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Greatest Pressure Drop
"However, the pressure instrument was inside a vehicle which experienced winds greater than 50 metres per second (110 mph) and therefore this measurement was likely contaminated substantially by dynamic effects."
This statement contained errors of fact and conclusion. Most importantly, the instrument was mounted outside the vehicle, not inside. The Vaisala pressure sensor was installed inside an R.M. Young static pressure head and the entire package was mounted on a mast on the vehicle's roof. The sensor was tested extensively after the event by the authors and the manufacturer and found to be in perfect working order. Therefore this could not be a cause of contamination. In fact, nowhere does the article, or any literature to follow, demonstrate the reading was "contaminated substantially." On the contrary, the article describes modeling conditions under which such a reading is possible via single cell vortex breakdown. Blair, Scott F.; D.R. Deroche, A.E. Pietrycha (2008). "In Situ Observations of the 21 April 2007 Tulia, Texas Tornado". Electronic Journal of Severe Storms Meteorology 3 (3): 1–27.
Amaglioc 17:14, March 23, 2012 (UTC)
The list is about tornadoes, and I could find no mention anywhere that a tornado was involved in this event.
Joyous 05:27, Jul 1, 2004 (UTC)
Not to mention it isn't even accurate as the most destructive (non-tornadic? non-tornadic damage?) thunderstorm and it is very difficult to obtain all the damage costs from thunderstorms compared to tornadoes.
Evolauxia23:18, 27 January 2006 (UTC)reply
This appears to be
Tetsuya Theodore Fujita's Super Outbreak tornado #54, which is documented as 800 yards wide in Thomas Grazulis' Significant Tornadoes 1680-1991. However, in the various maps shown in this reference, the path of #54 seems to be exceptionally wide as it died out - significantly more than other 800 y tornadoes in the Super Outbreak, although not likely to be five miles wide. If someone can clearly document a wider pathlength, please cite a reference.
I would shy away from a 'biggest single tornado' entry in any case, since methods of estimation of tornado size aren't especially reliable.
That entry is definitely erroneous; and yes there are great problems in determining "widest" tornado. It is no longer listed as a record due to various issues. A decent candidate is the Hallam, Nebraska tornado of May 22, 2004 which was found to have a 2.5 mile wide damage path by an expert survey team.
Evolauxia23:18, 27 January 2006 (UTC)reply
The Wilber/Hallam Nebraska Tornado is the largest, according to both
[1] and
[2].
Neither of which are authoritative sources (such sources are listed in the Hallam tornado outbreak article) and it doesn't change the very real difficulties involved in path width determination, but Hallam is a solid candidate.
Ground speeds of essentially zero for tornadoes have been noted in the past. According to Grazulis, the June 2, 1929
Hardtner, Kansas tornado was observed to be nearly stationary at several places in its path. Its parent cloud was stationary for an hour.
Most significant coincidence:
A small town in
Kansas called
Codell was hit by a tornado on the exact same date three years straight! A tornado hit on
May 20,
1916,
1917, and
1918. The U.S. gets 100,000 storms a year; only 1% produces a tornado. The odds of this coincidence occurring again is practically
infinitesimal to nonexistent.
Yes, according to Grazulis. Such an occurrence is extremely unlikely - again according to Grazulis, the average frequency for a tornado strike at any particular place in Kansas is once per 2,060 years. The chance of three strikes in successive years on the same day in (relatively) the same place is very low. But the most likely place for it to happen is Oklahoma, followed by Kansas.
Reference - Thomas P. Grazulis; Significant Tornadoes: 1860 - 1991; Environmental Films;
ISBN1879362007 (hardcover, 1993)
The fact that Canada didn't had a killer tornado in the 1990's is not true. I checked in La Presse's archives and there has been one fatal F2 tornado in St-Charles east of Montreal in July 1994 - which killed a local doctor. The article is in French and not accessible by Internet but here's the source : M-F Leger, "Deja six tornades et l'annee n'est pas fini", June 11th 1994, La Presse, Montreal, p.A1 ---> The translation should be : "Already six tornadoes and the year is not over"--
JForget19:06, 11 June 2006 (UTC)reply
Path Lengths
In accordance with the following website
[3], the longest tornado path was 293 miles. A weather book I own confirms this measurement.
That is definitively wrong. The 293-mile path length for the Mattoon-Charleston, Illinois Tornado of May 26, 1917 was listed as the longest tornado decades ago but was found to be a tornado family. The longest tornado path is fairly indisputably the Tri-State Tornado where no breaks in damage were found; even in possible cases where differing members of a tornado family and downbursts masked damage, it still would hold the record.
Evolauxia23:18, 27 January 2006 (UTC)reply
La Rochelle tornado, September 1669 is said to have travelled over 400km (maybe even more, as it possibly began as a waterspout over Bay of Biscay). However, it is entirely possiblethat it was a family of tornadoes. --
Mikoyan2115:01, 8 May 2006 (UTC)reply
Maximum Winds
I edited the wind speeds to agree with the Doppler on Wheels website
[4] and with the refereed publication on the Red Rock tornado.
Hebrooks8720:36, 20 June 2006 (UTC)Hebrooks87reply
Narrowest F5 tornado
I was wondering if anyone knows what was the "smallest" F5 tornado in width, I know I saw at a page (
[5] the Oakfield tornado was only 100 yards wide when it was an F5, although there were probably one or two that may have been smaller then that when they were AT F5 strength. --
JForget01:04, 16 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Kansas May 2003 F5?
Is there a citation for the statement that one of the F4s in Kansas in May 2003 was considered to be an F5 before being rated F4? There were two F4s that month in Kansas (Crawford County and Leavenworth/Wyandotte County). I don't know the thought process of the Quick Response Team survey on Crawford County, but my office mate was on the other one that assigned the rating and no one on the team considered it an F5. It had marginal F4 damage
[6].
