dream of the Rood" RJ Kelly, CL Quinn - 1999) -- 2001:14BB:69F:A713:9C63:64F4:1FA6:583A ( talk) 12:33, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
The Bible verse quote and link in the section on provenance of the cross as taught in Eastern Christianity need work. The quote and linked verse differ in how they translate the species of wood, and neither matches the tradition they're meant to substantiate. The tradition is however substatiated in the Septuagint and Brenton's English translation. Will fix this issue after deciding whether to touch the Bible verse link or just the inline quote. The link goes to a bilingual Masoretic + JPS 1917 text at Mechon Mamre, which in this instance doesn't seem apt for the context. Ps8v9 ( talk) 15:19, 30 November 2023 (UTC)