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How should we translate Ministerpräsident? Minister-President, as in the tables at each state article? Prime Minister, as in the list in the Thuringia article? Premier, as in List of Premiers of Bavaria? Google indicates that all three are commonly used...
Sorry, but Prime Minister or Premier for a German Minister-President is a wrong translation! A Prime Minister is the highest minister in a cabinet, headed by a monarch, who himself is the head of his government. A Minister-president is not to be compared with a President of the Republic. A German Minister-President is the head of government with some functions and privileges of a head of state (internal and external representation, right of pardon and the privilege to confer decorations). So, because of the incomparability / intranslationability of the term a new word must be formed (neologism) in English.
Maybe there should be an article about the historic states of Germany? 203.166.57.12 07:03, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)
The article claims that there's a risk of confusing "Bundesländer" with U.S.-like states and suggests that one think of them as provinces. This is wrong. Germany is (due to its Constitution) a "Bundesstaat", that in fact is more like a confederation (= weaker central power) than it is a federal State. All power resides with a Länder except those especially granted to the federal government in the constitution. For example:
- Germany has 17 representations (embassies) to the EU in Bruxelles: one for the federal republic and 16 for the German Bundesländer.
- Each Bundesland can maintain foreign relations of it's own (... as long as it will not undermine the "official" foreign policy)
- Each Bundesland has it's own constitution laying out the principles of state its organisation, civil rights. These constitutions cannot limit the rights granted to the people by the federal constitution, but it can extend them. Provinces don't have this. They are normally founded by a top-to-bottom action.
In essence: Please refer to "Bundesländer" as "states", because it expresses their role a lot better than any other English term.
I have removed this section about translating "Bundersländer" as "state" or "province". As Saintswithin noted, it is practically universally translated as 'state'. Also, I don't think it's worth mentioning the fact that using the term 'state' to refer to a semi-sovereign region of a federation can cause confusion, because this potential confusion about the word 'state' is not at all unique or noteworthy about German states. And besides, I doubt any native speaker of English is confused by the word 'state' referring to both some subnational entities and also to independent, sovereign governments/nations. Also, the sentence about different transliterations of the word 'Länder' as 'Lander' or 'Laender' is confusing and poorly written - I guess by a non-native English speaker. If someone feels that this point is worth making, please rewrite it. Maybe something like: "The word 'Länder' is sometimes written in English as 'Lander' or 'Laender'."
Even though I think that we should refer to 'Bundersländer' as 'states' for consistency, I do disagree with the user who said that the reason we should call them 'states' and not 'provinces' is because Germany is a federation where the 'Bundersländer' have a good degree of autonomy and the powers of the federal vs state governments are delimited and limited by the constitution, and thus the 'Bundersländer' are not merely provinces. However, in reality, the degree of autonomy of the regions of a country, their powers, and whether or not the country is a true federation is not really related to whether the regions are called 'provinces' or 'states'. For example, Canada is a true federation and its provinces have a good deal of autonomy and the powers of the federl government are limited. From the wikipedia article on Canada: "The provinces have a large degree of autonomy from the federal government" and "the provinces ... together collect more revenue than the federal government, an almost unique structure among federations in the world." -- thirty-seven 09:27, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)
In en.wikipedia the page name state is about soverign states which a Land is not. To use the article State (subnational) is not of much use because it refers back to this article. The the page named Province is a much better match:
One should not be put off by this because the words "state", "nation" and "country" tend to be mixed up in English depending on context. For example the UK is a soverign state but it is not a nation because it consists of 3 and 1/4 nations. England a country and the English are a nation (and it was a goal). Keep the name state in the article if you feel more at home with that (why you should be I am not sure, I think Land is better) but link to the word to Province because that article has an explanation of what a Land which the article State does not. Philip Baird Shearer 18:52, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
German-speaking newspapers and TV usually refer to US states as US-Bundesländer (e.g. "in US-Bundesland Louisiana"). I think this is a good argument for the use of the term "state", province implies a lesser degree of independence. the US states are technically not states, as they are non-sovereign, but we are stuck with state in common usage for both a sovereign entity and a sub-entity.
The BBC uses "province" as a translation for Bundesland, which sounds wrong every time I hear it.
