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Great play, but what about calling a foul for unnecessary roughness against the poor trombone player ;-)—Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.189.247.180 ( talk • contribs) 00:41 19 June 2006 (UTC)
PKtm, saying that the referees had the option of awarding Cal the touchdown due to the band's interference is not a point of view statement. GeorgeC 18:29, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, but the referee of the game, Charles Moffett, himself has stated that, per NCAA rules, the option to award Cal the touchdown had Moen not crossed the goal line was open to them. (Link to Moffett's quote). Scroll down to near the end of the article. Thus, it is not a POV statement. GeorgeC 20:20, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Sorry too, but come on, adding 186 words of the quote itself actually makes it more of a POV thing. What's next? Someone else adds in statements from Stanford partisans about how poor the officiating was? NPOV is not about just making sure that all the facts for your side are in the article as many times as you can, and it's not about adding more words to explain. The quote is available elsewhere; it makes perfect sense to provide a link to it, but it doesn't need to consume this part of the article.
The point is that what might have happened is pretty irrelevant. Let's stick to what did happen. And thanks for the vote, Melchoir, always great to hear, but sorry too, you actually confirmed my point. The whole purpose of the mention of the ref's quote is to support the very POV statement "Cal deserves to have won." Let's get things out of the article that support either side in that way. -- PKtm 01:39, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Melchoir, I disagree that Moffett's quote is excessive, nor do I agree that Starkey's call is too long.
As for the controversy, I endeavored to present all sides. It was a controversial call, of course, and there were hard feelings on the Stanford side, as you could probably imagine. In my opinion, all of this is relevant to the issue. GeorgeC 03:08, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Come on: what comes across is anything but a fair representation of all sides, frankly. It totally reads like a Cal partisan wrote it. (And this, coming from me, a Cal grad). The Stanford arguments are each put up there with one sentence, and then each one is knocked down, with all sorts of cited sources, and now with even dozens of sentences to hammer home the point. What an embarrassment, I feel, for true Cal partisans, who should be bending over backwards to preserve NPOV and let the reader decide. Instead, you've got to hit that reader over the head, push him towards one and only one conclusion, with more more more. Think of how you'd react if it were the opposite.
Let's move the ref's quotes to a footnote, as Melchoir suggests, and rewrite or eliminating the sentence(s) about the ref's likelihood of ruling a touchdown no matter what (since "could have" really doesn't count for much). Equally, the extended Elway quote is out of place and should be removed or condensed. The Starkey call transcript, while totally POV of course, is historical and fascinating and should, in my mind, be preserved as such. Otherwise, though, this stuff is all out there on Wikiquote. -- PKtm 04:10, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
I would like a specific source for the Elway quote that "This was an insult to college football... They [the officials] ruined my last game as a college football player." I knew John at the time, and talked to him two or three days after the game. At that point, I was fairly upset about it, but John was completely calm and accepting about it, far less upset than I was. This makes me wonder about the validity of the quote. I know this quote is widely attributed to him, but is there a generally accepted print or video source for it? I'm not suggesting that my recollections should be trusted over documented history; I'm just asking if the history is documented. 204.120.62.127 ( talk) 18:40, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
I don't favor any side. I stated the circumstances of the event, then, where appropriate, I presented the views of all sides — not mine. Therefore, the article is not skewed.
Do what you will, PKtm. I stand by my work. Why not do as I suggested? GeorgeC 08:05, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Whoops, edit conflict over here... Without having seen the last three four comments (sorry), I've made some changes to the article. I moved Joe Starkey's call to the bottom of the article, not because I have anything against it, but simply because I don't like long quotes to break up exposition and analysis. Elway's and the ref's quotes I abstracted and moved to Wikiquote, with links. I cleaned up some of the more provocative language, and I removed the quotes from "The Play" wherever I found them; why undermine the title of the article?
