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I propose to merge Aram Andonian to this article. The only claim to fame of Andonian is his authorship of this book, and apart from one brief sentence in the Aram Andonian article, all its content is about the book and the telegrams therein. -- Lambiam 20:28, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
I also strongly propose to merge Aram Andonian to this article. What is wrong with merging the author and what he wrote? ( Karpuzpeynir ( talk) 17:42, 8 January 2008 (UTC))
I am strongly against a merge of the articles The Memoirs of Naim Bey with Aram Andonian. This proposal shows complete disregard for the upmost interesting biography of Aram Andonian and his works - journalistic as well as novels. He was an eyewitness to the Armenian Genocide and the Balkan wars. If you have ever seen his Armenian book on the Balkan Wars which was reedited recently in Turkish (!) [ [1]] you would quickly agree with me. The Balkan Wars led to WWI. Because of the Balkan Wars there were so many moacirs (displaced Muslims from the Balkans who simply became Christian haters; they were settled in Armenian provinces - either out of necessity or of power play of the Ottoman government or both....
The Memoirs of Naim Bey [in the original Armenian edition: Մեծ Ոճիրը; The Great Crime] are just one chapter. Make a link in his works to the article The Memoirs of Naim Bey. And you can write pages and pages about the authenticity (main subject of revisionists) and the differences of the French, English editions and the Armenian original.
From a biographic point of view (he was deported to Çankırı in 1915, escaped, only to join another deportation caravan to Aleppo and further into the deserts and death camps and witnessed all the horrors) he is important. From a historic point of view (Historiy of the Balkan Wars [Պատկերազարդ Ընդարձակ Պատմութիւն Պալքանեան Պատերազմին]) he is still important and stays still from a literary point of view (In those dark days, his Shirvanzadeh Biography [Շիրվանզադէ. Կենսագրական Նօթեր]) there is a LOT more to write about Aram Andonian. Read what Hagop Oshakan, Armenian literary critic using Freudian theories, has written about the literary works of Aram Andonian. And you will see I am right! Apocolocynthosis ( talk) 23:58, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
A Turkish scholar doesn't want to enter into a debate over authenticity at the moment but stresses: It is possible to prove that at least some of the published and unpublished documents in the possession of scholars share the same contents as documents published by Andonian... p. 378 Taner Akçam: A Shameful Act: The Armenian Genocide and the Question of Turkish Responsibility, Metropolitan Books, New York 2006 ISBN 978-0-8050-7932-6 --> To be continued in the forthcoming book Denial and Rewriting History by Taner Akçam. Apocolocynthosis ( talk) 00:19, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
@78.160.152.145 - I suggest you delete the chapter The forgeries of Aram Andonian or integrate its content properly with a sentence or two and notes into the text. What you did is copy paste not to say almost vandalism. This is not appropriate. Apocolocynthosis ( talk) 13:29, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
To whomever copypasted the material, welcome to wiki, you are welcome to contribute, but you can't copy-paste material from websites. Please see WP:Copyright VartanM ( talk) 04:29, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
I have removed this section because it seems to be original research. The cited sources do not make the assertion that the telegrams "help acquit Tehlirian" - in fact the trial transcript indicates that the telegrams played no part in the trial because the judge stated that it was Tehlirian, not Talat, who was on trial.
VON GORDON — In refutation of this point, I would like to present five telegrams from the Vice-governor of Aleppo, Syria.
(von Gordon wishes to put said telegrams on the court table)
VON GORDON — I would like to read two of these telegrams as proof of this point. Professor Lepsius has examined these telegrams.
PRESIDING JUSTICE — You would be anticipating the evidence if you were now to read these telegrams.
VON GORDON — At least I would like to mention the contents of these telegrams. The telegrams prove that Talaat personally gave the orders to massacre alt the Armenians including women and children. Originally the order was given to spare only those children who were too young to remember what had happened to their parents. However, in March 1916 this order was rescinded as it was felt that these children could, in the future, turn out to be a dangerous element in the community.