Hebrooks8713:02, 16 July 2006 (UTC)Hebrooks87reply
I believe there was some talk about the NWS Springfield rating the Franklin/Girard, KS tornado an F5, but they didn't do it for whatever reason. However, they did say that it was high-end F4
[7].
Incubusman2723:39, 9 March 2007 (UTC)reply
I believe the issue was that a house had been totally oblitterated and debris scattered, however, it was downwind of a lumberyard, and since the flying lumber likely did most of the damage, it was downgraded to an F4. -RunningOnBrains07:08, 10 April 2007 (UTC)reply
"Deadliest tornado of the 80's"
Umm ok why are the 80's so special?? Were there no deadly tornadoes in the 70's? Or even the 60's for that mater?
DPM21:36, 8 September 2006 (UTC)reply
There certainly were deadly tornadoes in every decade preceding and following the 1980s, but the '80s are considered by some to have been a relative low point in tornado activity, especially violent activity - and violent tornadoes have historically caused the most deaths on average. However, the Saragosa event of 1987 was far from being a sole outlier in an otherwise lull. Other major events of the 1980s included the 1989 Huntsville, AL tornado, which killed 21; the 1985 outbreak in OH and PA which was the worst on record for that region; and the 1984 Carolinas outbreak which included several F4 tornadoes and caused 57 deaths. Perhaps a list of deadliest tornadoes by year or by decade would be better, and would show death toll trends better than highlighting one event from one decade.
CapeFearWX03:57, 3 May 2007 (UTC)reply
Coincidence?
A tornado occurring at a specific date and time doesnt seem to be much of a coincidence. I'm sure if you look hard enough you could find one at 12:34 on 5/6 of one year...it's just not that spectacular of an occurrance. Plus, it was 11:11 PM, which is 23:11 in many countries. I'm going to remove it. -
Runningonbrains22:26, 12 January 2007 (UTC)reply
Most damaging
The
SPC top 10 damage table has some serious problems and shouldn't be used. For starters, it only goes back to the beginning of Storm Data. Second, the use of the central values in the damage category that were used up through 1995 creates some really odd values, given the breadth of the categories (e.g., 50 million-500 million is designated as 250 million.) This is especially troublesome given that some of the cases actually have damage amounts in the text entry in Storm Data (the paper copies, not necessarily the online approximation.) As an example of this problem, combined with another problem, the first entry, with $1,250,000,000 in 1973 dollars is the Conyers, GA tornado. In the paper version of Storm Data, the damage is given as $89M for the tornado. This gets translated using the central value as $250M, nearly tripling the damage from the reported value. In addition, for that case, the tornado hit a total of 5 counties. In the online Storm Data, each county is credited as having $250M in damage (the central value of the class). When it gets taken from the county-based description back to the total track, that results in a total of $1,250M compared to the actual reported damage from the text description of $89M, a factor of 14 overestimate. On the other hand, the Wichita Falls tornado gets underestimated since the reported damage was $400M.
This doesn't even take into account the fact that inflation-adjustment is probably not the correct adjustment to make in any event. Wealth adjustment is probably more representative. A better reference to the history of damage, starting with the historical work on collecting damage estmates done by Tom Grazulis, is
Brooks and Doswell (2001), which gives both inflation and wealth adjustment numbers going back to 1890. From that, the Oklahoma City tornado is the most damaging tornado when an inflation adjustment is applied, and 11th most damaging when wealth-adjustment is applied. 1896 St. Louis, is the damaging tornado by that metric, in US history.
Hebrooks8720:57, 9 April 2007 (UTC)reply
FWIW, the newly updated damages list pretty well matches that found in Grazulis' newer book, The Tornado: Nature's Ultimate Windstorm (ISBN # 0-8061-3258-2). The one discrepancy is that Grazulis ranks the Omaha, NE tornado of 1975 lower, placing it between the St. Louis and Xenia events in adjusted damage. His listing of approx. $111 million in (unadjusted) damages comes from a 1976 article in the Omaha Sunday World-Herald which apparently estimated the final damage total at $111,234,732. At any rate, both that total and the one on this page are much lower than the $500 million to $1 billion estimates that used to be quoted for that storm (including on the SPC page!). Anyway, glad to see the updates.
CapeFearWX03:46, 3 May 2007 (UTC)reply
I changed the name of Wesley F. Unruh to Wesley P. Unruh in reference 6. I knew the man (who has recently died).
However the citation is correct. The error is in the journal. Is it more appropriate to cite the correct name or the correct article?
contribs)
12:31, 2 July 2008 (UTC)reply
Joplin Vs. St Louis
Why is the Joplin tornado listed as the deadliest in Missouri history? Should the 1896 St. Louis tornado take that title with its 255 deaths versus Joplin's ~160? Or were a significant number of the St. Louis Tornado's fatalities in Illinois?
TornadoLGS (
talk)
00:07, 6 January 2012 (UTC)reply
The JLN total exceeds the confirmed count from the Missouri side in 1896, which was 137 in STL (with 118 more in ESTL). It is likely that in 1896 scores more were killed and weren't counted for various reasons, most notably that many people living on boats or the shoreline floated downriver and were also often poor, who tend to be undercounted. The Joplin tornado is exceptional in being the deadliest tornado since 1947. High death tolls occurred every few years til 1953, after which nothing of that order occurred until 2011 (and JLN was an exceptional event in an exceptional year).
Evolauxia (
talk)
00:21, 6 January 2012 (UTC)reply
1999-2010, nothing over $250 million?
