Suwon was a Geography and places good articles nominee, but did not meet the
good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be
renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Cities, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
cities,
towns and various other
settlements on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CitiesWikipedia:WikiProject CitiesTemplate:WikiProject CitiesWikiProject Cities articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Korea, a collaborative effort to build and improve articles related to Korea. All interested editors are invited to
join the project and contribute to the
discussion. For instructions on how use this banner, please refer to the
documentation.KoreaWikipedia:WikiProject KoreaTemplate:WikiProject KoreaKorea-related articles
There is both a Yeongtong-dong and a Yeongtong-gu. Yeongtong-gu contains Yeongtong-dong and many other -dongs as well. I'll see if I can clarify this a little better.
Michael Lindberg 19:32, 30 January 2006
The current Yeongtong-gu was indeed once apart of Paldal-gu but the new developments in Yeongtong grew too big and the city split Paldal-gu into two. I grew up in Maetan-2-dong which is now technically part of Yeongtong-gu. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
99.254.33.110 (
talk)
04:25, 12 May 2010 (UTC)reply
This list includes people, e.g.
Ha Ji Won, who are listed in their own articles as being born elsewhere. I think citations may be needed throughout, but wonder if any more fluent Korean-speaking Wikipedian than I could check the list first. Thanks.
JPBarrass13:59, 14 October 2007 (UTC)reply
GA review
This article has a good start. However, there are several problems with the article.
The article is quite short, especially for a city of 1 million people. Prose of 7kb is really quite short.
The article lacks references
The history section needs to tell us when and how the city was formed and how it evolved. At the moment it only says that it was a failed candidate to be the captial of Korea. The city is no doubt the subject of wars in the past. During the Korean War it would have changed hands since the DPRK occupied the south right down to the southern coast.
Lead needs to be expanded and making the second sentence about a football club that is only 11 years old seems like undue weight
Source required for infobox stats
Too many one line sections. These need to be merged with other sections, unless they are expanded, which they should be,
Many one line paragraphs need to be expanded or merged.
Just wanted to get some opinions on this before I go changing it. I bike around the Wangsong reservoir most mornings (I live pretty close to it), and it does not seem to be within the Suwon area, at least according to the signs on the roads. Coming home from the reservoir, there is a sign that marks the beginning of Suwon about 200-300 meters south of the southernmost tip, so to me it seems that the entire reservoir is located pretty safely within the area of
Uiwang.
Checked the map, and indeed Wangsong is located wholly outside the northern border of Suwon. I'm removing it from the list.
Baeksu (
talk)
00:06, 19 June 2008 (UTC)reply
I have taken the liberty of reinstating Wangsong, as the border between Suwon and Uiwang is the stream which enters Wangsong Reservoir near the dam from the east. The border then continues just north of the dam (in the water), as you may confirm when conparing maps.naver.com's superior mapping of waterways with local.daum.net's addition of city boundaries (when zoomed some way out). I hope that clears things up. :)
JPBarrass (
talk)
15:51, 7 March 2010 (UTC)reply
"known by its English name Suigen". I have never once seen this used as a name for Suwon. It looks like some name dredged out of a nineteenth or early twentieth century source, and in any case mis-represents the Korean pronunciation. If by "English" is meant merely "By UK speakers," then it should say that, and not imply the totality of global English speakers. I will delete unless a rationale can be provided for the supposed name, or amend, so that it says, "Which once was known as, or which used to be known as...." etc etc.
Theonemacduff (
talk)
23:44, 1 December 2016 (UTC)reply
@
Toobigtokale Hi. Really sorry for the long silence. I'm in teaching, and our new semester has started, so it's been bonkers at work. I'm definitely interested, but I don't have as much time as during the holidays. I've totally put this on the back burner, but for too long, so I'll try to put in some effort over the weekend. Thanks for the kick-start, and sorry again for laying low for far too long.
JPBarrass (
talk)
05:51, 22 March 2024 (UTC)reply
No worries! Feel free to take at your pace. Although admittedly the need for the work of a Korean-language speaker in gathering new information for this article will be tricky. I may not have enough capacity to do so. If you can find someone to help that may be nice. Otherwise I can help you get as close as possible to GA, but without the extra information gathering I'm not sure it can pass; feel like the article needs more heft to it.
toobigtokale (
talk)
06:35, 22 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Jpbarrass, one teacher to another, don't knock yourself out! It's fine to have the review fail for now and then come back to it later when you have more time. But of course if this reminder has lit the fires of inspiration don't let me get in your way. --
asilvering (
talk)
18:32, 22 March 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Toobigtokale Thanks for that pointer. I'll give general heft a think. It could be difficult to balance building heft with not getting bogged down in unnecessary detail, though. My Korean's good enough for some solid Navering, so I'll see what I can come up with.
