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Option 1 and Option 2 at the 2018 RFC ( Talk:Trans woman/Archive 4#RfC on introduction) were:
1. A trans woman (sometimes trans-woman or transwoman) is a woman who was assigned male at birth.
2. A trans woman (sometimes trans-woman or transwoman) is a person who was assigned male at birth but identifies as a woman.
The RFC close stated (emphasis in the original):
On the whole, there is consensus that both option 1 and option 2 are superior to other presented options. There is no consensus as to whether option 1 or option 2 is preferable. In the absence of affirmative consensus, the status quo (which appears to be option 1) holds. This does not preclude any subsequent discussions about the article content, but participants should in all cases refrain from edit-warring over the content of the lead or the article more broadly.
This talk page and the archives are filled with those subsequent discussions. Two years ago, Talk:Trans woman/Definitions was created. It seems to me that out of the 37 definitions currently listed on the page, unless I'm miscounting, 6 support Option 1 while 27 support Option 2:
6 definitions like Option 1
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1. "A woman or girl assigned a male sex at birth." Harvard Medical School - Sexual and Gender Minority Health Equity Initiative 3. "a woman who was identified as male at birth" Merriam Webster - Trans Woman 24. "A trans woman is a woman who was assigned male at birth. Some trans women prefer to simply be referred to as women, whereas others feel being trans is an important part of their gender label." Victoria, Australia 26. "Trans woman: A woman who was assigned male at birth." BC Centre for Disease Control, Canada 35. "a trans woman is a woman who was assigned the sex male at birth" - The Effects of Gender Trouble: An Integrative Theoretical Framework of the Perpetuation and Disruption of the Gender/Sex Binary DOI: 10.1177/1745691620902442 15. "Trans women are women who were assigned male at birth and identify as women." Fired Up About Reproductive Rights - Jane Kirby - Between the Lines |
27 definitions like Option 2
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2. "A person whose sex assigned at birth was male but whose gender identity is female" Planned Parenthood - Transgender Identity Terms and Labels 5. "A child or adult who was born anatomically male but has a female gender identity" Princeton University: LGBT Center - The Language of Gender 6. "Someone assigned the male gender at birth who identifies on the female spectrum." Johns Hopkins University, School of Medicine - Glossary of Transgender Terms 7. "A person whose sex assigned at birth was male, but who identifies as a woman" American Psychological Association - Guidelines for Psychological Practice with Transgender and Gender Nonconforming People 8. "Generally refers to someone who was identified male at birth but who identifies and portrays her gender as female." Glossary of Gender and Transgender Terms - Fenway Health 9. "A person whose birth sex was male but who lives and identifies as a woman; a transgender woman." Lexico - Powered by Oxford 10. "people who were assigned the male sex at birth but identify as women" Centers for Disease Control and Prevention 11. "Children assigned male at birth who identify themselves as girls" American Academy of Pediatrics 12. "A transgender female or transwoman identifies her gender as female, but was biologically considered a male at birth." Family Dynamics and Romantic Relationships in a Changing Society - IGI Global 13. "A term to describe a person who was identified male at birth but who identifies and portrays her gender as female" Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Healthcare: A Clinical Guide to Preventive, Primary, and Specialist Care - Springer 14. "A person assigned male at birth who identifies as a woman or in similar terms (eg, as a “trans woman” or “woman of transgender experience”)." Transgender people: health at the margins of society - The Lancet 16. "individuals assigned male at birth who identify as female." Cornell University 17. "an adult who was assigned male at birth but whose gender identity is female." Dictionary.com 19. "A transgender person who identifies as a woman." American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language 21. "a transgender woman may be assigned male at birth, but transition to living as a woman consistent with her gender identity" US Department of Labor's Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) 22. "The term transgender woman typically is used to refer to someone who was assigned the male sex at birth but who identifies as a female." U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission: "Fact Sheet: Bathroom Access Rights for Transgender Employees under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964" 23. "MtF: an abbreviation for male-to-female. It refers to a transgender person who was assigned male at birth, and whose gender identity is that of a woman. This person would also be known as a transwoman. Egale Human Rights Trust (Canada) 27. "Transgender describes someone whose gender identity is different from the sex they were assigned at birth (this can also be shortened to “trans”). For example, a transgender woman is someone who was listed as male at birth but whose gender identity is female." Washington Post gender identity glossary 28. "Transgender woman: A term used to describe someone who is assigned male at birth but identifies and lives as a woman. This may be shortened to trans woman" Stonewall, a UK LGBT charity 29. "‘trans women’ are those born with male appearance but identifying as women." GIRES - trans education and research charity 30. "A person with a female gender identity and male assigned sex would be referred to as a 'transgender girl/woman,' 'transfemale,' or MTF (male to female)" "Transgender youth: current concepts", Annals of Pediatric Endocrinology & Metabolism 31. "Transgender woman/transwoman/transfeminine individual - Person with a feminine gender identity who was designated a male sex at birth" UpToDate, clinical decision support resource 32. "This refers to individuals assigned male at birth but who identify and live as women" "Endocrine Treatment of