I took a look at thee
NCDC data seems to contradict the statement that no tornadoes between 1999 and 2012 caused more than $250 million worth of damage. It would appear that the database lists county segments for individual tornadoes separately. With that in mind I looked at a few surveys and found that the F4 tornado that hit the Oklahoma city area on May 8, 2003 caused $210 million in damage Cleveland County and $160 million in Oklahoma county for a total of $370 million. The individual pages for these two segments state that they were both part of the same damage path. The details given for the two damage segments state that they were from the same tornado. I realize this doesn't put it in the top 10, but it would make the statement about tornadoes from 1999 to 2010 incorrect.
TornadoLGS (
talk)
15:49, 11 January 2012 (UTC)reply
Well, it is definitely untrue given that three of last years' tornadoes broke $1 billion. Unfortunately we don't have any good up-to-date sources, so we have to do some reference finagling. I can tell you that no tornado from 2000-2010 will come close to breaking the list, especially after last year's three billion dollar tornadoes. But I would be ecstatic if someone could find an up-to-date list from an official source. -RunningOnBrains(
talk)01:59, 18 April 2012 (UTC)reply
I realize they wouldn't make the list, but maybe we should change the statement to say no tornado from 2000-2010 broke $400 million? The NCDC storm events archive is down for now, but the
Tornado History Project, which uses SPC data, lists the same figure of $370 million for the May 8, 2003 F4.
PS, the 2012 I said there was a typo, I meant to say 2010.
Widest Tornadoes Contestant
During the 1985 tornado outbreak in Pennsylvania there was a F4 in the Moshannon/Sproul State Forest that was at least 2.5 miles wide.
Maccoat (
talk)
00:00, 17 April 2012 (UTC)maccoatreply
It may at least be worth a mention, but I've found varying figures on the size of that tornado. The most consistent figure I've found is 2.2 miles.
TornadoLGS (
talk)
00:46, 17 April 2012 (UTC)reply
That probably will be disputed for some time to come, despite all the recent talk about the El Reno storm. Note that the Mulhall, OK tornado of 1999 (see 1999 Oklahoma Tornado Outbreak talk page for citation) was, by some measurements, as much as twice that size.
72.0.15.8 (
talk)
17:04, 18 September 2013 (UTC)reply
I made an edit today to the Widest Damage Width section; the Diameter of Maximum Winds figure for the Mulhall, OK tornado was cited as 1600 feet when it was actually 1600 meters (=5200 feet or ~ 1 mile). This is supported in the 1999 Oklahoma Tornado Outbreak page (q.v.), where there is more extensive discussion and citation of the Mulhall storm. Regards,
72.0.15.8 (
talk)
15:01, 6 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Adding a new section
I want to get other opinions, but should we have a section titled, "Most documented F5/EF-5 tornadoes in one day", or even "Most documented F5/EF-5 tornadoes in one tornado outbreak"? I think the first one is probably unnessecary, as the max is probably 2-3. The most F5s tornadoes in one outbreak would probably be more noteworthy. But I'd like to get some second opinions. -
1morey July 19, 2013 3:19 PM (EST) — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
1morey (
talk •
contribs)
As it turns out most in a day and most in a single outbreak are the same in this case (7 F5 tornadoes on April 3, 1974) which is already mentioned under "Most tornadoes in single 24-hour period"
TornadoLGS (
talk)
21:55, 19 July 2013 (UTC)reply
What is the significance of having the section for the largest tornado outbreak in the fall? It seems to be a rather odd qualifier and I don't think it is necessary.
TornadoLGS (
talk)
00:52, 23 March 2014 (UTC)reply
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Why is this a thing? Several EF5s have been confirmed to an absolute certainty since then, especially in 2011, with the last recorded being Moore 2013. Why would NOAA dispute these at all? Are they just stubborn idiots????? Makes no sense. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
2601:2C5:8100:BA0:94CC:E5DC:963E:C450 (
talk)
20:06, 28 December 2016 (UTC)reply
There are some instances where they gave a rating to a tornado that was lower than what other scientists though it warranted, and there was at least one scenario where the reverse happened if I recall correctly.
Dustin(talk)20:22, 28 December 2016 (UTC)reply
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more for Exceptional coincidences and extra data for others
so for exceptional coincidences , i find Tuscaloosa/Birmingham should be there , a lot of F4/F5 have hit there a lot of times
, and St Louis , infact ive read somewhere that i cant find now... about st Louis had it worst then Moore Oklahoma.
and what about the Pilger event? or dodge city event? having multiple strong violent tornadoes all over the place at the same time.
As for tornado damage width for example there should be a graph of the largest tornadoes of over 2 + miles wide , including the noaa official path width and the disputed max width , example el reno tornado 2.6 mile wide for official and 4.2 mile wide for disputed. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Joshoctober16 (
talk •
contribs)
11:47, 12 February 2019 (UTC)reply
the apparent possible 300 tornado in one day in south america...
i think we do have good amount of proof to add it kinda however the real count of tornado isnt realy put it all it states is 23 hours of 100+ tornadoes [1]Joshoctober16 (
talk)
03:33, 2 June 2019 (UTC)reply
Just noticed this inconsistency in the "Exceptional survivors" section: "On March 12, 2006 he was carried 1,307 feet (398 m), 13 feet (4.0 m) shy of one-quarter mile (400 m)"
398 plus 4 is 402, so I'm wondering if someone mistyped the second measurement.
-Yoshinion (on mobile)
2600:1004:B04F:2BD1:65EE:53B8:1B1D:6600 (
talk)
12:00, 13 January 2020 (UTC)reply
It has been recently discovered that the the first tornado of the Pilger Tornado family (part of the June 16–18, 2014 outbreak), towards the end of it's life, was sling-shotted by the forming Wakefield tornado to a speed of roughly 94.6 mph, over 20 mph faster than the tri-state tornado, and held it for roughly 5-10 seconds. Should we nominate it as the fastest moving tornado on record?
