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![]() | The contents of the Troy ounce page were merged into Troy weight on 27 March 2017. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
In the article it says:
"One cubic inch of distilled water, at 62 °F (17 °C), and at a barometric pressure of 30 inches of mercury, was determined to weigh 252.458 troy grains (gr)."
Which definition of the cubic inch and inch is intended? The inch has changed values considerably throughout history, the latest in 1960 when it was defined as 0.0254 m. This would have noticeable effect on the all of the non-metric units.
Why not make one more change? Define the Troy ounce as 31.25 g exactly. This way there would be 16 ounces in 500 g and 32 in a kilogram. It will also be easier to weigh out troy ounces on a gram scale. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.187.73.207 ( talk) 17:55, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
I think the paragraph "One cubic inch of distilled water, at 62 °F (17 °C), and at a barometric pressure of 30 inches of mercury, weighs 252.458 troy grains (gr)." needs to be removed from this article, I don't see what it has to do with Troy weight! It's more like the definition of an inch, but as the inch varied until 1958 it does not apply, this particular reference is from 1840. Metricmike ( talk) 03:12, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
Who defined the grain in terms of the gram? When? -- Anon.
"ounce of gold weighs more than an ounce of feathers" - be careful with that "weighs" word. Unless you weigh in a vacuum, a gram of gold weighs more than a gram of feathers, too. [1] Kwantus 20:23, 2004 Dec 8 (UTC)
In the troy system, there are 20 pennyweights in an ounce, and 12 ounces in a pound. In pre-decimalisation British currency, there were 20 pence in a shilling, and 12 shillings in a pound. I'm pretty sure there were other currencies with these subdivisions as well. I'm wondering if there's any historical basis for this; if anyone knows, it could make a good addition to the article. Izzycat 23:45, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
British currency was: 4 farthings to a penny; 12 pennies to a shilling; 2 1/2 shillings to a half crown; 5 shillings to crown; 20 shillings to a pound; 21 shillings to a guinea. Easy, huh?
If troy is a system of mass and avoirdupois is a system of weight (which is what the entries say) there should be a disclaimer somewhere that we're talking about (say) sea level on the earth.
It should be mentioned that troy measures are derived from Troyes, not Troy. I don't have any better sources though than the other Wikipedias (e.g. German and Russian). -- Oop 18:33, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
This has to be one of the dumbest suggestions I've heard for the use of "Troy". It came from Troyes in France? WTF? What muppet came up with that? No. Troy comes from the Germanic root of English. Meaning true. A troy pound is a true pound. Germans still use the word today to mean faithful. You can look it up in any German dictionary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.160.169.126 ( talk) 12:55, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
How does the Troy ounce translate into a millesimal fineness figure? I'm trying to establish if all the 'oz' mentions in 16th century coin were, in fact, referring to Troy ounces. According to John Chown (A History of Money from AD 800, page 43, on Google Books) the 'Troy Pound' replaced the 'Tower Pound' in 1526 as the measurement for the Royal Mint. What I need to know from this article is was the Troy ounce the standard ounce in all money in Tudor England after 1526? Thanks. 86.42.102.87 ( talk) 23:52, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
We need the absolute weight of one of the scottish units. Rod57 ( talk) 03:57, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
The paragraph on the Scottish system is internally inconsistent or at least unclear as it now reads (5/1/10): “Thus there were 16 drops to the troy ounce, 16 ounces to the troy pound, and 16 pounds to the troy stone.” Is the standard reference for the Scottish system the troy ounce (480 grains) or the troy pound (5760 grains)? As written, the Scottish ounce would be 1/16 of a troy pound (360 grains), and the Scottish drop would be 1/16 of troy ounce (30 grains). This would then make the Scottish drop 1/12 of a Scottish ounce (30/360). If so, the Scottish system would then lose the implied symmetry of 1/16 of 1/16 of 1/16 of a “Troy Stone.” [b.t.w., is a troy stone even defined or used elsewhere? And, who would be trading in a mass of a precious metal of that size?] If it were based only on the troy ounce (480 grain) then the Scottish pound would be 16 troy ounces or 7680 grains. If it were based only on the troy pound, the Scottish drop would be 1/16 of 1/16 of a Troy pound or 22.5 grains. In the light of the comment s previously submitted: 01:18, 17 April 2008 (UTC) and 11:10, 5 December 2008 (UTC), it appears that the details of actual historical standards are unclear.