Why is Bundesland translated as "states of the federation" and not "federal states"? TiffaF 07:54, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
if German newspapers regularly refer to the component states of the United States as "US-bundesländer" then it seems entirely apropriate to me to mirror this usage and call the German länder states, or when greater precision is required, "federal states." The term Province (Canada being an exception, perhaps to deliberately differentiate itself from its southern neigbour) to my ear indicates a shared cultural background of some degree, habits held in common, or perhaps where a common dialect is spoken, rather than necessarily a political grouping. The primary models for this line of reasoning are the French provinces: for example, Burgundy, Brittany, and of course, Provence. Yes, they may have once have had an independent political existence, and even be in part re-constituted as the new Regions, with administrative responsibilities, but these new constructions do not always conform to the old description or idea of the provinces in question. Provinces are more of an idea than a reality. In Germany one might argue that a province of Franconia or Swabia might or perhaps should exist, though they have no current political existence except as sub-units. What are the dialects spoken in those areas called, for example? In my (admittedly limited) experience, someone from the southwestern part of Germany may say that he lives in or is from Baden-Württemberg, but classify his identity as a Swabian. Such referral is easier in other parts of the country, a Bavarian is a Bavarian, a Hessian a Hessian, but what is someone fron the Rheinland-Pfalz? (dshep/29.06.2007)
"German newspapers regularly refer to the component states of the United States as "US-bundesländer"" That's not true, they are called "Staaten" or "(US-)Bundesstaaten" but NEVER called Länder!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.212.87 ( talk) 17:50, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
In the german language the word "Provinz" exists as well. Preussen for example was devided in "Provinzen". No-one would call the länder "Provinz". German law theory defined the länder as "Staaten" what literaly means states. It's because they are partially sovereign. For exaple, they can sign international treaties. German "Provinzen" were not able to do that. 92.228.33.131 ( talk) 20:42, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
This is a difficult one, as the German states have nothing like the legal, fiscal or social autonomy that the US states do; the immediate German cognate for "state" (Staat) was not used to describe the German states, leaving the field open for debate in translation. I've mostly seen UK newspapers referring to them as Bundesländer or Länder (spelled ae or ä) - italicised, as it's an imported word (much the same applies to the French Départements - no translation). That would be the official story - calling them (federal) states in everyday speech is perfectly ok, most of us Brits do that, as it's the nearest equivalent and using the German term sounds pedantic. I've seen "province" used once in the Guardian (and winced), but I've never heard it used instead of "state" in everyday speech. It's the same principle as applies to forms of school and professional qualifications - Hauptschule, Gymnasium, Dipl.Ing etc. have no direct equivalent in the English-speaking world, so the German term is used in official translations (e.g. on CVs), but you're ok saying "high school", "grammar school" or "graduate engineer" or whatever the equivalent is in English where exact terminology is irrelevant. Otoh, autobahn(-s) is often used in everyday speech when referring to the German version - probably due to their much-envied lack of speed limits, making them unique and worthy of a proper name... now that's getting priorities straight! DDWP ( talk) 05:12, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
The bit that still needs revision is the section referring to "Land" (original quotation marks from the article) being referred to in the official translation of the Basic Law in the third sentence of the article. It's not. That would mean that in their translation they used the english word 'land' spelled with a capital L. Which they didn't. They italicised Land or Länder, i.e. Land or Länder, denoting it as the German word used in English. Exactly like départment in French, as someone already noted. It's wrong to say that the English word "Land" is used in the official translation, as is currently implied. It is Land or Länder. World of difference. Willkane22 ( talk) 15:14, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
The way this article uses the word "federal state" is completely out of line with what you get to if you look up federal state. I have tried adding a section to explain the confusion to the reader, rather than just using a word in this article to mean almost the opposite of what it means the rest of the time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jackie2541 ( talk • contribs) 15:33, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
Regrettably, this long discussion is completely out of line of the official recommendations issued by the Federal Ministry of Foreign Affairs. They recommend to not attempt translating "Land" (or "Laender") into "state(s)" or whatever, similarly as in German-speaking newspapers and official documents expressions like "departments" (of France) or "counties" (UK) are usually not translated and appear as "Departments" or "Counties". As regards the US, German documents speak usually of "Staat(en)". And for that very reason the Foreign Ministry recommends to not translate Land to State. Cf. the official Laender list in different languages at https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/de/service/terminologie/bundeslaenderdownloads/-/215248 195.200.70.39 ( talk) 17:46, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
Just a short notice: 203.166.57.12 was me. Regards -- Guido Bockamp 07:51, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I've recapitalised Länder, following the EU's use, Muret-Sanders 2004 Großwörterbuch and the German embassy and German govenment websites. Saintswithin 10:10, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The article states:
The city-states of Berlin and Hamburg are not subdivided.