See
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMws8ueXJ7U.
JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (
talk)
22:35, 4 December 2020 (UTC)reply
@
TornadoLGS: Im fully aware that YouTube isn't a reliable source, I've been looking for a more acceptable source to use but since this is recently public I doubt there will be one for a couple days atleast. Until so I do agree on waiting, therefore, nominate, not outright declare yet.
JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (
talk)
06:12, 5 December 2020 (UTC)reply
2 things , should we change the fastest winds from mph/kmph to ms/mph and if no EF5 happen before may 24.
1:Dow seems to use M/s alot and somtimes mentions MPH , this makes alot of confusion with 1999 2013 record , one is at 301 and the other at 302 , however its stated both were 135 M/s meaning both should be the same number , rounds up at 301.986 mph , the real info use m/s , so we should likely use this instead.
2:also on may 24 of this year if no EF5 happen , then the EF5 drought record will be broken , so if none happens before may 24 , and its may 24 come and change up this record.
Joshoctober16 (
talk)
03:06, 28 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Navbox lists in superlative sections
Hi United States Man: it strikes me as quite odd having lists (and navboxes at that) appear in sections labeled as superlatives. For example, the subsection Deadliest single tornado in world history suddenly has a navbox that lists the deadliest tornadoes in Canada (?). The U.S. navbox lists are a little more fitting, but still fall under superlative headings like Deadliest single tornado in US history and Most damaging tornado, which describe a single event, rather than a collection of events. In other words, the section headings don't describe the sections' content, or the sections' content doesn't fit the section headings. When I was reading this, I found it quite jarring and took me a bit to figure out what was going on. My solution — to move the navbox lists under a new section heading that at least attempts to describe its content — might not be the best one. Do you think there is a better way to fix this, or do you not think it a problem at all? Thanks,
Brycehughes (
talk)
02:18, 3 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Would it be possible to change the highest speed record from the Tri-State Tornado to the 93mph record set by the Pilger EF4 in 2014? Or is what is listed the highest average speed?
Theforge129 (
talk)
20:01, 7 February 2022 (UTC)reply
ya that is somthing i kept forgeting to talk about , pilger seem to have been moving 96+ mph in foward speed at one moment , however last year in december some tornado warning storms were moving 110 mph , im unsure if some had tornadoes or not but one that had a average moving speed of 90 mph did had a tornado it seem.
Joshoctober16 (
talk)
21:11, 7 February 2022 (UTC)reply
ChessEric,
United States Man,
TornadoLGS. I have not found any sources except ESWD for this, but a F4/T9 tornado in Germany on July 1, 1891 had a forward speed of about 300 km/h. (ESWD does not mention the forward speed, but says 20km path length in 4 minutes). Almost certainly a mistake, but ESSL's ESWD does have it listed. I went ahead and put it in the highest forward speed section and specified that Tri-State is still the highest accepted. Weird, so I ain't too sure what to do. I came across it when building the
List of F4 and EF4 tornadoes.
Elijahandskip (
talk)
15:54, 20 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Yeah, I am very certain it is a mistake. I am in agreement to leave it out as well (well remove it since I added it earlier). But, I ain’t sure what to really do here since ESSL is a reliable source and it technically is a major tornado. I want to remove it since I am certain it is a mistake, but at the same time, that would be
WP:OR, since we do have a source saying it, albeit, a single source.
Elijahandskip (
talk)
17:26, 20 September 2022 (UTC)reply
The March 31st-April 1st tornado outbreak is now tied 3rd most active within a 24 hour period with 132 tornadoes confirmed within 24 hours. How should we handle situations like this when they occur?
ChrisWx (
talk -
contribs)
00:51, 14 April 2023 (UTC)reply
1953 F2 tornado in Louisiana
While watching a
Pecos Hank video, I stumbled upon a comment that said, according to a news report he found, an F2 tornado tracked 235 miles across Louisiana into far northwest Mississippi, I became curious and with a quick search, I found a
KJAS article mentioning an F2 tornado that tracked 234 miles, killing two and injuring 22, they said it was according to Tornado Archive, so I checked out the tornado archive map and I found the F2 tornado they talked about, It tracked 234.7 miles, It's unbelievable, Should I include it?
SomeoneWiki04 (
talk)
13:57, 20 February 2024 (UTC)reply
I added greenfield to the wind speed list due to the 290 mph max possible winds. If anyone has the most likely max possible winds you should add it. Remove it from the list if you think it shouldn’t be on there.
EPhC4 (
talk)
18:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)reply
It seems there is no consensus on if the the table is based on minimum possible maximum winds or most likely maximum winds. We need to decide how to order it.
EPhC4 (
talk)
03:14, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
@
EPhC4 I might be an outside opinion here. let's just stay more on the conservative side here and order by minimum possible wind speed because we know they have to exist
199.247.75.126 (
talk)
16:51, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Verification Check: Highest winds observed in a tornado
As of
this edit at 22:02, 24 June 2024, the Highest winds observed in a tornado section in the article accurate and complies with Wikipedia’s
verifiability guidelines. The information in the section should not be altered unless it is determined present information does not pertain to the section or if new information should be added. But as of this moment, the section contains entirely verifiable information. The
Weather Event Writer (
Talk Page)22:06, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Dovah12333: — To stop the edit war, can you please explain why the information about tornadoes like Xenia and Woldegk is not important for the article? The information is entirely sourced and the sentence started out “While never observed…” Like, various meteorologists have directly stated or calculated the idea of those five tornadoes having 300+ mph winds. In your
most recent reversion, you stated, “Stop trying to spread information that cannot be testified thank you. Unless you can provide evidence as to why 300 mph should be deserved other than the subjective opinion of individuals like Grazulis then you cannot pass it off as fact.”
