The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that the tornada is the
Occitan equivalent of the Old French envoi, the Galician-Portuguese finda, and the Italian congedo and commiato?
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The tornada is equivalent to the Old French envoi, the Galician-Portuguese finda, and the Italian congedo and commiato, the Occitan lyrical tradition having served as the model for these and other Romance languages.[3] -- the Occitan lyrical tradition having served is a rather awkward construction, This sentence really needs to be rephrased...especially with the inherent weakness of a sentence that hinges on a participle like "having", and then having a complex and convoluted
catena with a past-tense served following.
Where the confusion arises is considering the audience of the lowest common denominator...I write an article thinking "some dumb ninth grader who doesn't know how to research and doesn't know anything about the subject is going to plagiarise my article for a book report." I am aware of what Occitan (and the langue d'oc) is due to considerable scholarship on the Cathars and frequent trips to Carcassonne, but most people do not. For instance, an uninformed observer would benefit from a frame that sets the stage...a few sentences discussing placement in time and summarizing the importance of the broader topic where the tornada resides--i.e. when this Occitan literature emerged compared to others, why it has primacy over other literary traditions, the phenomenon of the troubadors and how their work generated the legacy. Just a paragraph or a few additional sentences in the first paragraph would be key to set the stage. I think focusing on the etymology of tornada/tornat/etc. slows down the stage-setting. That itt impacted other literatures...largely this was due to the migration of the troubadors from city to city, court to court. Mention the dynamics of its spread. I think this discussion would benefit from just a sentence or two that explains the historical dynamic from which this poetry emerged. --
ColonelHenry (
talk)
16:59, 23 February 2013 (UTC)reply
The metrical structure and rhyme of the tornada, as it originated in Provence, usually reproduces the last part (cauda) of the preceding stanza -- How is the topic sentence contingent to as it originated in Provence. Elucidate why Provence, metrical structure, rhyme and the cauda are connected.
I meant it in the sense of the original tornada, produced in Provence (the epicentre of the Occitan language) reproduces those attributes. How would you prefer it to be worded?
MasterOfHisOwnDomain (
talk)
14:30, 23 February 2013 (UTC)reply
That would be where a brief summary as mentioned above would benefit... The region of Provence was the epicentre of the Occitan language and culture, etc. The tornada takes on the attributes of the cauda (last part) of the preceding stanza through its unique combination of metrical structure and rhyme would be more effective...and then follow it up with how the metrical structure and rhyme are unique (i.e. examples) within its usage akin to the cauda. --
ColonelHenry (
talk)
16:59, 23 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Give examples by Petrarch and Dante. If they really are notable vis-a-vis the tornada, tell me why.
Give examples how the form developed over time in Occitan poetry, and how it developed in other literatures. Expand the discussion of its legacy...how, when, who,
Right now the article doesn't show the mechanics of a tornada through examples, scansion, and properly showing something by which the reader can walk away and on a later encounter say "ah, this is a tornada". Explain, explain, explain.
I think it would be very difficult to adequately summarise the diversity of the stanza form; as an example statement, Butterfield says: "The sheer variety of musical devices and compositional features makes it hard to generalize about the music of the troubadours." But I will try.
MasterOfHisOwnDomain (
talk)
16:52, 23 February 2013 (UTC)reply
I can appreciate that analysis. The troubadors' art was improvisatory by nature and influenced by a considerably diverse number of ethnic traditions...stuff that books and dissertations are made of. --
ColonelHenry (
talk)
17:02, 23 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Remove "notable" from notable poets in the sentence with Petrarch and Dante...it's
peacocking.
You use the term "Occitan lyrical tradition" a few times...it is rather empty unless it explained. it isn't adequately explained what it means and why it is important.
...concludes that the "tornada developed in the Italian lyric from a simple concluding formula to a sophisticated projection of the poet's message through the medium of a human character." This quote from Levin (footnote 8) really needs to be explained, because it's really empty academic nonsense.
