Q: Why is this not named the "Quad-State tornado outbreak"?
A: A "Quad-state" tornado has not been confirmed yet by the
National Weather Service; it may have been a
tornado family. Despite the media hype of a "quad-state" tornado, until it is confirmed, Wikipedia will not consider renaming the article to that. See
this discussion, which was a previous discussion to rename the article to "Quad-State tornado outbreak".
Q: Why does this article include information about Winter Storm Atticus?
A: The storm system began in the Western United States as a winter storm. The system later developed into the more notable tornado outbreak, so the information about the winter storm was merged into this article
per this merge discussion.
Q: Why is the article not named "December 2021 North American storm complex"?
A:
Per this requested move discussion, the non-tornadic impacts of the storm system, aka the winter storm, are not notable enough to rename the article.
A news item involving Tornado outbreak of December 10â11, 2021 was featured on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the In the news section on 12 December 2021.
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Both of you please discuss your edits here. You appear to both be in a slow edit war. Instead of reverting without explanation (or with unhelpful edit summaries such as just "no") please discuss here so we can reach a consensus. â
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654519:11, 30 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Here. The admin admitted the fact but refused to block the IP addresses because the user hops around anyway. The user also shows the same defensive and aggressive behavior on every IP address that is used, so
WP:DUCK applies.
United States Man (
talk)
19:19, 30 November 2022 (UTC)reply
One editor named
User:Andrew5, a well-known
sockmaster, has been attempted to add a specific article from Accuweather to this Wikipedia article for months. The article in question is
2 long-track tornadoes confirmed amongst rare December swarm by Allison Finch. I will link the multiple attempts below. Based on this behavior from a sockmaster (ongoing for at least 6 months) & overall community consensus to exclude the Accuweather article from the Wikipedia article, a formal discussion is needed to help determine whether or not the article and material is viable for the article(s) or should be deprecated (blacklisted) from the articles.
Sockmaster attempts (going from recent to oldest, with all accounts in question blocked):
[1],
[2],
[3],
[4],
[5],
[6],
[7],
[8] (and others you can see in the edit history).
Discussion
Option 1: Looking back through the articleâs edit history, this sock master has been determined since the beginning of November 2022 to add the information as well as that Accuweather article. Seeing how the only person interested or wanting the information in the article is violating Wikipedia policy to get it done, I believe there is an ulterior motive at play here, which most likely means the Accuweather article violates
WP:RS. Also, with numerous editors expressing their opinions on excluding it from the article prior to this discussion, there is a solid
consensus already established prior to this formal RfC. Side note: This RfC was started with the hope of a formal blacklisting of that URL from Wikipedia, since this and
2021 Western Kentucky tornado are the only articles it even pertains too.
Elijahandskip (
talk)
02:09, 23 April 2023 (UTC)reply
(1) Is there a Wikipedia-wide consensus on the reliability of AccuWeather articles already? If it is reliable, we should include the statement and the AccuWeather article as its reference. If it is not a reliable source, see (2).
(2) Are there any other potential references which confirm the statement the IP accounts are attempting to add? If there are, we can and probably should add both the statement and those references. If there are no others, case closed.
Penitentes (
talk)
03:17, 23 April 2023 (UTC)reply
As to part 1, all I found is
Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 365#AccuWeather and The Weather Channel from January 2022, but no formal discussion was made. As for part 2, I have no idea. That said, wouldn't a community consensus basically already be in place since the only person advocating for it's inclusion is the sockmaster and multiple other editors are not wanting it's inclusion? I think the question isn't fully whether AccuWeather in general should be deprecated, but rather if this article specifically should be deprecated from this article, due to it's inclusion being driven by a sockmaster.
Elijahandskip (
talk)
03:29, 23 April 2023 (UTC)reply
We can evaluate the content completely aside from the sockpuppet activity, in my opinion. It usually doesn't bode well when a sockpuppet evading a ban tries to repeatedly add content to an article, that's true, but the issue isn't that they are trying to add something, it's that they are evading repeated bans and using workaround accounts to do so. In my view this RFC shouldn't be about deprecating this specific AccuWeather source at all. If we chose to do so, what would that imply? First, that AccuWeather is not a reliable source, and second, that we should deprecate sources used by ban evaders in their attempted edits.