If the facts are so convoluted and unclear, does the full paragraph on Scottish system even belong in the “Troy weights” article? Perhaps the “Troy Weight” article should only make a passing statement such as, “Incorporation of Goldsmiths of the City of Edinburgh used another system. (See the article on the History of Weights & Measures).”
I would ask those with editorial experience to ponder whether the following statement belongs in the “Troy Weights” or “History of Weights and Measures” article: “In Scotland the Incorporation of Goldsmiths of the City of Edinburgh used a system in multiples of sixteen. Sixteen drops to an ounce and sixteen ounces to a pound and sixteen pounds to a stone. It is unclear exactly how the ounces or pounds actually related to pounds and ounces in the Troy system of weighing precious metals.”
Additionally, before an actual reference is made as to how the Scottish system related to the Troy system, the detail of the primary reference (See Assay-Master's Accounts, 1681–1702, on loan from the Incorporation to the National Archives of Scotland.) should be consulted more precisely. MDB341 15:59, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
I have removed this irrelevant piece:-
Ettin is archaic English for giant, and one wonders whether Edinburgh was so named for an unofficial reputation as the "City of Giants." You can recognize a cognate of ettin in the Icelandic word jötunn, which means giant (Jötunnheim was the realm of the giants in Norse mythology, Old Norse being all but identically the same language as modern Icelandic.) Ceartas 21:03, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
I stumbled upon this article while searching for what a Troy Ounce was. One thing I will look into is why the Troy Ounce remains the measure for Gold and other precious medals as opposed to converting to Grams or some other measure. If anyone else has resources or information on this subject I think it would be valuable to the article. Drockel ( talk) 19:07, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
The following moved from User talk:Indefatigable
This system does not measure mass, it measures weight (as the name implies). For example, an item which measures 1 troy ounce on earth will not measure 1 troy ounce on the moon or in free space (because an ounce measures weight). By comparison, 1 gram of a substance will measure 1 gram everywhere in the universe (because it measures mass). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.139.9.126 ( talk) 22:02, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Well, it really comes down to whether you think a pound of steel is still a pound of steel on the moon. Physicists would say "no". Apparently you would say "yes". To me, this implies that saying troy weights measure mass is, at least, contoversial (if not ambiguous). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.139.16.134 ( talk) 16:59, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
This page needs a different picture of a gold or silver bar which actually says TROY ounce on it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.71.117.59 ( talk) 07:46, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
There is a picture on the Krugerrand which shows it as being '1 oz', it is not usual to give it as troy. Wendy.krieger ( talk) 06:44, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
Several weeks ago someone added two paragraphs to this article about Watson's theory on the origin of the troy weight system, one in the Etymology section and one in the History section (second paragraph of Origins subsection). At first I thought this was just another alternative theory. However, after the same material appeared in the Grain (unit) article I became concerned and decided to look into it.
British Weights and Measures as described in the laws of England from Anglo-Saxon Times by Colonel Sir C M Watson KCMG, CB, MA, late Royal Engineers, (1910) is a twenty-thousand-word booklet with no footnotes, end notes or bibliography. In the preface, Watson describes it as "popular" clearly in the sense of not claiming to be scholarly. The full text of Watson's book can be found at archive.org The relevant details can be found on pages 32-34.