JPBarrass (
talk)
22:39, 22 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Agree. Still, looking at the Korean-language sources I link below, there's still some information that could make it into this document that I think most people would find interesting/useful.
toobigtokale (
talk)
22:42, 22 March 2024 (UTC)reply
I'll make some copyedits myself to the article. Some things I'll leave for you:
On Wikipedia, virtually every non-obvious fact should have a reference. Statements like it is often featured in the city and province's promotional materials. are currently unsourced, and sourcing them is a must for GA standards.
This even applies to bullet points in lists, especially the insects section. Each individual item in the list should be sourced, because people can add to lists in the future. Putting a source in the beginning can mask the fact that a future addition is actually unsourced.
The use of coordinates is a bit non-standard and I think unnecessary; it contributes to a
MOS:SEAOFBLUE problem.
I propose disabling repeated language labels via setting "labels=no" in
Template:Korean. Repeated labels add clutter without adding much needed info.
Read through
MOS:OVERLINK and apply here; repeat links is main culprit.
Many thanks for these comments. I've started working on some of these. So far, I've removed the comment about promotional materials, and another uncited claim I found. I've also referenced each species individually. Unfortunately I'd already reverted 'specific city' to 'special case city' before noticing that it was you who'd changed that. Sorry about that. I'm curious, though, as the city council calls itself 'Suwon Special Case City', so I thought that would be the appropriate term. I wonder what you thought about this. Thanks again for your advice regarding the article.
JPBarrass (
talk)
12:52, 29 January 2024 (UTC)reply
toobigtokale the excessive subsectioning and bullet points of each species linked to the SAME source, which
JPBarrass has embarked upon after your suggestuion is unsightly, counterproductive and unprecedented. Plain nuts. --
Wuerzele (
talk)
17:30, 29 January 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Wuerzele. Your comment is out of line. It's unacceptable to call the well-intended actions of another editor "plain nuts" like that. They made edits partially on my suggestion, which implicates me in that insult as well. Please be more respectful in future.
toobigtokale (
talk)
21:02, 29 January 2024 (UTC)reply
The irony of you commenting about incivility in your bio, meanwhile you behave like this here unprovoked. I have a handle on this review. It will go better without your input, please stop engaging.
toobigtokale (
talk)
19:53, 31 January 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Jpbarrass, sorry this is partially on me. Before you had engaged in all that additional work I should have said something. I thought you were just going to copy+paste the references and leave it at that.
I do agree that the bulleted list of species is too long. I think a relevent policy is this:
WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Whether or not the references contribute to the "unsightliness" is a different matter; lists should have references.
The indiscriminate lists should be replaced by either a condensed list or a
WP:PROSE section of the most important species to be aware of in the city. Think whatever texts would frequently mention exist in the city. Despite this, I'm still a little skeptical that the section is needed, as the flora/fauna in Korea tends to be relatively uniform (small country). In other words, is there anything unique/really notable about the flora/fauna in Suwon?
toobigtokale (
talk)
21:07, 29 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Many thanks for the feedback about this section. I agree that wildlife is fairly uniform. Since there are some differences in the country, though, e.g., Jeju, and mountainous areas, I've migrated this section to the
Gyeonggi Province page, which I thought could be a reasonable halfway house. I've also changed it into prose rather than a list. Here, I've left just the two species worth noting specifically in terms of Suwon.
JPBarrass (
talk)
02:55, 30 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Still some statements that are uncited, but I can provide more things to work in the meantime.
Overall:
Prose needs some polishing.
In general, try to use simple sentence structures and to put the main idea or important context at the very beginning of each sentence. e.g. "x is y", "x is important because", "During x time period, y happened."
I always unconsciously try to minimize the amount of commas that I use in my writing.
Be on the guard for run-on sentences. "X, and y" is usually where run-ons happen. If X can be made a standalone sentence, you should consider making it one; situational though.
It'll probably be hard to internalize this in the space of a GA review, so try your best and I'll eventually give the prose a revision.
History section is in rough shape.
It's not immediately clear what the significance of each paragraph is.