Melchoir
09:06, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
You did a good job. I'm not wanting to get into a pissing contest here. Peace, friend. GeorgeC 09:21, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Meh, my work here is done. I can't get worked up over the quote where it is, so you two can do what you will. Cheers! Melchoir 19:10, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Not to start a new POV discussion, but I've changed the line reading "The primary objection is that Dwight Garner's knee was down before he lateraled to Richard Rodgers." As i read this, it is presented as a fact that his knee was down. However, this is the POV (in this case Stanford's). Imho, it is therefore more correct to write "Primarily it was claimed that Dwight Garner's knee was down before he lateraled to Richard Rodgers." -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.213.186.191 ( talk • contribs) March 7, 2006
Please don't revert back to a version that purports to claim that the last lateral was in fact a forward pass. There is NO documented evidence on this point other than the Merc News reporters review. On the other hand, several sports shows, including those on the anniversary of the Play and more recently the ABC/ESPN "Pontiac's Ultimate Play" award show during the Big 12 Championship that reviewed the Play with more accurate video techniques and determined the lateral at worst was directly across the 25 yard line. (Sorry that I don't have a link reference to that program--I can only say that it's in ABC's library as with any reference material and that the show is properly referenced, and that I saw that show.) The other option is to leave out any reference to this and simply state, "the reader is left to viewing the video to determine for him- or herself as to the legality of the final lateral." Certainly I can't find any other reference that disputes its legality, and that is REQUIRED to be included in this passage. Otherwise it is simply the writers unsubstantiated opinion and is not allowed in Wikipedia.
Also note that the NCAA guidance on illegal interference is clear--if no legal defender is downfield of the offense, the runner is awarded a touchdown. This is in place so that players on the bench can't jump out on the field and tackle a break away runner. The most famous occurrence of this is in a Cotton Bowl game in the 1950s (shown often on ABC in their college football bloopers reel in the 1960s and 70s.) Viewing the video, it's clear that the Stanford Band has already interfered with the play beyond the 20 yard line.
Sorry if this all sounds like an argument defending the Play, but if counterpoints are raised questioning its legality, a balanced description should include the counterarguments that put to rest those claims. Otherwise it's a bit like putting into the story about the first landing on the moon that it was staged in a TV studio and never actually occurred. That MIGHT be true, but highly remote. Gvharrier 16:56, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Just a question about the use of plurals in this article: because some of the laterals should have been ruled as illegal forward passes. Another dispute is whether Cal ball carriers were tackled before they threw those passes. It is my understanding that the Stanford players only argued one instance of a tackle before a pass. Moreover, i think only one of the lateral passes was argued as being a possible illegal forward pass. See [1] RoguePat 08:57, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
In the absence of any evidence of "The Play" referring to anything other than the subject of this article in national media, I am reverting 129.15.76.123's changes. Melchoir 23:42, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I think that the word that was censored in the paragraph should be not censored. I just need to know the word. Baseracer 00:26, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Calling other similar plays as "inspired" by The Play sounds a bit off to me. The Play is not something anyone can hope to purposefully duplicate. "Similar Plays" or something like that would be more appropriate? 131.107.0.73 19:51, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I know you have an axe to grind, 67.112.196.4, but we can't just play with the numbers without sources. Where are they? Melchoir 20:32, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Look, this is an encyclopedia. It's not our job to assign our own yard numbers to the events in question. If you can't find a source for the numbers, they have to be removed. And as long as the article lacks a References section citing reliable sources, it's original research. Melchoir 23:13, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Just a little thing. The article saying that Cal "presumably" declined should just say they declined, because accepting would have led to the kickoff being replayed with something like a 10 yard penalty, so the penalty was obviously declined-- Puckeater8 00:54, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Often officials will "decline" a penalty for a team if the play's outcome was obviously better than the penalty, e.g., scoring a touchdown. Gvharrier 21:14, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
The copy and paste of the play by play call is a copyvio and has been removed. Radio and TV sports telecasts are copyrighted, use a short key quotation and self written prose to make the point instead. -- Dual Freq 19:42, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Controversy section is partisan, especially paragraph reading, "The video evidence is somewhat more definitive . . . . may have gone straight sideways." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.188.92.37 ( talk) 02:50, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
I have edited this section to attempt to be more balance. Closer video review has shown conclusively that the last lateral was legal, as shown during the 2003 Pontiac awards program.
I've also added a reference that this is issue is moot in any case because on-field interference would have meant that Cal would have been awarded the touchdown at that point under NCAA rules. Note that there are several other instances of this type of ruling, the most famous being the tackle off the bench in the 1950s in a Texas game that ABC loved to show.