As a quick note, the only valid arguments in this case would be: (1) arguing the information is not valid at all for the section / article in general or (2) arguing the sources themselves are not reliable, following the guidelines of
WP:RS and
WP:SPS. But the reasoning you gave in the most recent reversion does not actually suffice as a reason to remove the information in my opinion. The
Weather Event Writer (
Talk Page)22:32, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I can send all the damage images there are, besides someone's own words which have no scientific backing as there is no way to testify such winds at the surface structurally or contextually they are going off of opinion or subjectivity. Woldegk is too old in general to even have in this argument, the report made by the German author who wrote the report does not have enough information to verify 300 either.
Dovah12333 (
talk)
22:38, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
It is not my own research, but the arguments against the so called "findings" of Grazulis etc, there is no structural or contextual way one can infer 300 mph winds, that is just factual forensic engineering. Saying Wikipedia isn't 100% accurate does not excuse you from denying the truth.
Dovah12333 (
talk)
22:40, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
What is your source for “there is no structural or contextual way one can infer 300 mph winds”? Everything needs a source stated, so can you provide a source for that statement? The
Weather Event Writer (
Talk Page)22:42, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Under the guidelines of the Wiki itself these tornadoes happened in the 20th century and so did Fujita, before forensic engineering and the implementation of the EF scale, therefore any contemporary "estimates" are not factoring this in and are not reliable given the context, no home is able to withstand 300 mph winds AND NOT FAIL, per the EF scale the maximum DOD for a well built home is 10 with an UB of 220 mph maximum. Considering none of the homes in Xenia would meet this threshold anyway (as an example) there is no way one can estimate scientifically or accurately a 300 mph estimate, this is especially true for tornadoes such as Woldegk and Tri-state which were before the F scale was even conceived.
Dovah12333 (
talk)
22:48, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
WP:!TRUTHFINDERS applies here.
Thomas P. Grazulis,
Ted Fujita,
the ESSL and
the NWS are reliable sources in themselves, as experts and organizations at the head of their field. There is no reason to doubt their reliability on this article, and the claim that it's the claim of one man is irrelevant when that man is an expert in their field or a leading organization in that field.
GeorgeMemulous (
talk)
22:46, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Even inside the article this argument fails; the Greenfield tornado in the same section was officially rated EF4 based on damage, but was confirmed to have over 300mph based on DOW. This argument cannot be applied to Xenia, Tri-state, etc., especially without a source.
GeorgeMemulous (
talk)
22:54, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
But without measuring tools we have no way of knowing, so we cannot make assumptions. This entire argument for 300 boils down to a maybe.
Dovah12333 (
talk)
23:10, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The sentence literally opens with 'While never observed,' and ends with 'are believed to have had winds >300 miles per hour'. We are not trying to pass these off as concrete facts, only likely occurrences based on the opinion of leading experts.
GeorgeMemulous (
talk)
23:19, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Tornadoes without wind speed observations are not appropriate to include in a section titled "Highest winds observed in tornado". A section already exists for tornadoes which produced the most intense damage; if the wind speed estimates on these unobserved tornadoes are based on the damage they caused, then they are more appropriate to include in that section than in one specifying "observed" wind speeds.
2605:AD80:B0:100F:5CA3:F270:6767:EB0A (
talk)
05:18, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Hello, I had added the 1997 Jarrell EF-5 tornado (and corresponding wiki page and NOAA and NIST references) to the “while not observed” section as this tornado although not directly measured is widely acknowledged to have the most intense damage ever seen from a tornado and the wiki page on Jarrell references the EF5 rating and wind speed (>261 mph)from the damage studies However this edit was removed. Can someone provide the rationale why ?
Deepcoolclear (
talk)
01:17, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
All the tornadoes mentioned in that little bit all directly mention, in some capacity, the potential for winds >300 mph, which is not directly stated for the Jarrell tornado. The figure of >261 mph is given because that is the minimum wind speed indicated for an F5 tornado on the original Fujita scale.
TornadoLGS (
talk)
01:27, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The reason is that I moved it to the Most intense tornado damage section, as I couldn't find any sources saying it was over 300 miles per hour. The damage in Jarrell was incredibly intense, but windspeeds were estimated around 260 miles per hour, and damage surveys may have been biased by the fact the tornado stopped in its tracks at peak intensity over Double Creek Estate. If you can find a reliable source that states it had winds over 300 miles per hour, feel free to re-add it
GeorgeMemulous (
talk)
01:29, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
George, okay I understand, thank you. Would this be the case for the Elie, Manitoba tornado as well? It was rated F5 in Canada (where I live) and was Canada’s only F5 to date.
Deepcoolclear (
talk)
14:47, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I remember hearing stated that, similar to Jarrell, it lingered over areas which intensified the damage it did there, so I wouldn't doubt that it had the potential to cause extreme damage. I'll have to check official surveys and literature.
GeorgeMemulous (
talk)
14:56, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The survey I read, which upgraded the initial F4 rating to F5, actually found the tornado was moving faster than initially thought because of its looping path, so it did not linger as long. Only one house suffered F5 damage with a few others rated F3-F4.
TornadoLGS (
talk)
15:03, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
This survey I found states the tornado was at F5 intensity and only caused F5 damage to one home, leaving an open basement. While this is severe damage, I wouldn't classify it as out of the ordinary for an F5 tornado, even if the tornado did linger over it. I'll continue analyzing 2011 Smithville for future inclusion.