For example, second paragraph of the history section feels a bit out of place. The first sentence of the paragraph should also quickly inform the reader what the significance is, e.g. "During the blah, this Suwon was the site of blah important thing". There's no context provided for who Yi Gwang is and why the average reader who is not familiar with Korean history should be interested.
The minutia of reorganizing districts in "recent history" is a bit much. Think "what would the average person be interested in?" If there's something significant and relatable to the average person that happened as a result of the organization, that's worth including. Otherwise you can just handwave it away with "they reorganized administrative divisions" or something.
This applies to most of its paragraphs; the content in it doesn't really tell me substantial things about Suwon, feels like an assortment of minute details.
I may need to think through a strategy for revision. May need to go back to the drawing board to do some more research on what history readers might find useful.
Many thanks again: your advice is really useful. I've rehashed the history section this evening. Tomorrow, I'll try to look at the prose more generally throughout the article.
JPBarrass (
talk)
14:34, 31 January 2024 (UTC)reply
I really like the changes you've made to the history section! I think the pre-modern history needs to be fleshed out some more but it's definitely an improvement.
toobigtokale (
talk)
10:41, 1 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Many thanks. :) Regarding ancient history, I've found it a little tough to find anything Suwon-specific that isn't about Jeongjo and related stuff, so it's rather heavily focused on one king's reign. I'll do a bit more sleuthing, though.
I've gone through the rest of the article now, referencing uncited claims when I could, deleting them when I couldn't, and rehashing the prose somewhat.
JPBarrass (
talk)
15:05, 1 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Many thanks. I'm struggling to find non-Jeongjo-related ancient history. It's all rather focused on one King's reign, but everything we read about history in Suwon is always about him. I'll try to unearth something else that's Suwon-specific, though.
I've gone through the rest of the article trying to cite everything, removing claims that I couldn't reference, and working on flow.
Hmm. It said my comment hadn't been published, so I wrote more or less the same thing again, and now I see the original one! It's gone buggy!
JPBarrass (
talk)
17:45, 1 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Also, if you have an interlanguage link it generally removes the need to show non-English text for a concept. E.g. right now Suwon Hyanggyo has Hangul/Hanja, but if I replaced it with
Suwon Hyanggyo [
ko, there's no need for the text because people can just go to the kowiki article to see what the text is.
When an article is eventually created for that topic, it'll automatically get converted to a regular link.
You get to see what other language Wikipedia find important, and how much information about a topic is missing on the enwiki.
Through this, I've discovered a ton more topics to write about; probably 50% of my articles are the product of my snooping around the kowiki for interlanguage links.
In references, when possible you should link the article for the website or book being referenced.
Also I'm not sure about this, but I think you should use title casing for translated article titles.
Also, I like to use
Template:Main article when possible. Currently, this can be done for the Hwaseong Fortress section.
Honestly speaking, I think this article has a long way to go before it can hit GA level. I expect this to take at least 20-30 hours of work for one person. I'm willing to help you on it, but you're free to close the nom and renom later if you'd like. Otherwise I'll continue working on this.
toobigtokale (
talk)
02:49, 2 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Thanks again for the feedback. My main reason for nominating it in the first place was to get advice on getting it up to scratch, and this has been very useful so far. I'd be happy to leave the nomination open and continue improving the article if you're OK with helping, but please don't feel obliged. I also expect it to be slow as I'm going away for a week next Tuesday.
Regarding your more specific points above, I'll start working on those. I'm curious about the interlanguage links, though. You've given an example with Suwon Hyanggyo, but because this doesn't exist in English Wikipedia, this is a red link. Since we generally frown upon red links, might this not cause some problems?
Relevant policy:
WP:REDLINKSAdd red links to articles to indicate that a page will be created soon or that an article should be created for the topic because the subject is notable and verifiable.. As long as the thing you're linking is notable and verifiable (in any language), you should use ILLs. This applies generally to red links btw; if something is notable feel free to red link it.
toobigtokale (
talk)
03:49, 2 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Something to put on your radar: for the list of people, we should try to trim the alt names (Hangul/Hanja especially). Guidelines:
Only show the English name they're most likely to be known by, likely their Wikipedia article title.
Only show Hangul/Hanja if they do not have an article on the English OR Korean Wikipedia.
Use interlanguage links where appropriate.
