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Following the edit which changed "some members of the nationalist community (who oppose the sectarian marches) and some of the unionist..." to "some members of the nationalist community (who oppose what they see as sectarian marches) and some of the unionist..." I am beginning to wonder about the way the word "sectarian" is used. Surely an organisation which excludes members of a given sect (and I don't mean unitarians) and has the object of thwarting the plans and objectives of that sect must itself be sectarian in nature. There can be no doubt that the marches on the Twelfth are sectarian in intention, nature and result. Nor does the Orange Order itself very vehemently deny that it is sectarian. I believe that "what they see as sectarian" is a weasel phrase; the marches are sectarian. It is up to us to decide whether sectarianism is a bad thing or not. A better phrase would be "some members of the nationalist community (who oppose the marches on the grounds thatthey are sectarian) and some of the unionist...". -- Muinchille 16:30, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
I would just like to point out, there are no significant orange parades in Canada in this day and age, even in newfoundland. I'm not trying to stir up an argument I just don't like canada being lumped in with sectarianism in any form. I know the Orange Order had a fundemantal influence on Ontario as well as any number of other provinces but it's still not right to put Canadian links to a certain sect that has little or nothing to do with the nation in it's modern form. I will freely admit I'm a canadian of norn irish catholic descent, but I would honestly argue for any un-biasedness (i know im making up words) in any shape form or fashion. I feel a bit stupid as I've met loads of people from the north of ireland in my days from both sides of the slim divide and in these days these silly arguments mean fuck all in people's day to day lives, the only point I'm trying to make is don't tie canada into this fading argument from centuries past, I can't think of a more forward thinking country than this land and I don't personally appreciate the mud slinging with our name's involved, let sleeping dogs lie. easy
-- Yipperson 04:18, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
I've changed "Great Britain" to "England" in the section about the Twelfth being celebrated outside the noth of Ireland. That's because although it seems to have largely disappeared in England, I think that there are still parades in Scotland. Indeed, the photograph of a parade at Larkhall rather bears this out. Figeac ( talk) 15:37, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
The Twelfth has and has had quite a profound impact on Northern Ireland life, as this has been the day when things explode, both literally and metaphorically. I think this article needs a bit of development to reflect the impact it has on Northern Ireland. Mouse Nightshirt 22:34, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the following text from the Orange Order article. An editor may wish to integrate this into the article.
JASpencer 22:13, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Can't see why you took this stuff out - it might be fairer to innocents who know little of our affairs to see all sides of the argument fully presented. In a way the two points of view are the information. Trying to edit away one side or another does no service to either side. Personally I've always believed that Unioinism should be given the chance to expound its views as much as possible.--
Muinchille
11:56, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
They don't flee, they avoid. I've met loads of them down here and on holiday in Spain. Go to Alicante and listen to the accents - no citation required - direct personal experience. How about "middle class" instead of respectable then? Like me, you probably think your point of view is perfectly reasonable and balanced, and avoids "weasel words" like "perceived sectarianism". -- Muinchille 12:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Verifiable enough - just look around the North - nobody there. Try http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/irish_news/arts2006/jun19_tourism_sees_twelfth_in_new_light.php -- Muinchille 12:58, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
and
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/1999/07/14/shead_1.htm
There it is - most Northerners regard the whole thing as foolish and distasteful, and leave. Good luck to those trying to persuade people to come to the North for cultural reasons around the twelfth. They will surely need it!
Thanks. This is better. The original article made the whole thing sound like an inoffensive and innocent ramble through the countryside. Please God, one day it will be.-- Muinchille 13:23, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Now much better.--
Muinchille
14:52, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to re-edit this article and take out the references to a mass exodus of "middle class" protestants from Northern Ireland during the marching season. It is not verifiable and the article cited does not back up the claims made. One could also argue that as the article itself appeared in a paper with a nationalist slant. wikipedia is not a forum for your anti-orange or anti-loyalist beliefs see "foolish and distasteful".
