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Comments from Curly Turkey from FAC
While I do speak & read Japanese and live in Japan, my knowledge of taiko is extremely casual—I'm checking prose and formatting rather than comprehensiveness or whatever.
It's not a good idea to set the sizes of images; logged-in users can set image size in the preferences, but this is overridden when the image sizes are set in the article. Everyone has different screen sizes and dimensions, so it's not a good idea to judge from your own screen.
Did you know that if you formatted your refs as {{sfn|Turnbull|2008|p=37}} instead of {{sfn|Turnbull 2008|p=37}} you could do "| ref=harv" instead of "| ref={{sfnRef|Turnbull 2012}}" and let the software format it all for you? I'm not suggesting you bother with this article---just pointing it out to save you work in the future.
I was aware of this, and it was giving me trouble for some reason; I kept getting broken links using the author and year in some cases piped separately. No doubt the problem was my own fault, I just wanted it to work. But I'll keep this in mind.
I, JethroBTdrop me a line19:47, 8 December 2014 (UTC)reply
On a similar topic,
bundling your sources is much more reader-friendly; since you're using {{sfn}}s anyways, it's particularly easy to do with {{sfnm}}.
often used to refer to any of the various Japanese drums: "often" and not almost always? I doubt an English speaker would refer to non-Japanese drums as taiko
during the 6th century in the
Kofun period: the
Kofun period article says the period ended in 538; "during the 6th century"; do the sources specifically say the Kofun period?
In contemporary times, taiko have played a central role in social movements for minorities both within and outside Japan.: has this been a big enough deal (a big enough part of these movements) to make it lead-worthy?
I do think this point is lead worthy, as there are a number of regular and academic publications that focus on the instrument in the context of social movements (not all are used in the article at this time due to access issues):
During the
Sengoku period, specific drum calls: what's the "Sengoku period", and when was it? Most English speakers aren't familiar with Japanese history. You could do something simple like "During the 16th-century [[Sengoku period|Warring States period]]" (while technically it was c. 1467 – c. 1603 I don't think you need to get that hairsplitting for the purposes of this article---we just need to orient the reader)
According to the Gunji Yoshu: do you know the kanji for "Gunji Yoshu"? I'm not asking for it to be put in the article, I just want to know---though you should probably describe what this was
Not at all necessary, but I like to use the {{ill}} template in these situations to (a) direct readers to an existing interwiki article; and (b) encourage somehwat to translate that article by providing a redlink. If someone does create teh en.wp article, the interwiki link automagically disappears.
Curly Turkey¡gobble!04:42, 15 December 2014 (UTC)reply
If it doesn't take an undue amount of space, it would be good to give a brief description of gagaku, kagura, and the bon odori, and how taiko are used in them
@
Curly Turkey: You have a good point here, but I am little worried about getting out of scope. Suggestions on where these sections might best placed? One the one hand, they might fit under the history section before the section on kumi-daiko, but they might also better fit under the "In traditional settings" where I can keep the short.
I, JethroBTdrop me a line00:36, 10 December 2014 (UTC)reply
I wasn't thinking of anything particularly in-depth, just brief one-sentence-ish descriptions to orient the reader—the reader should only have to click through if they're interested in learning about the subject of the link in-depth, no to find out what it means.
Curly Turkey¡gobble!01:10, 10 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Done. There's a ton of detail that could go into this, about his travels through Japan and meeting other groups. His experience on the island appears to be most relevant though; additional details is more appropriate for a bio of
Den Tagayasu.
I, JethroBTdrop me a line20:51, 10 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Their first performance occurred just after the group finished running the
Boston Marathon while wearing their traditional uniforms.: meaning they ran the marathon in their uniforms?
Many taiko are not tunable, and a drum with high head tension would counteract the slacking effects of humidity.: "would" makes it sound like conjecture in this case
that are stave constructed: is there something good to link to here? I have no idea what "stave construction" is
Not really— the difference is that some taiko are shaped from an tree trunk, and others are built using lengths of wood (i.e. staves). I've looked at the article on
woodworking and related topics, but couldn't find anything sensible to link to. I guess we could just link to
Stave (wood), but the article is not in a good way.
I, JethroBTdrop me a line07:13, 10 December 2014 (UTC)reply
I am astounded that {{convert}} handles shaku; the folk who work on that template deserve a round of applause---I have yet to find an edge case that thing couldn't handle
numbered 1 to 5 with names: "namitsuke", "nichō-gakke", "sanchō-gakke", "yonchō-gakke", and "gochō-gakke": most won't realize that most of the names are based on numbers
I think it would, though it would be ideal to explicate that the names themselves include the numbers (I suppose "nami" implies "one", but only in the context of the others being explicitly numbered).