Watson claims that the word "troy" means "balance" or "scale" (i.e., equal-arm as opposed to auncel scale) and goes back to Old English. (An auncel is a scale with a fixed weight and movable fulcrum.) However, the only evidence he cites is Wright's English Dialect Dictionary. In order for this claim to carry weight, Watson would need to be a credentialed linguist, dig up more evidence, publish the results in a peer-reviewed academic journal, and wait for other linguists to weigh in. Since Watson is not even a linguist, this entire line of argument is mere conjecture.
Next, Watson claims that the word "tron" is a synonym for "troy" and that the tron family of weight systems is an extension of the troy weight systems. As evidence he cites a single instance in which the Public Record Commissioners translated "troni ponderacionem" as "troy weight." The Public Record Commissioners were responsible for compiling statute books and translating old statutes from Latin and Anglo-Norman into modern English. The text in question is from the Assize of Weights and Measures (Tractatus Ponderibus et Mensuris), one of the famous Statutes of uncertain date circa 1266-1304. However, according to the OED the word "troy" in connection to weight is first attested about a century later in 1390. Furthermore, both the tron scale and the tron family of weight systems are well documented and have no connection with troy weights.
Finally, I can find no mention of this theory in the literature, or anywhere for that matter.
Then there is Watson's second theory, described in this article under Origins in the History section, that the troy system may have some connection to Arabic weights, in particular to the 48-grain dirhem (i.e., twice the troy pennyweight in the same way that the 45-grain dirhem is twice the 45-grain dirhem). Watson admits (page 6) that this is a conjecture, his own words being "it is not unreasonable to suppose that there is some connection ." I have seen the same conjecture in various 19th century Google books. Even though I find this conjecture intriguing and would like to see some real evidence to back it up, I have not been able to find any mention of it in reliable contemporary sources.
In conclusion, I feel that the inclusion of Watson's first theory violates WP:FRINGE and should be removed, while mention of the second theory should also be removed on the grounds that Watson's book is an unreliable tertiary source.
Zyxwv99 ( talk) 15:22, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
The above user that started this section is an idiot, citing a bunch of made up rules, pretending to not read the sources, and deleting things he does not understand,which by all accounts is a lot more interesting - and accurate, then this page -- at least now.
The book quoted is not making any "theories", unlike the theories of this anonymous wikipedia??, it is only referencing what certain well known references of that time said, including laws from many periods of England (including when the Norman french conquered it - necessary), and the English Dialect Dictionary. https://archive.org/stream/englishdialectdi06wriguoft#page/250
The user above "emotes" and ""feels"" his arguments -- I am not making this up - he says "I feel", etc. And spends the greater part of his arguments in logical fallacies of building strawmen and watching red herrings fly by, meanwhile entirely ignoring that the book cited simply cites original sources - laws at various times in England and a dictionary.
Far from being an unknown linguist, the author of the dictionary referred to was a Professor of Comparative Philology at Oxford University. /info/en/?search=Joseph_Wright_(linguist),and the work a well known, definite work of the period (not my words).
There is nothing more definite then laws showing the word was in use before the claim, and academic dictionaries stating it outright. The proper thing to do in such circumstances is to look up the primary sources quoted in the original work, and cite them in order after the original reference, not pretend they aren't quoting the other work, and go off in some weird tangent claiming quoting sources are theories, randomly deleting things.
I am not the original writer, I stumbled on this page just now and bothered to read the sources mentioned. The Wikipedia a mess as usual.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.42.179.151 ( talk) 17:26, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
The progression of subdivisions makes the smallest, the blank, equal to about 281 nanograms. Yowza! Were these finest of units ever in common use, even by the mint? It seems hard to believe that one could conceive of weighing anything to anywhere near that precision in 1649. Joe Avins ( talk) 17:05, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
Troy pounds are not usually used when referring to the weight of precious metals, even if more than 12 ounces are involved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MissouriOzark1947 ( talk • contribs) 14:40, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
I came to this article looking for a comparison between Troy and metric measures, as a highly educated layperson, so I could translate the “10 grams of gold flakes monthly” claim of Venezuelan miners into fractions of a Troy ounce. I’ve left the article totally confused, as a layperson, at the way numbers are presented.