In other words, keep Hangul/Hanja if they don't have an article anywhere. Either way, the list is a bit long; may be good to prune it if you're not certain how/why they're important people.
toobigtokale (
talk)
03:50, 3 February 2024 (UTC)reply
I'm also noticing a few incorrect romanizations and romanization practices. Here's a website where you can automatically convert Hangul names to either
RR or
MR:
http://roman.cs.pusan.ac.kr/input_eng.aspx
Important, give these both a read:
WP:NCKO and
MOS:KO#Romanization. Make sure you understand these really well, it'll be continually relevant if you plan to work on Korea-related articles in the future. Feel free to ask questions, and try applying these, and I'll give you as much time as you need and later I'll point out if anything needs fixing.
toobigtokale (
talk)
08:59, 3 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Thanks. I've corrected Ilwang and Changryong now. I suspect others you may have spotted could be Haewoojae, Kyemyung, Kyeonggi Ilbo, and Kyeongin Ilbo, but these are proper nouns, and these institutions/businesses seem to have chosen these spellings. Several years ago, too, the road signs changed from Woldeukeop-ro to Worldcup-ro, so I used the new Anglicised spelling here. Lastly, I used people's chosen spelling for their names unless I couldn't find those, in which case I used RR except for surnames, when I used the most common forms, e.g., Kim, Park, Lee.
JPBarrass (
talk)
14:50, 3 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Hi. Hyphens are definitely confusing, as there doesn't appear be any standard practice in society. Consider a name such as 가진. The pusan.ac.kr site suggests using a space (Ga Jin) as if 진 were a middle name. Some people do this for their name in practice, while many others don't. Nowadays very few people seem to use hyphens, too, so I'm inclined not to use them.
Obviously we should go with what people have chosen for their own names, but when we can't find their preference, we likely need some standard. Does Wikipedia perhaps have some sort of standard practice for personal name orthography?
JPBarrass (
talk)
01:00, 4 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Thanks. I've added interlanguage links, and removed transliteration as you suggested. I think it can be difficult to determine who's more relevant, as that would risk prioritising my own interests. I agree, though, that it takes a bit of scrolling to get through this list. I'll try turning it into prose, grouping people by activity, e.g., independence activism, music. Thanks again.
JPBarrass (
talk)
14:53, 3 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Another thing to work on: information in the infobox, if not already in the body of the article, should be referenced. I think having too many references in the infobox tends to look messy, so I often try to weave infobox information into the body so I don't have to cite it in the infobox. But for things like area code that don't really have a great place to go in the body you can just cite only in the infobox.
toobigtokale (
talk)
09:41, 4 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Also some more feedback, history section is still in need of more work. I'm having a hard time significant writing about Suwon's history in English.
If you're up for it, I've found this free book in Korean:
[1] (click 원본보기; blue button). It's a reliable source; the Suwon government I think borrows writing from it on occasion (
example, although I think we shouldn't directly cite a paraphrased version). Are you willing to give parsing it a try?
One cheat we could do is you could use the paraphrased version and Google/Papago Translate to get an idea of what to look for in the book, then cite the book itself when you find the original source of the info. If you're not feeling confident I can get around to it later.
toobigtokale (
talk)
10:00, 4 February 2024 (UTC)reply
This book is really good btw, such a great introductory and comprehensive source. For future reference, I know that Seoul similarly publishes local history books like this for free. I think other local governments probably do similar.
toobigtokale (
talk)
10:14, 4 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Thanks very much. Things are starting to get busy with holiday prep, so I expect not to get a whole load done till the middle of next week, but I'll definitely get onto it. I had another question for you, too. I see you've cited some authors using their names in Hangul rather than Romanising them. Is that typical? (I've Romanised them all beforehand, so I may have to go through reHangulusing them.)
JPBarrass (
talk)
14:55, 4 February 2024 (UTC)reply
I don't think it's necessary to re-Hangul the names, it's a fairly minor issue. I started that practice after observing another editor doing it. It makes sense I think; we don't always know how living people want to romanize their names, so why should we need to if we can just use their hangul names without any glitches? It also takes effort to look up how they romanize their names, and you usually can't find it. However, one hiccup is if you need to mention the author inline, e.g. "Scholar x claims that y". In that case, inline I romanize using hyphenated RR with common spelling for surname (and show the hangul name in parentheses), and in the ref I use Hangul.
toobigtokale (
talk)
21:29, 4 February 2024 (UTC)reply
I'm happy you spotted the freedom of panorama issue; I was going to bring it up at some point down the line, as it's a complicated topic. We'll need to go through all the photos and make sure they're ok in order to pass the article.
toobigtokale (
talk)
09:44, 16 February 2024 (UTC)reply