Out of curiosity, why aren't the boroughs (Bezirke) of Berlin considered subdivisions? Perhaps they aren't precisely analogous to subdivisions in other states, but they do have elected governments and are well known facets of life in Berlin.
-- Jfruh 18:05, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Is there any real distinction between the Senates of the city-states and the cabinets of other states, other than the name? Similarly, are the Mayors of Berlin and Hamburg and the Senate President of Bremen different from the Minister-Presidents of the other states in any way other than in name? -- Jfruh 22:35, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
If anyone is still interested: Actually Hamburg and Berlin do have cabinets, which are only called senates for historical reasons. The difference is that in the cabinet the Minister-President appoints the ministers, while in the Senate the Senators elect the President. Caballito ( talk) 23:43, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Now that the European Union has evolved to its current status, what areas of importance does the Federal Government of the Federal Republic of Germany have? I can see Military as being one area, but besides Military and Economics-related matters, what other areas are there? The reason I ask this is to find reason besides nationalist sentiment which entice the bundesländer to maintain inclusion within the Federal Republic of Germany? Is it possible that the European Union might one-day replace the existing institutions of the Federal Republic of Germany as a whole? Please note: I understand that this is party a question of political opinion, so I am already expecting mixed response(s). mdjkarazim 2005-07-03 02:41:54 (UTC)
The article states right in the beginning "Germany is a federal republic made up of 16 states formally known in German as Bundesländer ("Federal States"; singular Bundesland), or more commonly, Länder (singular Land)."
As far as my information goes, that is actually totally incorrect. The term "Bundesländer" is used in common parlance, however legally speaking it does not even exist and is misleading and wrong actually. The sentence should be the other way around. I took a look into the Grundgesetz, Chapter II is titled "Der Bund und die Länder", in the english version it says "The Federation and the Länder". Chapter IV Der Bundesrat reads: "Durch den Bundesrat wirken die Länder bei der Gesetzgebung und Verwaltung des Bundes und in Angelegenheiten der Europäischen Union." translated as "The Länder shall participate through the Bunderat in the legislation ...etc." Nowhere in the Grundgesetz does it ever talk of "Bundesländer". The state-governments are also just called that, Landesregierung and not Bundeslandregierung. Of course the term Bundesländer is popularly used, however legally speaking it does not even exist and is factually wrong. Germany by its constitution is made up of the german states first, who got together to create a federation, the Bundesrepublik. Therefore anything that has to do with "Bund-" is only at the federal level, by its nature it cannot be at the state "Land" level. Therefore a word like Bundesland in itself is actually a contradiction.
I would suggest this erroneous terminology is corrected in the article or some indication written about it being misleading. I would like to hear what others think about this? I could be totally wrong, but this is how I have learned it and what legal experts have also told me... Gryffindor 22:06, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Hmm, I don't think the term is "wrong". In any case, it should be mentioned that it is used, even if not by the Grundgesetz. Just as a sidenote, the Constitution of Austria actually uses the term Bundesländer. Martg76 21:41, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I'd not thought about this before, but it does sound as if your basic point is correct, that the formal term is in fact "Land". Your argument is partially supported also by the fact that a number of the states are formally named "Land X" (whereas none as far as I know are ever "Bundesland X"). The argument that "Bundesland" is a contradiction is irrelevant, however, since the term is most certainly used in the manner described. Anyway, how about:
Germany is a federal republic made up of 16 states, known in German as Länder (singular Land). Since Land is also the German word for "country", the term Bundesländer ("Federal States"; singular Bundesland) is often used to avoid ambiguity.
I've omitted any wikilinks to keep it easy to read in this discussion. Cheers, Silverhelm 00:55, 15 September 2005 (UTC).