Here is one example of the seemingly nonsensical way numbers are presented: “one troy ounce (oz t) equals exactly 31.103 476 8 grams.” How is one supposed to interpret the meaning of this string of nine digits that has a decimal point after the second digit, and spaces after the sixth and eighth digits, in the absense of any explanatory footnotes? It doesn’t follow any standard way of expressing a number that I am familiar with. If this presentation is in accordance with a Wikipedia number-display standard I have never seen it used elsewhere on the site despite years of almost-daily views.
There are many other places in the article where numbers are displayed in nonsensical ways or the display is inconsistent.
Can someone clean this up? I would but I don’t know the subject well enough to do so and I don’t want to destroy some standard ways of presenting the numbers (but obscure to the layperson).
Thanks for reading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.113.172.196 ( talk) 15:24, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 01:09, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
In the section Troy pound, for a long time the text has read An avoirdupois pound is approximately 21.53% heavier at 7000 grains
.
Eric Kvaalen appears to believe that it needs greater precision and changed it to An avoirdupois pound is 21.5277777% heavier at 7000 grains
. I reverted with the edit note "RV good faith but for most readers, the approximation is all they need: for anyone for whom it matters, assume that they can do the maths.
Eric counter-reverted, this time with An avoirdupois pound is approximately 21.52778% heavier at 7000 grains
. [This is a new concept of 'approximate': going to five decimal places rather than two yields a difference from the original approximation of less than 13 grains (840 milligrams).]
Although the amount involved is trivial, the real argument to me is
wp:think of the reader. We should not annoy the reader with
pettifogging detail, indeed IMO if the text needs changing, it should say approximately 22.5%
. So I am reverting again per
WP:BRD and invite comment from other editors to see if we can reach a consensus. --
John Maynard Friedman (
talk)
20:10, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
Referring to the section ‘Dutch system’, the 20th part of the ounce (whether troy, market or weigh-house) was in Dutch called engels, in the singular, the plural was engelsen. (Engels litterally means ‘English’, as it was inspired by the English pennyweight. The French name for the 20th of an oune was esterlin, which is likewise etymologically related to ‘(penny) sterling’.)
The 32nd part of the engels was in Dutch called aas in the singular, plural azen. In Dutch as can only mean ‘axle’ or ‘ash’ (of a fire, not the tree). Exceptionally, as can mean the Roman weight or coin.
The so-called Holland troy weight (“Hollandsch Trooisch Gewicht”) used a pound of 2 troy marks or 16 troy ounces, instead of the 12 ounces usual elsewhere.
Amsterdam weigh-house weight {“Amsterdamsch Waag-gewicht”) was 40 ´´azen´´ heavier to the pound than Holland troy weight.
I have not changed anything in the article, mainly because I do not have my sources (mainly the book on old Dutch weights, Oude Nederlandse Gewichten by Zevenboom and Wittop Koning, and the Grote Winkler Prins Encyclopedie, 1972–75 edition) readily available to cite at present. —
Mithrennaith (
talk)
05:37, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
The several references to Troy weight 'probably' deriving from Troyes rather ignores the comprehensive work in wiki-France which adds considerable detail to the certainty of the Troyes markets being a valid origin. The 1910 efforts by Watson to suggest 'tron' or an Arabian origin do not seem to have valid weight (! pun). I think despite the entertainment derived from his philological research that historical detail (as per wiki-France) should require his deletion from here and the removal of 'probably' from the source being Troyes. Nojoking ( talk) 06:34, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
Both capitalized and lower-case "t" in "Troy" are used here. Is there an agreed-upon way to style this? troy ounce or Troy ounce? - MJ ( talk) 03:34, 9 March 2024 (UTC)