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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: Not moved, having followed this discussion for days and the subject of diacritics in article titles for some months, I have closed this to avoid becoming a
Buridan's ass. On one side of the
dilemma is the hay—those who support English language names without diacritics because that’s what English RS use (albeit inconsistently). On the other side is the pail of water, those editors who support accurate, diacritic encumbered foreign names. One cannot contest either side on policy/guideline grounds alone because the policies and guidelines themselves are contexually contradictory. There was no clear consensus to make these moves as requested by the participants in this discussion, that is a given. However, I can honestly say, neither sides’ policy/guideline arguments can be discounted until we either move the hay or the pail of water closer to the center. Until then, these diacritic based title discussions will put anyone trying to decide them in the position of
Buridan's assMike Cline (
talk)
22:13, 19 April 2012 (UTC)reply
Oppose all - We have the ITF and ATP sources on all these articles. The only diacritic sources given are from foreign papers which are pretty useless with all the English sources we have. Wiki tells us to "Follow the general usage in reliable sources that are written in the English language." We usually have full names in the article body but the title should be kept at the sourced English alphabetic spelling. This submitter is doing a lot of these move requests as of late to try and remove anglicized names from wikipedia article titles and even from use as an alternate spelling in the main article body. It's tough with multiple nominations since each can be very different but we have
Huet at Getty Images,
Sansoni at LA Times,
Grenier LA Times but Grenier had less English source articles found than the others,
Fontang at Tennis World Magazine,
Vitoux at UK Independent. There are lots of these type English sources for this English wikipedia as opposed to the foreign language that most English readers can't fathom.
Fyunck(click) (
talk)
08:52, 1 April 2012 (UTC)reply
Support all. The proposed spellings are correct (
Huet,
Sansoni,
Grenier,
Fontang,
Vitoux) and proper English (per authoritative sources). Sports writers' non-use of accent marks is no excuse for misspelling living persons' names in a reference work. The current titles deviate from established practice and fail
WP:UE ("Stephane Huet" is not an anglicized spelling like Florence; it is a common misspelling like "Soren Kierkegaard"),
WP:BLP (we must write encyclopedically and "get the article right") and
WP:V (sources whose house styles lead to constant spelling errors are not reliable on the relevant spelling issues).
Prolog (
talk)
12:04, 1 April 2012 (UTC)reply
OpposeWP:UE, you should use English sources to back up your claims for English language usage, since this is the English Wikipedia, not the European Wikipedia. If you can show that
WP:UCNin English uses accents, then that's fine, if you can't, then it's not English usage.
70.24.244.198 (
talk)
02:51, 3 April 2012 (UTC)reply
Comment: from WP:COMMONNAME: "Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined by reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources". These are clearly inaccurate spellings.
HandsomeFella (
talk)
13:15, 3 April 2012 (UTC)reply
Correct because diacritics fall into the English orthography not the alphabet. So yes these would be inaccurate as simply stripping the diacritics and not translating properly is an error. -
DJSasso (
talk)
01:11, 4 April 2012 (UTC)reply
Simply adding diacritics is also inaccurate, since they do not exist in English orthography, therefore do not represent the same things they do in the source language.
70.24.244.198 (
talk)
05:30, 4 April 2012 (UTC)reply
Different languages often have different names for the same thing. When the guidelines talk about "accuracy", it should not be interpreted to mean that one language is accurate and others inaccurate. It means that some RS has established that a particular form of a name is inaccurate.
Kauffner (
talk)
06:14, 4 April 2012 (UTC)reply
That isn't what we are saying, there is a way to properly translate names with diacritics and there is an incorrect way to translate them. Simply removing them is the incorrect way to translate them thus per WP:COMMONNAME simply removing them is inaccurate and should not be used even though they may be used that way in reliable sources. -
DJSasso (
talk)
12:12, 4 April 2012 (UTC)reply
Support all. The subjects are notable for actions in countries where their names are spelt using diacritics. We don't typically "translate" modern names. —
AjaxSmack01:21, 6 April 2012 (UTC)reply
Oppose all. We should use that spelling favored by reliable sources, whether or not we think it's "correct". Until reliable sources favor using the diacritic, we should not be adding it.--
Aervanath (
talk)
14:21, 18 April 2012 (UTC)reply
Aervanath, have you looked at the articles? For each of the 5 French living people nominated to being allowed to keep French names, we already "know" the correct name since it's in the first words of the lede, and based on the only reliable sources on spelling in the 5 articles = French language ones. Further, good English RS do use the diacritic for 100s of
Stéphanes and
Frédérics, as per the rest of en.wp BLPs. WP:US [unreliable sources] don't.