I have to admit that I'm really sorry to see that Stanford fans are still in such complete denial about this event and how every issue really has been settled, and in fact other matters such as the uncalled penalties only serve to reinforce the outcome of that event. Every game is replete with missed official calls, many of which are much more obvious than any of these might have been. It's just part of the game. Gvharrier 23:25, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Enough was enough. I've rewritten the Controversy section top to bottom. I was one of the original authors several years ago, but since then the section had become riddled with weasel words, POV judgments, WP:NOR violations, "Yes, but..." sentences, and a few flat out football whoppers. ("...offsetting penalties might have allowed the touchdown to stand"?? On what planet??!) The most recent edits on whether the officials could have awarded a TD to Cal regardless, IMO, finally pushed it over the edge; it was time to start anew. I split it into a main section discussing the three main bones of contention, and two subsections dealing with various analyses through the years and the officials' ruling.
I'd ask respectfully that future authors think twice, and then thrice, before making substantial edits to this section, to avoid the creeping-weasel problems we had earlier. If you must, start a new article called Controversies of "The Play", and nitpick it to death there.
Incidentally, and though this should not matter one bit, I have no connection to and utterly no rooting interest in either Cal or Stanford; I'm from the East Coast. The ad hominems like the one about "Stanford fans jumping to conclusions" as Gvharrier posted above, are truly loathesome and completely inappropriate for WP. We're trying to write an encyclopedia here and to get our facts right. Help us if you can, but please don't ascribe partisan motives just because some people disagree with your personal interpretation of what might be the most controversial play in the history of sports, save for the "Hand Of God" Goal. Dpiranha 22:47, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)
DumZiBoT ( talk) 12:35, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
I have removed the bolded text below:
It was removed for the following reasons: POV/charged, way too long for parentheses, makes the rest of the paragraph harder to understand, and is unreferenced (not even mentioning the receiver's name). If you can find a reference to this, it would be better to be rewritten and added to the Controversy section. -- Fo0bar ( talk) 04:04, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Two different names are given for the Trombonist who gets run over at the end:
"unaware trombone player Donovan Wackman"
and
"Gary Tyrrell, the Stanford trombonist who was run over by Moen"
So, Which was it?
65.122.250.18 ( talk) 23:24, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
Gary Tyrrell,
[1]
˜˜˜˜ — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
SteroidMoe (
talk •
contribs)
14:19, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
The entry says: "A few days later, blue and gold t-shirts depicting the play with Xs and Os (much like a coach's diagram) complete with squiggly lines for the laterals, appeared in the Cal bookstore and throughout the Bay Area." That is incorrect. Blue versions of the shirt appeared in the bookstore years later. The original shirts were goldenrod and sold by Alpha Sigma Phi fraternity in Berkeley. I still have mine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.191.72.138 ( talk) 05:29, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
Should something be added to the effect that if, after the last Stanford offensive play before the FG, while John Elway watched the clock tick down before calling time out, he had been a bit smarter and waited until 0:04 instead of calling the timeout at 0:08, this page wouldn't even be here? 68.5.176.101 ( talk) 05:00, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
The Situation section states: "the Stanford band, all 144 members, had run out past the south end zone". This seems needlessly specific, and probably inaccurate. From the videos, it looks like a lot of them were still in the end zone, most famously the trombonist. And they don't appear to be running. Spiel496 ( talk) 20:27, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
The article and the play by play mention the flags on the field, but never describe the resolution. As an eye witness, the explanation I heard at Memorial Stadium that day was there was a flag on the Stanford bench as the players stepped onto the field believing the ball was dead. The explanation I had heard from band members (Including the drum major trying to explain to the band director) was that the band had seen the players go onto the field, and took their lead with the assumption that the players would know what was going on. Clearly the axe was further down the field than most of the band members.
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 15:41, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
I find "California was denied the opportunity to kick the extra point." This isn't the NFL, where the option to try that extra point had to be provided even when the game outcome wouldn't be affected. (Some NFL tiebreakers use points for and points against.) Carlm0404 ( talk) 08:13, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
Gilbert was signed to the Buffalo Bills the four straight years they went to the Super Bowl (the 1990-93 seasons; 1991-94 Super Bowls). But he didn't play AT ALL in the 1991 and 1992 seasons, and seems to have made only one brief appearance in one game in 1993. (Not sure how many snaps he took in that game, but he neither threw nor ran the ball.) Most of those three years he was listed as "inactive" - didn't suit up for the game. He didn't play AT ALL in any of their postseasons - listed as inactive for most of those, too. He did, in fact, play for the 1994 San Diego Chargers, including in the postseason. 96.242.164.80 ( talk) 21:19, 15 February 2024 (UTC)