"However the term "Bundesland" is actually a misleading, since it would imply a subordination of the German Länder to the federal Bund. It does not reflect the autonomy of the Länder per international law. The correct term, which is also used by the Grundgesetz, is therefore Länder.
This differentiation is not unimportant, because after the end of the Second World War, the Länder in the western part of the former Deutsches Reich were constituted as administrative areas first, and built on them the Federation (Bund) was constructed. This in complete contrast to the post-war development in Austria, where the Bund was erected first, and then the states as units of the federal system followed."
Alright, this is my attempt of a translation, it could definetly use a polish and proofread. cheers. Gryffindor 14:45, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
I have just checked multiple versions of the Austrian Constitution, and have not found any references to any "Bundesländer", just like the German Grundgesetz it talks about "Länder".
Gryffindor
20:14, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
How can anyone interested in the former GDR find out from this article which of the 16 Bundesländer (or Länder) belonged to it and which of them didn't?
I didn't find any hint—could, or should, it be added? <K F> 17:48, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Is Bundesländer used only for German states? What about Bundesstaate? -- 00:09, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
The previous version of this section of the article contained a reference to Willy Brandt being forced out of office in 1974 owing to the opposition controlling the Bundesrat, thus blocking Brandt's ability to pass legislation. I don't know whether the opposition controlled the Bundesrat in 1974, however, it is a generally acknowledged fact that the reason for Brandt's departure (and replacement by Helmut Schmidt) was the exposure of Günter Guillaume as an East German spy working as a close aide to Brandt and not whether the opposition could block Brandt's legislative proposals. Cvieg 15:45, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Who is Head of State of the German States? Who formally appoints and dismisses the Minister-President and the government/cabinet? -- thirty-seven 01:03, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I've tried opening the page on States of Germany on Firefox 2.0, Opera 9.01, and Konqueror 3.5.2 on Linux, and all display the links of the states on the German map with a significant offset towards the upper left. Is it just me who has this problem? 193.136.122.18 13:45, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
I have added a tag, because I do not understand the sentence in the lead on the city states and I am not 100% confident I can state what the truth about it is.
Is Bremen not a city state? Now, it sounds exactly like this. However, it is left open what it is in stead. I guess it is also a city state. Then I wonder what message the last part tries to convey. Has Bremen two districts in incontrast to the other two city states? Or, do they also have districts but unlike for the Bremen case their number is just omitted?
I hope some savvy user can clarify me. Tomeasy T C 17:20, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
all three are city-states, but Bremen is two cities while Berlin and Hamburg each are just one city —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.233.6 ( talk) 19:11, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Bremen has two cities, Bremen and Bremerhaven, an both together are "Freie Hansestadt Bremen". Bremen is also the state capital of "F H B". Bremerhaven is about 60km more north, and divided by lower saxony (Niedersachsen). And Bremen is mostly used as shortcut of "Freie Hansestadt Bremen" "caballito" is right with his statements. Gruß aus Deutschland —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.102.123.211 ( talk) 22:20, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Currently we have this statement:
"The description free state (Freistaat) is merely used for historical reasons, when free state was added to the titles of states that were not monarchies."