GeorgeMemulous (
talk)
15:11, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Hey, so perhaps I am missing something but I decided to dig into the sources for the upgrade in wind speeds for Bridge Creek/Moore. The two sources listed are first off redundant, as the second source merely points to the first source, though the first source doesn't actually mention the Tornado at all (still trying to work out what the deal here is, I'm almost leaning to a mistaken source in the more recent Greenfield measurement statement as there is a different Wurman et al 2021 paper that makes a lot more sense to reference: "Supercell tornadoes are much stronger and wider than damage-based ratings indicate" (
https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.202153511) This paper does make indirect references to the BCM tornado, and even features the 321mph value (as 144m•s^-1). The thing about that value is it is explicitly listed as a "V_gmax" value, which is a value calculated via the direct measurements (as described in this paper using what I am assuming to be those "improved methods", see Materials and Methods on page 5). To the best of my knowledge without a more detailed report on the Greensville tornado, this appears to be the exact same way they calculated the 300+mph values for it from their reported high 200mph values.
Saying all this, something feels like it doesn't add up in the current sources, as the 2024 source seems to imply they somehow managed to dig up a directly observed reading of 321mph 25 years after the fact, which conveniently is the exact same speed as the calculated ground velocity in the other Wurman et al (2021) I linked above.
At best things aren't clear but I am willing to bet that that 321 mph values wasn't a direct measurement, but rather a calculated value which isnt how it's being presented in the chart. I haven't looked into the others the claim they were "revised" yet at least, but it wouldn't surprise me if they are similar cases (El Reno in particular)
Perhaps I am missing something obvious. Regardless though, despite all you guy's best efforts, that chart is still incredibly confusing and not particularly transparent. I get this is a "hot" topic right now, which spurred me to dig into it a bit more, but I think the end goal should be for things to be made a bit more clear than they are.
Maurus1729 (
talk)
03:56, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Pampa tornado wind speed
So lately we've been talking a lot about entries in the 300 mph club for tornadoes. One entry I notice that currently isn't included is the 1995 Pampa, Texas tornado. While I myself have not seen the source, my understanding is that Grazulis estimated wind speeds at >300 mph based on photogrammetry in his elusive F5-F6 Tornadoes book. If anyone here can check an appropriate source to verify, I think it should be mentioned.
TornadoLGS (
talk)
01:39, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
313.5 for Greenfield?
Hey @
MarioProtIV: — What source says Greenfield had confirmed 313.5 mph winds? I had been reverting that so much during the massive edit war yesterday as original research. The current source listed for Greenfield does not list that it had 313.5 mph winds confirmed, so you either should revert the change or add the source for 313.5 mph being confirmed. The
Weather Event Writer (
Talk Page)19:12, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Someone had left it in the body paragraph so I thought it was fine. Guess not even though it is technically the median range of the estimate. I’ll remove it then. MarioProtIV (talk/contribs)
19:16, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
WeatherWriter can you explain your sourcing for coming to this conclusion? The calculation is a refinement of the direct measurements, it's the same refinements done according to the bridge creek paper. The way it's worded now sounds like analysis after the fact does not count for the record? I'm confused.
Wikiwillz (
talk)
05:39, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Reddit
There appears to be an ongoing gag on a subreddit called r/EF5 where users change information about the Moore-Bridge Creek and Greenfield tornadoes in an attempt to make one "win" over the other, or something like that. Not sure if this information is useful to anyone but I thought I should put it here.
AllTheUsernamesAreInUse (
talk)
19:16, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I'll note that I think sometimes such things are worth mentioning since off-wiki activity driving vandalism can be used to indicate a need for protection. Moot now that this page is protected.
TornadoLGS (
talk)
20:18, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Ok. Since the edit war finally subsided, let's have a nice, calm discussion, with no reversions or changes until we have a
community consensus, for how to manage the three tornadoes and the new
University of Illinois publication (
seen here).
The publication states, "Wurman et al. 2007 originally reported 302 mph in the Bridgecreek, Oklahoma, 3 May 1999 tornado. This was subsequently revised upwards in Wurman et al. 2021, to 321 mph, using improved techniques."
In a discussion earlier, Maurus1729 linked the DOI to the 2021 Wurman et al. paper (
[8]), however, that goes to an error website. Maurus1729 also stated it does reference 144 m/s, which is 322 mph. I cannot verify this as the DOI website is being weird I guess. Either way, since the
Doppler on Wheels team stated the winds (measured by a Doppler on Wheels) were "revised upwards" to 321 mph, that seems to pass the verifiability policy. For me, this seems solid enough and seems to be a direct statement that 321 mph was measured. The
Weather Event Writer (
Talk Page)19:26, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
This paper implies that that 321mph number was actually not directly observed, but rather a product of that process (it is again listed as a Vgmax value, which is the calculated ground speeds).
To me it seems that the DOW 2024 statement isn't particularly clear on what these values actually represent, and where that "revision" comes from, so it is left open to interpretation. This, in my opinion, is the most reasonable interpretation, unless it's suggested that this revised direct measurement happens to be the exact same speed as the calculated ground speeds that were created in the exact same year. This however just doesn't seem to add up. They do refer to the 300+mph Greenfield ground speeds in direct comparison to the "revised" values for El Reno and BCM, which doesn't make as much sense if you are comparing a calculated value to measured values.
It seems that if you are going by directly observed wind speeds, the original 302mph value is the one to use. If we accept the accuracy of their ground speed calculations, thats when the 321 mph value should be used. This argument likely stands for El Reno as well.
Maurus1729 (
talk)
22:24, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
slight clarification for El Reno, this stands in the case of the DOW's "revised" value for its wind speeds, not a seemingly directly observed 313mph measurement. I haven't done as much research into El Reno for this.