In ictu oculi (
talk)
06:51, 19 April 2012 (UTC)reply
Oppose all. Follow usage in English
WP:RS. Totally agree with Aervanath: "Until [English] reliable sources favor using the diacritic, we should not be adding it." --
Born2cycle (
talk)
01:10, 19 April 2012 (UTC)reply
Trouble is many of the good "follow the English sources" tennis editors have thrown up their hands in disgust and moved on these days. Can't blame them but now suddenly every English placed tennis player is under assault... one which had just had two recent move requests fail and now put up again. And it's being drafted that English sourcing and comman name be changed permanently at wikipedia
right here.
Fyunck(click) (
talk)
05:51, 19 April 2012 (UTC)reply
The sources presented to support the diacriticless spellings do not meet
WP:V and WP:RS regarding the spelling of French personal names. The systematic non-use of accent marks is part of the house style in newspapers and sports writing, but it
should not be brought here.
Prolog (
talk)
09:44, 19 April 2012 (UTC)reply
So "sports writing" is not RS with respect to the names of athletes. I hope this is a joke. Oh, and tell me when you've found a publication that doesn't have a "house style".
Kauffner (
talk)
11:41, 19 April 2012 (UTC)reply
The reliability of a source depends on the context (
WP:SOURCES). Our house style, like those of other general-purpose reference works, is to spell non-anglicized foreign names in proper English; correctly with the necessary diacritical marks.
Prolog (
talk)
12:10, 19 April 2012 (UTC)reply
We have real guidelines on this issue, you know:
"The title of an article should generally use the version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language, as you would find it in reliable sources (for example other encyclopedias and reference works, scholarly journals and major news sources)." (
WP:ENGLISH)
"follow the general usage in reliable sources that are written in the English language" (
WP:DIACRITICS).
I take it that you agree that your views are against current policy and practice. People who barely feature in any English-language sources obviously do not have anglicized names. Even
Søren Kierkegaard (an example at WP:UE) and
Paul Erdős (an example at
WP:MOSPN) have not gained English spellings, despite having their name commonly spelled without diacritics for decades.
Prolog (
talk)
14:06, 19 April 2012 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Where next after close above? Please forgive a comment...
Half of me disagrees with the above close (or stall), 8 support v 5 oppose: Because nobody has yet proved that the popular US/UK/Aus sports sources are reliable authorities on the spelling of "foreigners'" names, and because those who commented above in favour of accurate spelling of living people's names did so largely from WP guidelines, which overwhelmingly support the canal for Living Persons' names already being in Panama (at
WP:MOSPN#Diacritics for example). But the other half of me thinks, yes, well something better is needed. I too, like the closer, have followed this only for a couple of months. But what I have seen suggests that
WP:BLPs need a clearer guideline - it isn't just the constant disruption on tennis stublets, or previously ice hockey, we'll also get random RMs like the
Alfredo Simón one as long as the tension between MOS/encyclopedic sources and popular sports publications/websites exists. Therefore I propose inviting everyone who has taken part in a BLP name RM in the last 30 days to
WT:BLP. That's going to be 100+ editors...
In ictu oculi (
talk)
23:38, 19 April 2012 (UTC)reply
To further follow up on that. The discussion took place here
Wikipedia_talk:Biographies_of_living_persons/Archive_34#Sum_up. Of around 100 who took part in diacritic related RMs in the 30 days preceding 90 vs 10 were for use of Latin-alphabet diacritics in BLPs. Of those invited 17 for and 8 against showed up, with some additional comment from the more regular inhabitants of
WT:BLP. That's where it stands, at this point anyone else coming across this can, I understand, hopefully correctly, ask Mike Cline to reopen/relist the RM above. I don't think I should be the one as the original proposer. Either way, the number of Latin-alphabet name BLPs on en.wp which do not follow the native spelling/nationality of the subject is infinitesimally small... Hopefully that fact will mean that disruption from the remaining corners where tabloid-MOS is prefered will be minimal.
In ictu oculi (
talk)
03:05, 16 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Well, a year later I have just relisted one of the above Frederic Vitoux (tennis) → Frédéric Vitoux (tennis). But mainly to remove the "Frédéric Vitoux professionally known as Frederic Vitoux" statement from the lead, in the absence of any mechanism to hold a RM on a lead sentence. Such a statement is more of a problem in relation to
WP:BLP /
WP:OR than a low-MOS title.
In ictu oculi (
talk)
08:00, 17 April 2013 (UTC)reply
Requested move 2
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.