It does not make much sense in respect for what we are trying to explain. Bavaria and Saxony, two of the modern three Freistaaten (free state), were Monarchies! However, the statement above insinuates rather the opposite. Tomeasy T C 11:24, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
Mecklenburg isn't translated ADAIK but Vorpommern is either Western Pomerania, Hither Pomerania (?) or Pomerania minor. We should put either (or an asterisk with a note) on the map. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.97.245.5 ( talk) 06:32, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Hi, haven't read the article in depth as the table held all the information I needed - but does anyone know what the background colours of the rows represent? It's certainly not clear, could this be made more obvious? curlybap 19:05, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
Has the German state of Bremen a capital? -- 88.77.252.147 ( talk) 13:05, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
The best and most accurate term is federal-states used both by the German Federal and Austrian Federal Govts. when dealing with the Laender in the English Language! Calling them states is okay but technically federal-states suits the bill better making them a uniquely German/Austrian not like the case in the USA or Australia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.82.24.196 ( talk) 00:15, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
Ok, then lets add a "-"! Federal-state is the best and most accurate political science term you are going to find and serves best to the original German "Bundesland". In general English a "state" can mean many things too depending on context so I don't understand your point there. Calling them states is fine but generic and not the best wording. Cheers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.84.82.187 ( talk) 08:35, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
IMHO the correct title of the article should be Länder of Germany. -- 194.95.119.139 ( talk) 13:41, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
The only correct title for this page would be "Laender of Germany" (or "Länder of Germany"), according to the recommendation of the German Federal MInistry of Foreign Affairs to not translate the word "Land" / "Laender" into other languages. Cf. https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/de/service/terminologie/bundeslaenderdownloads > Englisch 195.200.70.39 ( talk) 17:51, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
I've removed the following text from this artile and the affected state articles, which was added by an IP:
I wonder what's that supposed to mean? And to make that clear: All of present day Germany, except the northern part of Schleswig-Holstein, has been part of any incarnation of "the" German state (Holy Roman Empire, German Confederation, German Empire (both 1849 amd 1871), Weimar, Nazi Germany, and Federal Republic since 1990), except when under French occzpation. Neither the North German Confederation nor the Federal Republic until 1990 was "the" German state, and both always considered all of present day Germany to also be "Germany". -- Caballito ( talk) 15:38, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
Even after reading the article, either I'm just really dense or it really isn't explained very well... but which came first: the States or the German Federal gov't?
I mean, the bit about how all the different German Kingdoms, Duchies, etc, all united to pool their power into the German Empire is clear. And how each of those regions, after WW1 and the German Revolution, again pooled their power into their new Republic which then brought Hitler into power, who then absorbed the legal power that those smaller gov'ts gave him.
But what I don't seem to understand is... after WW2, the (Western) Allies decided to create the German States as listed in this article. Does this mean that, technically, during Occupation and before the 1949 establishment of the FRG, there was a period when a "German nation" ceased to exist, and thus the only legal governments run by German people themselves were the State governments? And was it that those new States who then selected representatives to work on the Basic Law, or were the States empowered in the first place by the Basic Law and that the way the Allies designed each State was merely a "suggestion"?
Furthermore, what are the current politics of each State like? Is there a "State vs Feds" angle like in the US, or is the German Federal gov't far more centralized (relatively speaking) than the US Federal gov't (specifically, is there a "Tenth Amendment"-ish statement in the Basic Law)? Do States compete with one another and/or have a strong sense of independence separate from the Federal gov't, or are the states closer to simple administrative units versus "independent countries"? Do any States have a history of threatening to secede from Germany (even if it's commonly known to be from a fringe group bellyaching)?
The article does explain a lot about how each States general function, but—basically—I don't think it explains much about the relationship of each State with the German Federal gov't. Again, maybe I'm just not reading between the lines properly or so, but maybe these things could be added or clarified to the article? What do you think? -- 76.14.41.180 ( talk) 19:14, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
I think the Grundgesetz article may answer some of your questions about the formation of the Federal Republic.
As regards the division of powers between the federal government and the state governments, I was surprised to see that this does not seem to be well covered either here or in the Grundgesetz article. The latter article does include information on the content of the constitution, so it perhaps belongs there, though it should also be discussed here. Perhaps it is discussed in more detail elsewhere, but I couldn't find it offhand. As an aside, the word "government" may be used slightly differently in the US (and other presidential systems) and in Germany (and other parliamentary systems). I will use it here in a more American sense.
The nearest equivalent to the Tenth Amendment is probably Article 70, Clause 1 of the Basic Law:
Article 70 [Division of legislative powers between the Federation and the Länder] (1) The Länder shall have the right to legislate insofar as this Basic Law does not confer legislative power on the Federation.
Broadly speaking, there are some (listed) fields where the federal government has exclusive legislative power, some (listed) fields where there is "competing" competence (the states can legislate if the federal government does not) and the remaning fields where the Länder have competence. This is complicated by a number of things, e.g.
As a general rule, I would say that power is more centralized in Germany than in the USA. There is also the issue of the states' representation at the federal level (the Bundesrat). This may also be affected the issue of the difference between a parliamentary system and the presidential system, with a different system of checks and balances, but there can be similar (though probably less severe) problems when party majorities are different at the state and federal levels.