Maurus1729 (
talk)
22:28, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I'll say what got said for the Greenfield tornado below. The column for the highest confirmed winds wasn't for the highest "measured" winds. Just the highest winds reliable sources say. The
Weather Event Writer (
Talk Page)22:30, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I think this should stay 321, as they did specify they "revised upwards in Wurman et al. 2021, to 321 mph, using improved techniques."
EPhC4 (
talk)
18:47, 28 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The publication states, "Wurman et al. 2014 reported 291-336 mph and Bluestein et al. 2015 reported 313 mph in extremely small extremely rapidly moving sub-tornado scale vortices in the El Reno, Oklahoma 31 May 2013 tornado."
This one seems fairly straight forward honestly. The range is 291-336 and an AMS publication in 2015 directly reported a 313 mph wind gust was measured. The 2015 paper is currently cited in the article, as well as the 2014 paper for the range as well as this 2024 publication. 313 was called out, so that is the highest confirmed wind gust that was measured, as published in AMS in 2015. To me, this passes the verifiability policy fairly easily. The
Weather Event Writer (
Talk Page)19:26, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Just a quick reply to
GeorgeMemulous: I have access to the source, so here is what it says: “115–150 m s-1 at or below 100 m ARL on 31 May 2013 at El Reno, Oklahoma (Wurman et al. 2014a; Bluestein et al. 2018).”
We could change it to be 336 mph (336 mph = 150 m/s) since we would have a source for it. Although, that 2015 paper talked about the 313 mph. I really don’t know if it should be 313 or 336, since we have a source going up to 336 and a source talking about 313 being measured. What do y’all think? The
Weather Event Writer (
Talk Page)01:52, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Check my latest post on the Greenfield section for my input here. Anyway, if the source didn't mention 340mph and instead mentioned 150m/s at peak, I'll change the claim on the El Reno page.
GeorgeMemulous (
talk)
02:38, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
It looks like El Reno's claim of 340mph was a rounding error with Wikipedia's Convert tag, I assume because 336 to 340 is a much smaller jump relatively here. I've manually changed the accepted speed to comply with actual estimates.
GeorgeMemulous (
talk)
02:43, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Based on us using the highest stated winds for Greenfield & highest stated winds for 1999 Moore, I am ok to go with the 336 mph for this tornado. We technically have two reliable sources (the University of Illinois publication + the March 2024 AMS published paper), both saying the wind speed range for the tornado, both with the peak at 336 mph. We stated for Greenfield below that 318 was the highest confirmed wind speed, even though it was a range. This seems to be no different. Anyone else agree – I.e. replacing the "313" with "336"? The
Weather Event Writer (
Talk Page)22:33, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
So there almost seems to be 3 types of numbers here. There is the directly observed speeds (for BCM, this is 302mph), the speeds calculated from the formula discussed in Wurman et al 2021, (321mph as stated by them), and then estimated wind speeds based on some other, likely less accurate method (this is an assumption on my part as I haven't dug into these methods, but this is where 336mph comes from).
I still think it should be 313, they never confirmed it actually got to 336, and they directly said they "reported 313 mph in extremely small extremely rapidly moving sub-tornado scale vortices in the El Reno, Oklahoma 31 May 2013 tornado."
EPhC4 (
talk)
18:46, 28 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The publication states, "The DOW directly measured Doppler velocities as high as 263-271 mph (118-121 m/s). DOW measurements are used to calculate peak tornado wind speeds using methods described in Wurman et al (2021a) and an upcoming American Society of Civil Engineering (ASCE) formal standard for determining tornado wind speeds from proximate radar measurements. DOW scientists calculate peak ground-relative wind speeds, in a very narrow swath to the immediate east of the path of the center of the tornado circulation, as high as 309-318 mph (138-142 m/s)."
This one is where a lot of the controversy has recently been for the edit war. So, as stated by the publication 263-271 was directly measured. The 309-318 was calculated using formulas. We have the column set to be highest confirmed measured wind gust. In the publication, they did directly that what was measured vs calculated. Now, I did some additional checks outside of the academic realm. For their big release of the 300+ mph calculated info,
NBC News published a really (very in fact) detailed article for it as well. NBC News does not mention the directly measured winds (263-271), but NBC News also was careful on their wording. They stated, "For less than a second, the researchers calculated wind speeds of more than 300 mph in a portion of the tornado."
For this, we have the University of Illinois saying directly measured vs calculated and we also have a secondary non-academic source which confirmed the 300+ was "calculated" not "measured" or "reported". I definitely want to hear from others, but per the no original research/verifiability policy, it seems clear that the highest confirmed wind gust should indeed be 271 mph for this tornado, not 318. Thoughts? The
Weather Event Writer (
Talk Page)19:26, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Actually, you are right. The column doesn’t actually say highest measured wind speed. It is for the “Highest confirmed peak wind speed”. Technically, 318 would be the highest confirmed peak wind speed. It wouldn’t be an OR issue. If someone else supports the 318 (or this doesn’t get any other comments for 24 more hours), I’ll go ahead and change it to 318. The
Weather Event Writer (
Talk Page)01:47, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I'm not sure what the chart is doing; it has explicitly defined 'minimum defined peak speeds', but those are often lower than the confirmed peak speeds. Perhaps instead of Minimum Maximum and Confirmed, we could have Recorded, Min Peak and Max Peak? Greenfield's was 271 recorded, and confirmed between 309 and 318, so maybe we can change it to Recorded Peak 271, Min Peak 309, Max Peak 318. I'm unsure what analysis happened on Goshen County's tornado, but Greenfield is known for a fact to be above 300mph at peak and Goshen isn't so having them at the same 'peak confirmed' isn't helpful.