Curly Turkey¡gobble!07:57, 10 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Okedō are played using the same or similar bachi: bachi have not yet been introduced, so this will set heads a-scratch
The tsuri-daiko (釣太鼓) is a smaller drum: no translation of "tusri-daiko"? (perhaps "suspended drum"?) I assume it's called that because of the way it's hung in a frame, but the text says "when the drum is suspended on a stand", which seems to suggest it sometimes isn't suspended---is that the case?
Done. This was a misread of the source text on my part when I wrote this some time ago; the instrument is always suspended, and the player is sitting down while it is being played. The source text from Miki reads that In gagaku, the performer sits to play the tsuri-daiko which I thought meant the instrument was played flat to the ground. After checking out some images of the instrument being played, like
this one, it's clear the player is still sitting while performing. I've rephrased this accordingly. I also learned that 釣 can apparently refer to trolling?
I, JethroBTdrop me a line23:45, 10 December 2014 (UTC)reply
It's lasted more than a month and hasn't gotten in the least better, but the doctor thinks it's just a pinched nerve or something and not to worry about. I've been reviewing the
pancreatic cancer FAC, so guess what was going through my head?
Curly Turkey¡gobble!01:10, 10 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Body (cont'd)
something needs to be done about italicization—many unassimilated foreign terms are unitalicized, and some terms ("kumi-daiko") are sometimes italicized and sometimes not
I think it'd be better to frame the differences as more of a general thing rather than specifically on the rhythms. Getting into rhythm becomes overly technical I think, especially considering that this all is basically coming from just a few sources. Admittedly the differences in rhythm are not that stark. Shin-daiko has underlying rhythms that tend to be faster (and are also louder) in comparison to Kumaoji-daiko. I'd like to stick with that, and also add into this section a note on how stance is different between the two.
I, JethroBTdrop me a line14:36, 22 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Done. The
source refers to one group, San Jose Taiko, so I'll simply say here that stabilization can be accomplished through this low stance rather than refer to how often it is used. I've also added the Varian (2013) source that suggests this stance, but does not indicate how frequently it is used. IMO, it is a pretty common stance in my experience performing and watching other groups, but I can't find a source specifying how common it is.
I, JethroBTdrop me a line04:29, 15 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Done. I've added a few more points on form with regard to the shoulders and hips of the player. And yes, I've been performing for about 4 years; we have a ragtag group here in Chicago called Kaiju Daiko (怪獣太鼓) that's somewhere between amateur and semi-professional. Japanese folks are a bit taken aback by the name, but they get it once we start playing— we try to play big. We've played at some decent venues in the city, but we're nowhere near as disciplined or skilled as many groups.
I, JethroBTdrop me a line06:31, 15 December 2014 (UTC)reply
which refers to very specific kinds of movement while performing: "iki" itself "refers to very specific kinds of movement while performing"? I know how difficult it is to sum up terms from
Japanese aesthetics, but a bit more elaboration would be helpful
such as the shime grip: which is? Also, I wonder if a pronunciation guide would be helpful—even I read this as /ʃaɪm/ before I realized it was a Japanese word (thus the importance of italicizing unfamiliar foreign words). Rather than cluttering up the body, perhaps a table of pronunciations could be thrown in?
Checking... Perhaps the pronunciation table could be integrated into the glossary you mentioned below? I actually don't really know IPA that well, so I may need some help with this one.
I, JethroBTdrop me a line00:04, 12 December 2014 (UTC)reply
I'd personally like to see IPA, and I think international audiences would appreciate it, but I realize North Americans in particular tend to be IPA-illiterate, so phonics-like guide would also be helpful. I'll see if I can hunt down a standardized version rather than make stuff up. It's the New Year's holidays, though, so I may take more time than I'd like to to get this done. Ping me if you think I'm taking to long—just in case I've forgotten.
Curly Turkey¡gobble!08:12, 26 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Category of hourglass-shaped drums that are rope-tensioned
Two concerns I have relate to the fact that I haven't really seen glossaries all that often on articles. I'm not against this idea, but I am concerned about 1) whether readers can easily find this (i.e. the bottom of the page does not seem ideal), and 2) what degree we should focus on correct pronunciation of Japanese in this article.