From the Orange Order article. Please incorporate this as you see fit:
JASpencer 22:32, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
In context, it should should not be forgotten that many of the United Irishmen--the driving force behind the 1798 rebellion--were Ulster Protestants, including much of the leadership.-- PeadarMaguidhir 09:59, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
It is now time that we recognized the Ulster Protestant tradition as part of Ireland's cultural heritage. (After all, the 1916 Rising was commemorated in Dublin this year (2006). In this context, can anyone please tell me the origins of the Lambeg drums? Thank you!-- PeadarMaguidhir 09:59, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Check out the article on Lambeg Drums. There is very little that doesn't have a wikipedia article! Afn 11:26, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Hello Peadar. Whilst carrying out my masters research in the university of groningen I happened across some interesting documents that point to the origin of the lambeg drums and their malacca playing sticks. Im new to adding information to this site, and therefore cannot see any manner to get in contact with you. sincerely, nmac@hotmail.com
"Sectarianism refers (usually pejoratively) to a rigid adherence to a particular sect or party or denomination. It often implies discrimination, denunciation, or violence against those outside the sect. The term is most often used to refer to religious sectarianism, involving conflict between members of different religions or denominations of the same religion. It is also frequently used to refer to political sectarianism, generally on the part of a tight-knit political faction or party."
The above is quoted directly from wikipedia's own article on the subject. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectarian
To say that the Orange Order are anything other than sectarian or that to say so is merely a point of view is akin to saying the same about the sky being blue or the Nazi Hollocaust of the Jews. The order does not allow membership to Catholics. The marches are inciteful as is plainly evidenced by the songs the marchers sing:
http://web.archive.org/web/20040623084914/ireland.yi.org/Croppies_lie_down.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boyne_Water
http://sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/pages/tiOLDFLUTE;ttOLDFLUTE.html
That's just a sample.
Where the real bone of contention lies is in the fact that for many years these marches, with their deeply offensive songs, were traditionally routed through Catholic ghettoes and boroughs where they caused deep resentment. This is not to say that if they didn't march through Catholic area, they would not be incitefull, as they quite plainly incite religious hatred. Since the establishment of the Peace Process many mechanisms have come into place giving the Catholic community a stronger voice and so the Orange Order has been forced to reroute many of the more controversial parades. The history of Irish Unionism in Northern Ireland can only be described as shamefull and ugly, to claim otherwise can only be nieve or else is just a smoke screen to further the sectarian nature of Unionist politics. The Orange Marches and celebrations of the Twelfth are a hangover from this tradition of segragation which are perpetuated by those who would like to see a return to the good old days of Gerrymandering and Human rights abuse.
In April 1963, when the South African minister of justice, Belthazar Johannes Vorster was introducing The Coercion Bill he publicly stated that he “would be willing to exchange all the legislation of this sort for one clause of the "Northern Ireland Special Powers Act". Vorster, in 1966, became prime minister of South Africa and then president.In fact the architects of apartheid in South Africa often quoted the Special Powers Act to justify their own repressive regime. (see South Africa and the Rule of Law, South African department of foreign affairs, April, 1968). This should give some idea as to the slant of power in Northern Ireland up until the last decade.
Happily things are changing with the Peace Process and that Unionists are slowly but surely losing their overall majority and the power to perpetuate Civil Rights abuses unchallenged. Maybe one day there will be peace in the North not until it's history is recognised for what it is.
Mo Conyeelock 18:25, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with the proposal to merge the article Orange Walk into this one. Although the festivities of the Twelfth do include many Orange Walks throughout the world, Orange Walks take place at other times of the year. I'm not even sure that the Orange Walk originated specifically for the Twelfth - wasn't it the Battle of Aughrim originally? -- Mal 09:01, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
History "Irish Protestants commemorated several events from the 17th century onwards, celebrating the survival and triumph of their community in the face of the Irish Rebellion of 1641 and the Williamite war in Ireland (1689-91)." This surly needs to be referenced? For example "Irish Protestants," is that all "Irish Protestants." ?
"The first such commemoration was the anniversary of the 1641 rebellion on October 23, when it was believed that a plot to massacre all Protestants in Ireland had been narrowly averted." Now is this right "first such commemoration was the anniversary of the 1641." Even then we had marches? "it was believed that a plot to massacre all Protestants in Ireland had been narrowly averted." This needs a reference.
"The Twelfth parades of the early 19th century often led to riots and public disorder, so much so that the Orange Order and the Twelfth were suppressed in the 1830s and 40s." NOW THIS I can reference, if there is no objection?
Over all its not a bad article, but could be improved? -- Domer48 12:45, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
There were some changes to the recent edits I made to this article. I have made individual edits either restoring or adjusting my previous edits. Please feel free to discuss any changes I have made prior to merely reverting them (and thus engaging in an edit war), here.