The witness Andonian can testify to the authenticity of these telegrams. He obtained them directly from the office of the Vice-governor of Aleppo after the British occupation. Then he placed them at the disposal of the Armenian Delegation.
I personally feel it is important, essential in fact, that the Jurors accept the defendants belief that Talaat was the responsible party and the author of the Armenian Genocide. If the Jurors are willing to accept this, then I am willing to waive the reading of these telegrams.
DISTRICT ATTORNEY — I feel that the motion should be denied. Even though great latitude was granted to discuss this subject, nevertheless, it is not the purpose of this body, nor is it within its competence, to come to a historic decision pertaining to the guilt or innocence of Talaat and the extent of his involvement in the massacre of the Armenians. The essential point is that the defendant believed that Talaat was the responsible party and thus the motive becomes fully clear.
VON GORDON — In view of the position taken by the District Attorney and the effect it has had on the jurors, I would like to cancel my motion to have these telegrams read into the record.
Meowy 18:35, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Do the writings of Richard Albrecht, such as his Crime/s Against Mankind, Humanity and Civilisation cited as source in the article, qualify as reliable sources? As far as I can see all of it is self-published and has not been subjected to peer review. Please correct me if I'm mistaken. -- Lambiam 12:12, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
Naim Bey, if he exists, is only notable in the context of these memoirs. There's not enough known about him to warrant an individual article. I propose we merge that article into this one. DoctorKubla ( talk) 07:50, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
The reason this cannot be used as an article of the denial machine of the current Turkish government, is that Niall Ferguson, the famous Scottish historian from Harvard and Stanford has confirmed that this document was legit. A point which is also corroborated by the selective use of sources without mentioning their origin inside this article. Also, from now on, if someone is Turkish, then confirm this, instead of hiding it. -- 92slim ( talk) 20:46, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
Türkkaya Ataöv is a revisionist as testified by the title of most of his books and his affiliation with the tr:TTK and other revisionist organizations; 'Armenian document forgery' by Türkkaya Ataöv, 2006, ISBN 9944-1-0908-8. Please stop including him as a source. Further proof (included here before):
-- 92slim ( talk) 17:28, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
The analysis of Şinasi Orel and Süreyya Yuca also cannot be included as they belong to the denialist think tank Institute for Armenian Research (EREN). Proof:
-- 92slim ( talk) 17:32, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
In the authenticity section it says: "Historian Vahakn N. Dadrian, born in Turkey and raised in the US, has argued in 1986 that the points brought forth by Turkish historians are misleading and has countered the discrepancies they have raised."
But nowhere in the text are these points, brought forth by Turkish historians, given, or any points against the authenticity. I think I remember that there used to be some points made by Sinasi Orel and Sureyya Yuca in this article but they seem to be deleted. Only points in support of the authenticity are left in the article.
Furthermore the article calls Guenter Lewy, a notorious genocide denier and lists anyone doubting the authenticity under the head "revisionism", calling them "notorious" and "deniers" as if a list of criminals. Again none of the actual points against the authenticity are anywhere given. Among scholars there are serious doubts about the authenticity of the papers. Even those that support recognition of the Armenian genocide. It is a shame that this article is hijacked by POV warriors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.151.65.45 ( talk) 07:35, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
The article has a chapter titled 'Authencity', in which they proceed to explain why the Memoirs are indeed reliable. To top it off, the chapter is then followed by a chapted titled 'Revisionism' and in which they begrudgingly mention the views of scholars like Zurcher. Shouldn't a chapter titled 'Authencity' start by describing that the reliability of the Memoirs is doubted by many serious scholars? That's the entire point of the chapter, the fact that the Memoirs are thought to be fakes.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Freakiejason ( talk • contribs) 14:57, 3 May 2016 (UTC)