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Took the initiative to create the article, but it needs desperate improvement as I only copied the content from the Tantura article. Too much attention is given to the controversy in Israeli scholarship circles but barely any on the actual massacre, which was reported and documented by several Arab writers and historians decades earlier.
Makeandtoss (
talk)
21:50, 22 January 2022 (UTC)reply
I will appreciate if someone can email the Haaretz news-article to me. I have never edited IPA topics and do not plan to; mere personal curiosity. TIA.
TrangaBellam (
talk)
05:22, 23 January 2022 (UTC)reply
WikiProject assessments for quality and importance
I have downgraded this article from B-class to C-class quality because the article appears to be mostly about an academic debate and court case over whether the event occurred or not. There is no coverage to really back up the introductory statement in the lead section. Indeed, the lead section presents new information that is not even explained in the article. I expect this article to tell me about the event in the title; Who was involved, What happened, When the event happened, Where it happened, Why it happened, and How it happened. I do not expect just to find a controversy about academic freedoms over reporting whether the event happened or not, because that is really a different article and should be under a different title.
Wikipedia is not censored and what should be told is what Katz and the survivors alleged happened, what the Alexandroni veterans said and denied in response and a balance of views from all sides involved. I know it is a tall ask but I would like to see contemporary citations from the 1950's including good citations of the original books and papers that Katz, Galat, and Nimr al-Khatib and others might have published at the time these events occurred, rather than just a re-examination of the evidence and the controversy from 50 years later. Perhaps even C-class is generous of me, and this article might only be a Start-class article, but this assessment level does allow the B-class questions to be asked and answered in relevant WikiProjects. -
Cameron Dewe (
talk)
00:38, 25 January 2022 (UTC)reply
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Tantura massacre → Tantura controversy – No massacre has been confirmed. The recent Tantura film is presented as 100% confirming that a massacre happened, even though many of the veterans interviewed actually denied that there was a massacre. Academic
Yoav Gelber, who was interviewed in the movie, said that the film was flawed[1][2] None of the RS describe the film as "confirming" a massacre (nor does the film, which implies a massacre happened but never jumps to an explicit conclusion), meaning that such wording is
WP:OR.
Please keep in mind that all of the article's content (except for the lede) is contained inside the "historiography" section, so "controversy" would probably be the better term.
Oppose. Every massacre is denied by someone. That is insufficient reason to change the title. You are correct that the number of victims is uncertain, but that's a different issue.
Zerotalk01:57, 5 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Not "trying to defend the perpetrators". Before this film came out Wikipedia portrayed what happened in Tantura as a matter of scholarly debate, and never explicitly said there was a massacre, just that some scholars argued there was while others didn't. Then a random movie was screened in January, and for some reason editors decided it was proof that there was a large-scale massacre (even though the film itself was criticized by scholars like Gelber).
Dunutubble (
talk) (
Contributions)
13:53, 5 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Benny Morris said in his interview with
Ari Shavit:
There is no unequivocal proof of a large-scale massacre at Tantura, but war crimes were perpetrated there.[1]
Ih his review of
Ilan Pappé,
Efraim Karsh goes so far to call the massacre "Nonexistent".[2] (I know Meforum isn;t the best source and I really don't like it, but it's by Efraim Karsh, who is a well-known scholar).
Yes, it is unclear to me if Benny Morris has actually voiced an opinion on the matter subsequent to the most recent testimony, but I think not.
Iskandar323 (
talk)
15:09, 5 June 2022 (UTC)reply
In any case, even if were not a massacre, a move to 'controversy' would still be imprecise. It is still an evidenced site of ethnic cleansing.
Iskandar323 (
talk)
15:12, 5 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose: Just seems like a shift from precision to vagueness. There is witness testimony of a massacre. The only real 'controversy' is over the extent of it.
Iskandar323 (
talk)
06:59, 5 June 2022 (UTC)reply
You can't confirm an event using only oral testimony. Not a single RS said that the movie meant the massacre was confirmed. Even the film itself said that they weren't completely certain there was a massacre.[3]Dunutubble (
talk) (
Contributions)
13:43, 5 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Lots of historical massacres are confirmed only by oral testimony. Here we have not just eye-witnesses but admissions of perpetrators.
Zerotalk14:56, 5 June 2022 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
@
Levivich: Do we have sources explicitly saying Haganah? I think this is a minor technicality that is not supported by RS, given that Israel was declared on 14 May and the IDF supposedly officially on 26 May; this brief transition period is not given that much weight by RS, which call the perpetrator "Israeli forces".
[1],
[2].
Makeandtoss (
talk)
12:08, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Yes:
Ref #1: "Tantura itself fell within the zone of operation of the Alexandroni Brigade, one of the erstwhile Haganah's six Khish (field force) brigades (to be distinguished from its strike force, the three Palmach brigades) ... The task of capturing Tantura was assigned to the Alexandroni Brigade's 33d Battalion."
Ref #10: "...on 22-23 May 1948, some 200 unarmed Tantura villagers, mostly young men, were shot dead after the village had surrendered following the onslaught of Haganah troops."
Ref #27: "A week later, on the night of 22-23 May 1948, Tantura was attacked and occupied by the Thirty-Third Battalion of the Alexandroni Brigade. The village leadership had previously refused to adhere to the surrender terms of the Haganah, which was in the process of being absorbed into the soon to be established Israeli army, and the village fell after an intense battle overnight."
Levivich (
talk)
14:19, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Levivich: It seems we have RS citing both Haganah and Israeli forces (given that Israel had been supposedly established on 14 May), so why not both? So I would suggestion something around: "massacred by Israel's Haganah, namely the Alexandroni Brigade" in the opening paragraph.
Makeandtoss (
talk)
15:29, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Yes that makes sense, the article should say "Israel" in the lead. Maybe also specify the 33rd Battalion? The article should be specific when saying who carried out a massacre. Maybe also it would be good to explain somehow what Haganah was and save the reader the click. Like "by the 33rd Battallion of the Alexandroni Brigade, part of the Haganah, Israel's army at the time" or "...part of Israel's Haganah, the precursor to the IDF" or something like that? My only concern is that we not say the Alexandroni Brigade was part of the IDF at the time.
Levivich (
talk)
17:16, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
According to the
official website of the Alexandroni brigades and a tombstone placed in the area, 14 soliders of the brigades died in battle by sniper fire and more.
The village was also used as a hub to smuggle weapons from Lebanon and a large number of its inhabitants were armed.
Bar Harel (
talk)
00:06, 31 July 2024 (UTC)reply