I, JethroBTdrop me a line00:01, 27 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Well, I suggested it to unclutter the article, because there are so many of these terms throughout, and in the case of shime and others it's not obvious to non-Japanese speakers how to pronounce it. Also, since there are so many terms, I think it would be nice to have a glossary anyways, and I think it would make for easier reading to bounce the kanji out of the prose. As for pronunciation, I think we should go with English-like pronunciation for the respelling and Japanese pronunciation for IPA, but not get hairsplitting with it.
Curly Turkey¡gobble!01:45, 27 December 2014 (UTC)reply
@
Curly Turkey: Thanks for adding the pronunciations and fixing my attempts. I think that's reasonable, and you're right, there are a lot of terms here. It would be nice to transition some of the kanji out from the prose section. Are there other terms you think we should include here? I've only included the terms that are most common; we could make it comprehensive, but I think it's OK to leave some kanji in the body. One other term that might be worth putting in is one for the tsuzumi (鼓), a category of hand drums, since some of its types of are discussed in the categorization section.
I, JethroBTdrop me a line04:23, 27 December 2014 (UTC)reply
@
Curly Turkey: Also, I've taken care of the issue with the shime grip. I had to rewrite this section because I had apparently misread the source from Vogel (2009) and also found some additional detail in the Varian (2013) publication.
I, JethroBTdrop me a line07:23, 27 December 2014 (UTC)reply
The way the bachi are held is also significant in the context of
Buddhism. For some groups, bachi represent a spiritual link between the body and the sky.: can this be elaborated?
Done. Not this point specifically, but the more general point can be made that physical objects like the taiko body, skin, and byo all are symbolically significant in Buddhism. There's a bit more about taiko and Buddhism in another source that I've added as well.
I, JethroBTdrop me a line19:17, 12 December 2014 (UTC)reply
called
kakegoe or
kiai: this could be interpreted as "kakegoe" and "kiai" being synonyms
there has been literature published on taiko performance based on Japanese standards: based on Japanese standards of performance, standards of criticism, standards of...?
typically improvised musical composition: are "improvised" and "composition" not contradictory?
Done. Changed from "musical composition" to "rhythms."
Are there really only two regionally styles worth mentioning?
Checking... Kumi-daiko dominates the literature because of its popularity; there was precious little I've found on regional varieties. These are folk traditions, and as such, do not get much in the way of coverage. I'll give another look around to see what I can dig up, though.
I, JethroBTdrop me a line05:30, 12 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Well, if there's a paucity of literature, perhaps the "Regional styles" section could begin with a brief section giving an overview of what little you can find as examples, and then introduce the subsections.
Curly Turkey¡gobble!05:10, 15 December 2014 (UTC)reply
I've removed the "lit." and "trans." from the translations---"literally" almost never means quite what people think it does, and "trans." is just redundant. Another issue with it I've just found is 三の鼓 trans. "hourglass drum"---it may be called an "hourglass drum" in English, but that sure ain't a translation of "三".
"Third hand drum" is probably best here, if the goal is literal translations from the kanji. I don't always think literal translations are the best though-- "third hand drum" seems disorienting to me as a reader, and leaves me asking, "what about the other two?" The problem is that there are other drums, but precious little is written about them (in part because they have long been abandoned) and are pretty much out of scope for this article.
I, JethroBTdrop me a line00:47, 11 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Well, that translation was taken from
Jim Breen's WWWJDIC. My Casio XD ST4500 has this entry for 鼓: a kind of small shoulder drum which they tap with the finger tips. It seems like this is generally the case, with the exception of the 三の鼓. I'm thinking it might be better just to use a different example here, probably the 小鼓 since we have an image of it now.
I, JethroBTdrop me a line05:09, 11 December 2014 (UTC)reply
I see---the problem with that gloss is that it reads as "three hand drum" rather than three "hand drum". Maybe it is best to drop it---it doesn't seem too important to the article.
Curly Turkey¡gobble!05:24, 11 December 2014 (UTC)reply
I've removed the content on the san-no-tsuzumi and added in a new section on Noh instruments as I neglected to mention them at all in prose (yet it's on the table). I think this fits pretty well.
I, JethroBTdrop me a line06:34, 11 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Well, the Tangue Setsuko Taiko Dojo is the official name. We could change this to Tangue Setsuko founded an eponymous taiko dojo. Just trying to avoid the whole Tangue Setsuko founded the Tangue Setsuko Taiko Doko redundancy because it doesn't read well.