It feels like this RFC should be about whether the statement that User:Andrew5 has been attempting to add should be added or not. I tend to think it's notable enough to mention that the Bowling Green tornado had the second-longest path ever recorded in December, but the edit history of the article may show, as you say, that the majority disagrees. Either way, I think that's the more appropriate conversation to have.
Penitentes (
talk)
03:42, 23 April 2023 (UTC)reply
A RfC is not required for this at this moment. You can just start a talk page discussion, please refer to
WP:RFCBEFORE. There is no prior discussion on the article talk or archive discussing this specific issue. Regarding sockpuppet concerns, bring that to the attention of
WP:SPI. ~
Cyclonebiskit (
chat)
02:27, 23 April 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Cyclonebiskit: per
Wikipedia:Deprecated sources, the process is done generally through an RfC. Also, with the amount of edit summary discussions (over the last 6 months) as well as
Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Should AccuWeather be deprecated? (started and ended 2 hours earlier), there has been enough discussion (multiple times since November 2022) to satisfy
WP:RFCBEFORE. As stated in my sidenote to my !vote option, I started this with the hope of a formal deprecation, so an RfC is needed for that as well as to avoid canvassing concerns since per
WP:RSN, discussions like this are generally held of article talk pages, not a noticeboard.
WP:SPI is already taken care of since the sockmaster keeps getting blocked. But for the source deprecation process, an RfC is the best option.
Elijahandskip (
talk)
02:35, 23 April 2023 (UTC)reply
You don't deprecate an individual news article. If you get a consensus to remove it, then you can remove it; there's no need to deprecate it.
Is this source inaccurate? Is it biased? Those are the relevant questions to deprecation. If this is a concern for the entire accuweather domain, and deprecation is warranted, that should be discussed at
WP:RSN.
Elli (
talk |
contribs)
04:40, 23 April 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment â Since it appears starting an RfC was not the right call, I have removed the RfC tag. However, I still hold to this discussion to blacklist that AccuWeather source from this article.
Elijahandskip (
talk)
04:50, 23 April 2023 (UTC)reply
New split
@
MarioProtIV Was there a prior discussion and consensus reached before splitting the article? Did I miss a discussion within the weather project about splitting this article? A bold split like this requires editor to follow the procedure in
WP:PROSPLIT rather than an unexpected content transfer. Dora the Axe-plorer (
explore)
05:51, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
There was technically one but it was started by a blocked LTAer so itâs null and void in that regard, so basically no. Thereâs been some discussion about individual tornadoes which, fair points to not really unless exceptional, but generally whatâs been the case now (at least, for the last several outbreaks in April and May of the current year), is splitting if the table gets too long (once you reach about 75-80 tornadoes with several standalone sections (at least 4 or 5) for the notable tornadoes). Some discussion was brought up in early 2022 but the article was smaller back then, and in the past 2 years a lot more has been added, with a few more tornado sections having been added (which are long). Itâs not a written consensus, but there hasnât been pushback against it so it basically is BOLD in that regard. MarioProtIV (talk/contribs)
06:53, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I don't think those recent outbreak articles are of the same high-profile status as this in terms of human/social impact and scientific significance (I'm an earthquake-focused editor I may be wrong). Being of that significance, following the split procedure to gain a clear concensus for this particular case should be the way to go. Do start the discussion if you would like to proceed with the split. Dora the Axe-plorer (
explore)
07:28, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Table split?
Per request by Dora from the brief conversation above, I am proposing if we should split out the table into its own page. I initially did so BOLDly on the initiative that this page is getting too long, especially with the non-tornado details (aftermath, etc) which have a lot more detail. I should note that with outbreaks usually on the scale and significance (in terms of intense/violent tornadoes with this much impact and the details of the aftermath) as this one with a lot of post-outbreak detail, we have tended to split them out if the outbreak total surpasses 75 to 100 tornadoes. Arbitrary? Yes, but it seems to be more of a âsilent consensusâ that we seem to just follow on instinct, and that hasnât had any pushbacks. Additionally, for mobile users, it would be helpful to split as well since it takes quite a bit of scrolling if one is going to read just the notable tornado sections or the aftermath and non-tornadic effects. Thoughts? MarioProtIV (talk/contribs)
23:04, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply