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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Toll roads in England →
Toll roads in the United Kingdom — This page has (I think) been moved from its former title without discussion. Some one has created a new page with the target name, so that I cannot nove it back. I would not oppose the title becomg
Toll roads in Great Britain, but separating England and Wales (where the main history or the subject is much the same) is ridiculous. The difference is that a new system was created in Wales in reaction to the
Rebecca riots. This is a general article covering a number of different topics, linking more detailed main articles; there is thus no reason why this article should not cover the whole of GB, or even the whole of the pre-1922 UK. As far as I can make out there is nothing to say about Scotland except soemthing brief about the
Skye Bridge. Having looked at the external link on the Scotland page, it looks as if I am wrong and that Scotland did have turnpikes, but probably not very different from the English system, but I still believe we need the move requested.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
15:33, 3 April 2010 (UTC)reply
Support As the article also briefly discusses toll roads in Scotland and Wales, then Toll roads in the United Kingdom is the most appropriate term.
Skinsmoke (
talk)
23:06, 6 April 2010 (UTC)reply
Comment (from nom)
Fishiehelper2 and I have had discussions on our respective talk pages. The Scotland page brought up a website that appears to indicate that there were some turnpike roads in Scotland, though other material on that sounded rather too like the English parish organisation for highway repairs for me to be sure it is really a
WP:RS. The question is whetehr the article should cover England and Wales (as he suggests), or Great Britain (with Scotland too). Since during part of the turnpike era, Ireland was part of UK (of GB & Ireland), restoration to my suggested target might be appropriate. The question is really one of what the scope of the aritcle should be: if Scotland is to be included,
Toll roads in Great Britain would be appropriate; if not,
Toll roads in England and Wales.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
15:56, 11 April 2010 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This article needs serious fixing!!!
This article is need of serious fixing - if the title is to be "Toll roads in the United Kingdom", I expect to read about 'toll roads in the United Kingdom' and not about the history of toll roads before the United Kingdom was created. Material that is prior to the scope of this article should be removed. I will do it myself in a few days unless anyone else wishes to fix it first. Cheers
Fishiehelper2 (
talk)
09:34, 17 April 2010 (UTC)reply
Following comments from the above editor, both here and on my talk page, it is plain that the move caused problems as to regard the date of the conception of the "United Kingdom", and the Article spanning over that date. Looking back at the Move arguments, it is obvious that a change of name to "Toll roads in Great Britain" (as was suggested as a possible alternative) would eliminate such problems, as Great Britain is a fixed entity. I have therefore moved that page again. Hopefully this will resolve all editor's concerns. The only minor downside could be that it will not include Northern Ireland - I don't know if there are any toll roads there. However should it be necessary to add them, then it could be done as "Toll roads in the British Isles", and roll in Eire as well. Ronhjones (Talk)19:24, 19 April 2010 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an
archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article title and scope
I am happy with the outcome of the various moves. Great Britain strictly refers to an island, comprising England, Scotland and Wales, so that the objection to referring to UK before it existed (and its extent as including all Ireland in 1801-1922 does not arise). If we need a "Toll roads in Ireland", it can be created as a separate article. Since the section on England and Wales is a parent to more detailed articles, this does not need to be expanded (or not much), but the "Scotland" section remains poor and I have tagged it as a stub. I have just expanded the "recent" section to bring in toll bridges, with a link to a separate article on this. There is a category,
Category:Toll bridges in the United Kingdom, which should perhaps be better linked in too.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
11:28, 8 May 2010 (UTC)reply
Having now read the above discussions, can I suggest it would be more sensible to have two separate articles? One detailing the current state of toll roads in the United Kingdom, and another which details the history of toll roads on the island, if that is indeed of historic encyclopaedic interest. Either way, I do think some mention of toll tunnels should be included.
IainUKtalk17:47, 13 March 2012 (UTC)reply
I have adjusted the lead and content so that this article now covers both the current state and the history, (which is also what the title suggests it might do). I have also created a link to a new article on
Road pricing in the United Kingdom which will focus on all the politics around charging for road space in congested areas. It may however be appropriate to bring these two articles together in due course. For now I will try to avoid duplication.
PeterEastern (
talk)
07:40, 17 April 2012 (UTC)reply
This is a general article. GB is an appropriate scope, because there are no road links with Ireland. We already hve two more detailed hisotrical articles -
Turnpike trust and
pavage. It is appropriate for this article to cover all periods. The new
Road pricing in the United Kingdom is a welcome addition on the current situation. I would however suggest that the list of current toll roads/bridges/tunnels should come much later in the article.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
23:56, 18 April 2012 (UTC)reply
However... the HGV road user charging system being proposed by the coalition government at the moment talks about the UK
[1] and section 39 of the main pdf consultation document states "In Northern Ireland, the Driver and Vehicle Agency could administer the user charge as DVLA’s agent (as it currently does with VED). Or DVLA may bring both activities in-house". As such it seems that UK is the right title even if it doesn't have much sense!
PeterEastern (
talk)
22:06, 24 April 2012 (UTC)reply