GeorgeMemulous (
talk)
02:36, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I support the 300+ rating for Greenfield since that's what the confirmed wind speeds were. We keep throwing around "calculated" and "measured" as terms without any definition. What does "calculated" mean? You have to calculate the measurements of any DOW measurement according to methodology from
The El Reno 2013 paper. I don't understand why it was changed in the first place or why there's an edit war occurring. If none of us are DOW or X-Band Doppler experts we shouldn't be questioning the measurements they are publishing.
Wikiwillz (
talk)
05:33, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I agree with this change, since the experts with dow technology are the people finding this 300+ measurement and they know more about this than we do.
EPhC4 (
talk)
17:30, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I believe it should be 309. They confirmed 309-318 which means the highest confirmed windspeed was 309, and 318 is the maximum for the range of possible windspeeds.
EPhC4 (
talk)
18:42, 28 June 2024 (UTC)reply
They never specified a specific wind speed only a range so the highest they confirmed should be the 309. They never said it was 318 only it could have been between 309 and 318.
EPhC4 (
talk)
22:20, 28 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I do not support the idea of having it 309. I support the 271 (highest measured) or 318 (highest in the range given). I do not support 309. I know it was changed to 309, but I'm not sure the consensus is for that. The consensus is definitely not for 271, but it seems to be more towards 318, not 309. The
Weather Event Writer (
Talk Page)00:49, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
They never confirmed 309 or 318, they confirmed 309-318. The reason I’m saying 309 is because that’s the highest they confirmed, not the highest in the range they published. They confirmed it was 309 up to 318. Since they never specified it was 318 we can only verify 309. We could also say >309 as the highest confirmed.
EPhC4 (
talk)
15:54, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I strongly support ≥309. It's stated in the research paper and it's academically agreed to surely be stronger than, for instance, 2011 El Reno. 318 works just fine as the maximum estimate.
GeorgeMemulous (
talk)
16:04, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
None of these values have been explicitly confirmed in the sense of a direct measurement. These are values that are calculated by applying a formula to the actual observed values to estimate the ground velocities (this, among other things, gives us numbers that can better be used to compare tornadoes that were measured slightly differently from one another). The range of values they have directly corresponds to the actual range of observed values they saw, so if we accept the validity of this simple adjustment process they have, 318 is just as valid as 309, if not more so. Complete clarity will come when the DOW team releases a full report on the event, but for the sake of what we are doing, 318 is the right value to be using.
Maurus1729 (
talk)
16:05, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Never observed 300+ mph wind tornadoes
Hey
Dovah12333, let’s not get into an edit war over the section. Let’s instead discuss it here and come to a community consensus. If I may ask, why do you think the information should be removed from the article? The
Weather Event Writer (
Talk Page)16:15, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Already gone over this, it is senseless to put these tornadoes in a category where 300 mph might be observed, it cannot. Methods for determining windspeed in tornadoes prior to the conception of the EF scale like Lubbok are inherently inaccurate. For example an F5 tornado like Elie as it is rated F5 is listed as 261-318 mph, which is by the laws of the F scale which have been literally disproven. Not to mention the date for some of these are far too old to make a proper judgement on. Stop Spreading Misinformation.
Dovah12333 (
talk)
17:01, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
This is an argument we previously had in an above section; Dovah12333, you argue that 300+ mile per hour winds are impossible and should not be mentioned in the section. You back this up by saying there are inconsistencies in the scale and that analysis of damage proves there is no way to know; however, you must recognize that these estimates are from recognized experts with authority in their field that should not be downplayed. These tornadoes may not have produced 300mph damage and the wind speeds may have been estimated well above the ground, and the damage intensity scales are inherently imperfect, however, the claims for all of the tornadoes in that section are from the
National Weather Service,
European Severe Storms Laboratory,
Ted Fujita, and
Thomas P. Grazulis, all of which are considered reliable sources and experts in their field by Wikipedia standards. Removing this section on account of your own review of damage photographs is considered
original research and isn't a valid reason to add or remove information. Unless you can find a reliable source in which these specific claims can be disputed, please do not remove the information. Also, claiming the reinstating editors are intentionally 'spreading misinformation' can be considered a light
personal attack and would be best off avoided.
GeorgeMemulous (
talk)
17:16, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
300+mph winds in Worcester 1953 and Jarrell 1997
The article for the
1997 Jarrell tornado had it with 300mph winds, as multiple sources claimed, but I couldn't find any reliable academic literature and all the sources that existed seemed faulty (see the talk page there). Also, I've seen online that the
1953 Worcester tornado may have had winds in excess of 300mph, up to 327mph, but I haven't checked all the sources. I assume Grazulis (who has a close connection to Worcester specifically) made that claim, so if anyone can check that, I'll be sure to add it to the article.
GeorgeMemulous (
talk)
17:08, 19 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Hallam, Custer City, and Timber Lake
May 19, 2024's Custer County tornado was nearly 3 miles wide if we're counting the entire width of EF0 damage. On the
Damage Assessment Toolkit, all 3 miles (nearly, I measured 2.75) are considered tornadic damage instead of wind damage. Also, Hallam, NE's 2.4 mile tornado and Timber Lake's supposed 4 mile tornado were assessed via damage paths (Timber Lake specifically doesn't call the 4-mile measurement a tornado, instead saying "tornadic wind"). It's not necessarily easy to differentiate between strong, EF0-intensity rear-flank downdraft and inflow winds from direct tornadic winds... but, at the same time, what is the difference? Hallam and Timber Lake were assessed from damage paths, so I added Custer County 2024 in the largest width section on account of its damage path, even if it was only 1 mile wide, based on the assessment from NOAA on the Damage Assessment Toolkit and the PNS from Norman.
GeorgeMemulous (
talk)
14:16, 25 July 2024 (UTC)reply