I, JethroBTdrop me a line00:43, 11 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Certain peoples have used taiko as a means: while there's nothing incorrect with the wording, keeping in mind that Wikipedia serves a general, international audience, I might choose a clearer term than "peoples" here
I remember mulling over this; the groups in the article are a gender, a social class in Japan, and an immigrant racial group in North America. I considered "societies," but that sounded too organized to me. These are such broad groups, "peoples" seemed apt in the sense that these are broad groups of people.
I, JethroBTdrop me a line06:52, 11 December 2014 (UTC)reply
of the social movement by third-generation: which social movement? I know it's explained, but the sentence seems unfinished somehow
while in the United States it was meant to be an explicit representation of masculinity and power in Japanese-Americans: despite the fact of high female participation?
Checking... I'll have to reread the Bronner source, but he focuses a bit more on the male experience of being Japanese in the U.S., particularly how they responded to perceptions that Japanese-American men were physically weak and soft-spoken (i.e. stereotypically feminine), and that taiko was a vehicle by which to combat those perceptions. I'll have to see if he discusses female particiption.
I, JethroBTdrop me a line06:52, 11 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Done. The chapter from Bronner exclusively focuses on the male experience in this case. That said, even some
other publications suggest that participating in taiko can be about strength for women as well: "Through performance, we're able to redefine the status quo ... not by denying the body but by redefining the body in terms of strength and discipline."I, JethroBTdrop me a line15:38, 27 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Related terms: I'm not sure about this section---it's very short, when it's obvious there are many more terms in the taiko vocabulary. Here's an idea: include all the pertinent terms throughout the article in a "Taiko glossary" section---even better, move all the kanji to this section, which'll free up the flow of the straight prose.
Taiko no Tatsujin: an entire section on this? That seems a bit
WP:UNDUE and over-detailed---yes, I'm aware of what a phenomenon the game is. Perhaps a "Cultural legacy" section? I'm sure taiko has shown up elsewere---is there taiko manga, for instance, or movies, TV shows, TV themes, do groups release CDs?
Checking... It's not in the GA nomination, but I seem to recall
ChrisGualtieri asking to add this section during the GA process (but I could be mistaken). I'll look into other cultural phenomena involving taiko, but this will take some time.
I, JethroBTdrop me a line07:28, 11 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Taiko no Tatsujin is much more of a hit in Japan than in North America with more than 30 different games and some tie in manga, and little anime shorts. Taiko do show up in other cultural works, just not as the focus. It is a good argument you make, unless something comes to balance the whole in sufficient detail - it is probably best to do an "in culture" section.
ChrisGualtieri (
talk)
15:37, 11 December 2014 (UTC)reply
It's a phenomenon and should be mentioned of course, but the level of detail is inappropriate for the taiko article (what consoles it was released on, etc). It really needs no more detail than a brief description of the gameplay and the fact that it's popular and has had numerous sequels.
I also haven't been able to find any other cultural work that ties in taiko real well, so for now, I don't think a "Cultural legacy" section is appropriate. IMO, kumi-daiko in general is the popular culture aspect of this instrument.
is there taiko manga, for instance, or movies, TV shows, TV themes, do groups release CDs? Yes, groups do release CDs, but I think those are better suited on the articles for those groups rather than the instrument page itself. I unfortunately can't find a lot of commentary about the phenomenon of taiko groups producing CDs generally.
the level of detail is inappropriate for the taiko article Agreed. I've pared this down based on your suggestions, but ultimately, I support moving this to the See Also section with just a link rather than creating a new section all on its own. What do you think?
Congratulations to all the contributors to this featured article. You deserve a lot of applause, recognition and appreciation. What a wonderful article.
A circa 1827 ukiyo-e print by
Yashima Gakutei showing a woman playing a tsuri-daiko hanging drum. The tsuri-daiko are a type of taiko drum that produce a low sound, and are commonly used in ensembles accompanying
bugaku court dances. They are suspended on a small stand, and are played while sitting.Painting:
Yashima Gakutei
There are a few other regional styles that could be listed, but I'm not sure if this is going too much into details.
Chichibu yatai bayashi is another regional style that could be listed. Bender talks about this on page 73.
Additionally, Oedo Sukeroku is often credited as its own style with its use of naname slant stands. Much of North American taiko is rooted in the style of Oedo Sukeroku. Bender refers to this on page 192.
24.63.251.4 (
talk)
22:29, 8 July 2023 (UTC)reply