I have described my own rationale in the edit summaries: the source I used described "members of both communities". It did not specify many, some, few, or all; the Union Jack is the common name for the British national flag; the flag of Northern Ireland is the name people use to describe the flag of Northern Ireland (which is also known as the Ulster Banner when part of the Northern Irish coat of arms) - it is no more or less "official" than the flag of Scotland (also known, by the way, as the St Andrew Saltire.. though there doesn't seem to be any objection to using "Flag of Scotland" in the text) or the flag of England. -- Setanta 07:18, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
O Fenian thats it in a nut shell. This issue has been done to death, to keep harping on at this stage is disruption plain and simple. -- Domer48 'fenian' 19:53, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
The source Mooretwin has added also slightly contradicts his wording, as it says "Nationalists began venting their fury that the police had allowed a "sectarian" march to pass through their area". I do think "through" on its own is more correct and makes the point that the most contentious parades go through nationalist areas, not just past them. O Fenian ( talk) 11:14, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
Hello from Amsterdam, the Netherlands. This is a small note on a small point relating to calendars and the British tradition and that of continental time-keeping of the day. The switch from the Julian to the Gregorian calenders brought with it a change of ten days. In all of the archival letters I have discovered (transcribed and translated) here in Noordeinde Palace and in the States-Provincial archival-depositories, the letters written by the Dutch officers serving on the Ireland island were always dated twice on the header above page one, each date ten days apart. This is because the difference in British Isles time and Continental (the Julian and the Gregorian calenders) time was ten days. That implies that the 'bringing forward' of British Isles time to Continental time (the 'Inter gravissimas' calender of Pope Gregory XIII of 1582) brought with it an addition of ten days to the celebrations formerly held on July 1st, relating to the Battle of the Boyne that took place on that date. That this, in fact, coincided with the very Eve of Aughrim's July 12th (in the Julian, or old, calender), I believe, served only to magnify the actual event itself, for those that lived 'in those times', i.e. on the cusp of the transgression from old time to new, the Julian to the Georgian calenders, in one lifetime. Can you all imagine how tumultuous a changeover that would be today? We would all be dancing 12 hours out of kilter in 12 months time if that were visited upon us today! In the previous decade I visited a place near to Aughrim, a town called Ball in a Sloe, of County Galway (aptly called the graafschaap of the Tribal People), when the local indigens were holding a livestock festival of great affair, and once there I offered a local radio station presenter an interview in connection with my research on this subject in in the Kingdom of the Netherlands. You may listen to a digital recording of that interview at the following location: |Ballinasloe Radio|Battle of Aughrim Series Pt.1| It is my endearing memory that they are most uninterested about it all, and would rather it all just went away - notwithstanding the many opportunities for tourism their little-leprechaun treasure represents. It is my understanding, however, that the forces of Dublin Castle are altogether more interested in promoting the site at the other (rather inconsequential skirmish) at the Co Louth site: that is more proximite to those powers-that-be in the southern statelet, and which more often than not, approaches its many adversaries under the guise of the indigens' laws, which they (naturally enough) control completely. All of the land surrounding the Wald Disney showpiece site at the Skirmish of the Boyne was, equally naturally, rezoned for the purposed of the multi-million investment of the Office of Public Works, under the command of the younger brother of the Leader of the Irish Republic, Patrick Bartholomew "Bertie" Ahern, TD, An Taoiseach, the Minister Noel Ahern TD (of the day). Barentsz ( talk) 23:52, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
The picture of a "bonfire preparation" is nothing more than a pile of rubble. I'm no fan of The Twelfth, but many bonfires are quite well structured for safety and stability, and that should be acknowledged in the imagery chosen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.246.209 ( talk) 08:36, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
The article mentions only the 12th (or its substitute Monday if falling on a weekend), but it appears to be a 2-day holiday, as most businesses are closed in N.Ireland on the 13th as well. Unfortunately, other than the US Embassy website [1], where they list the holidays for the Consulate in Belfast, I can't find an official source for this. Slowmover ( talk) 14:15, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
I thought there were riots in 2010, 2011 and 2012 because of loyalist parades for the Twelfth in Ardoyne. 2010: 55 PSNI wounded, 2011: 25 PSNI wounded, 2012: 30 PSNI wounded in 24 hours. Why does the article say the parades were peaceful in the last few years? -- Nicholas Urquhart ( talk) 17:13, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
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