I used that quotation really to suggest that a lyric tradition (such as Italian) has developed the tornada in ways not envisaged by the origin Occitan. But I can explain it if you think that would help.
the caption for the image would be better served as an example in the text. it might run afoul of
WP:CAPTION because of its length and content. I do not believe it meets the five guidelines for a good caption listed therein.
this article needs more categories...I'd recommend Literary terms, Poetic form, and if there is a Catalan usage of this in addition to its position in Occitan lit, how about Spanish poetry or Catalan poetry, maybe linked to poetry of a certain era (is this renaissance or medieval?)
if a tornada is a cobla, why is it not mentioned in the Cobla article?
To be frank, because WP's coverage of this subject area is appalling and has major gaps. A cobla is simply the general Occitan term for a stanza, and so a tornada is a cobla.
MasterOfHisOwnDomain (
talk)
14:30, 23 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Candidly, by my first impressions of the article, I have sincere doubts that this article is not broad enough in its coverage to warrant GA status at this time. Do you think this article could be adequately expanded in a week or two-weeks time?--
ColonelHenry (
talk)
07:17, 23 February 2013 (UTC)reply
I will do my best to make sure it's broad enough in the coming days. Truth be told, I imagined it was broad enough when I nominated it, because it's a very limited subject, but clearly that's not the case. Thanks for the initial review, will update my comments as I make changes.
MasterOfHisOwnDomain (
talk)
14:30, 23 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Second pass
I notice the emendations by the nominator and have performed a copyedit on the piece that both repaired minor errors, rephased a few sentences, and moved around a few sentences to paragraphs where their content was more appropriate (i.e. flow, continuity). I also included two or three lines from related articles
Occitan language,
Troubadour in order to add brief context. The following are issues I noticed on a second pass that should be addressed:
PARAGRAPH 3: the majority of their poems can be categorised as cansos (love songs), sirventes (satires), and the cobla (individual stanzas). connect this with the tornada. would it be correct to appened "which often employed the tornada" or something that elucidates the connection?
PARAGRAPH 4: by "surrounding material" do you mean the verses that came before the tornada?
PARAGRAPH 4: used to create new narrative material—as in the pastorela “L’autrier jost’una sebissa”. Can you expand this to include this particular example? what is the new narrative material in this poems tornada and how does it compare to other themes in the pastorela?
PARAGRAPH 5: tornada metrically replicated the second half (sirima) of the preceding stanza, -- simplify/explain this...a reader will ask "how?" and without knowing the sirima, they have nothing to compare it to.
PARAGRAPH 5: Comparatively, the Sicilian tornada formed the entire last strophe of a canzone (a song or ballad) and was limited in subject matter. Here, a reader will ask "how?" how was it limited? , what subject matter?
PARAGRAPH 5: I am pretty sure you mean
Guido Cavalcanti (1250-1300) who was a contemporary of Dante and other stilnovisti, and not the later Giovanni Cavalcanti (1444-1509) who was a contemporary of one of my favourite poets of the period,
Poliziano, and others of the Medici patronage.
PARAGRAPH 5: where the stanza form was developed throughout an entire poem. -- elaborate on this, how? it doesn't convey any information beyond labels to an average, unaware reader.
Once these are addressed/resolved, I will do a final copyedit, fill out the final scorecard template applying the GA criteria and I am confident it will be a GA.--
ColonelHenry (
talk)
23:36, 24 February 2013 (UTC)reply
2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with
the layout style guideline.
2b.
reliable sources are
cited inline. All content that
could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).
This is a useful article on a literary device from Occitan poetry that became popular in Medieval and Renaissance literature, and used by many notable poets. The article presents the key information and a broad analysis of this subject in an accessible yet reliable manner. Congratulations on an excellent article that deserves inclusion among the best that Wikipedia has to offer. --
ColonelHenry (
talk)
23:21, 25 February 2013 (UTC)reply