Gender-Dysphoric/Gender-Incongruent Persons: An Endocrine Society Clinical Practice Guideline", Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism 33. "We use 'trans woman' for someone who was registered male at birth and now identifies as a woman" NHS Digital Service Manual: Inclusive language 34. "a “trans woman,” is a genetic male consistent on all five biological definitions who identifies or thinks of herself as a female, and has “taken social, medical, or surgical steps to physically or socially feminize her gender expression or body”" - Handbook of Population (2019), Dudley L. Poston Jr. 36. "a trans-woman is a transgender person assigned male sex at birth but whose gender identity is that of a woman" - 2017 American Association for Geriatric Psychiatry Annual Meeting Gay and Gray Session: an Interdisciplinary Approach to Transgender Aging 37. " a trans woman is a person who identifies as a woman and was assigned male at birth" - Sexual and Gender-Based Violence (A Complete Clinical Guide) DOI: 10.1007/978-3-030-38345-9 |
4 definitions like neither
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4. "A transgender woman lives as a woman today, but was thought to be male when she was born" National Center for Transgender Equality - Frequently Asked Questions about Transgender People 25. "those assigned male at birth but living as a woman" BBC 18. "a transgender or transsexual woman" Collins Dictionary 20. "Transgender woman": "This category includes persons whose sex assigned at birth was reported as male and whose current gender was reported as female. It also includes persons whose current gender was indicated as transwoman." Statistics Canada: Classification of cisgender and transgender |
I don't know if the list of definitions at Talk:Trans woman/Definitions is complete, or a representative sample of the scholarship, or if all the sources should be given equal weight. Personally, I believe a trans woman is a woman, but looking at the definitions, I can't ignore that they tilt very strongly towards Option 2 and not Option 1, and I wonder whether we should have an RFC with those two options (one somewhat-minor quibble: I would change the "but" to "and" in Option 2). Levivich 04:39, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
Personally, I believe a trans woman is a woman, but looking at the definitions, I can't ignore that they tilt very strongly towards Option 2 and not Option 1..."EvergreenFir (talk) 05:13, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
identifies as a woman. In particular,
whose gender identity is that of a woman,
whose gender identity is femaleand similar, do not mean the same thing as
identifies as a woman, and neither for that matter to all the
identifies and portraysdefinitions (that include gender expression alongside gender identity) in that long list. Only
identifies assources can be used to support that (minority) wording, IMO. Newimpartial ( talk) 15:27, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
A trans woman is a person with a female gender identity who was assigned male at birth. If/when Draft:Female (gender) is moved to mainspace, we could update that link; otherwise, we link "gender identity" but not "female" per WP:SEAOFBLUE and WP:OVERLINK
A trans woman has a gender identity as a woman [but/and] was assigned male at birth.Crossroads -talk- 06:57, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
[[female]] [[gender identity]]
vs [[gender identity|identity]] as a [[woman]]
, I think the idea behind the latter is just to include a useful link back to
Woman (a problem we only create if we remove it in the first place), given that
Woman is presumably a somewhat more relevant target than the
Female article.woman...but has a female gender identityis redundant and doesn't really make sense (and same for "and"). Stating both things together reads very oddly. It, ironically enough, implies that some or many women do not have a female gender identity. "Is a person" is not saying "is not a woman". I would have to oppose this. Crossroads -talk- 06:41, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
Comment - This isn't strictly about the lead sentence, but it is related, and I'd like to raise it before the temperature in the room changes. In examining the lede, it occurs to me that the concept of gender expression is downplayed in the lead but also equally in the body (it is virtually only mentioned in the terminology section). This may reflect the sources actually used in the article presently, but I'm not sure it reflects the available sources for this and the related concept of "presentation" (which doesn't appear in the article at all). Perhaps I am burdened by disputes at Conversion therapy and elsewhere, where editors seemed inclined to remove well-sourced references to gender expression, but I feel (based on my sense of the subject matter) that an article space discussion centered on identity, to the near exclusion of expression, does not do justice to the topic.
Now I recognize that different contexts produce different meanings and different outcomes, and not all jurisdictions have followed Canada in treating gender identity and gender expression as two equally protected characteristics in our legal framework for human rights - so my sense of the subject matter is to some extent parochially Canadian. But the MEDRS literature also deals with gender expression (and its synonyms) at fairly great length IMO, and while not all of these sources relate to Trans women and Trans men, undoubtedly the great majority of them do. So in an ideal LEADFOLLOWSBODY world, I would like to engage editors to think about expanding references to gender expression in the article before finalizing the lead RfC (since any lead that passes an RfC will most likely become very difficult to change ex post. Newimpartial ( talk) 18:17, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
Notes
A trans woman is a person who was assigned male at birth and has a female gender identity.should be pitted against the status quo. I think the alternative is pretty much the one everyone is hinting at in this discussion. Notice it doesn't use "but" which some have objected too. Iamreallygoodatcheckers t@lk 03:06, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57692993 Xx236 ( talk) 09:06, 24 August 2022 (UTC)