As regards threats to secede, I don't think there have been any serious threats of this nature, though the Bavarians, in particular, can be pretty "independent" (I should probably leave it at that). Jocularly, Bavaria is sometimes referred to as if it were not part of (the rest of) Germany. Recently there has been some wrangling about the duty of the "rich" states (which at the moment includes states like Bavaria) to financially support the "poor" states. Somewhat reminiscent of a similar debate within the EU. Plus ça change . . .
Re-unification has also not been fully implemented in people's heads and I believe there are still some formal differences.
You wrote "Does this mean that, technically, during Occupation and before the 1949 establishment of the FRG, there was a period when a "German nation" ceased to exist, and thus the only legal governments run by German people themselves were the State governments?" The Federal Republic did not get (most of) its sovereignty back until 1955; so before that the concept of "legal governments run by German people themselves" is somewhat problematic; the issue of a "German nation" is a different one.
The article Legal status of Germany may also touch on some of the issues you raised, but you need to be careful when researching this because it is a favourite topic of people with fringe viewpoints.-- Boson ( talk) 23:23, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
There is even an article Federalism in Germany, but what's asked for still isn't there, though I guess that would be the appropriate place.
As to what was first, that is actually covered in the article, the states were established in the occupationn zones, and while some states hadn't their own constitution, some of the constitutions predate the Basic Law, which had to be ratified by two thirds of the states, and in fact was by all but one.
Now as to the Tenth Amendment analogue, that would not be found in Article 70, but in
Article 30 [Sovereign powers of the Länder] Except as otherwise provided or permitted by this Basic Law, the exercise of state powers and the discharge of state functions is a matter for the Länder.
And while said Article 70 indeed gives a lot of legislative power to the federal governmen, it's really just that, it does not grant any executive or judicative power. So, by those means the federal parliament is empowered to make laws - and the federal administration is empowered to just about nothing, as those laws, according to Article 30, are still administered by the state governments, as explicitely stated again in
Article 83 [Execution by the Länder] The Länder shall execute federal laws in their own right insofar as this Basic Law does not otherwise provide or permit.
and
Article 84 [Länder administration – Federal oversight] (1) Where the Länder execute federal laws in their own right, they shall provide for the establishment of the requisite authorities and regulate their administrative procedures. If federal laws provide otherwise, the Länder may enact deviating regulations. [...]
And it's not that much otherwise provided or permitted by the Basic Law, so it's not just "a number of fields" where the federal laws are execute by the state administration - it's the general rule, to which there are some exceptions. In fact, aside from supervisory agencies, very few federal authorities exist at all, and exceopt from military or unemployment services, most peple will hardly ever have to deal with federal agencies.
The same goes with judicative powers, where basically besides the federal supreme courts there are no federal corts at all (though the court adminstration is regulated by a federal law).
-- Caballito ( talk) 02:39, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
Why is the main map at the top of the article positioned on the left? It looks really crammed together with the table of contents and the article header. Usually, such a map would be on the top right of an article, like an infobox. -- Imladros ( talk) 16:15, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
This article doesn't really need an infobox, although I am not completely opposed to an addition. But the recently added infobox has several flaws, that should be discussed/fixed first:
Point 2 and 3 could probably be solved with a better parameter usage, point 1 needs someone to look into the templates (alternatively the map alone could be added to the right to add a graphical lead component). I have removed the infobox for now pending further discussion and improvements. GermanJoe ( talk) 18:33, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
The sentence "Germany consists of 16 Länder" is wrong! It has to be: 16 German Länder are federated as Federal Republic of Germany. The wrong term means a top down view, the later a bottom up view. The lender are no provinces of the Federal Republic but consists it. The German federated states could exist without the federal republic, but the federation could not exist without the German states! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.37.104.194 ( talk) 08:31, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
Grant | Talk 03:07, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
The sourcing problem is obvious for an article of this length. For example, the entire "history" section has only one inline citation. It's really well written and I'm sure all the reference to law and historical events had to come from somewhere. Just hope that it's not copy-pasted from an academic paper somewhere and we had to delete it...
Also, major reorganization needed! I tried to move paragraphs 3 and 4 to the relevant sections, but too much info overlaps so I couldn't fit it in the chronological order. I suggest moving all legal references out of "history" section and streamline it into subsections: pre-WWII, West Germany, post-reuni.
I can really use a subject-level expert editor here. Any thoughts? -- Nemoschool ( talk) 09:35, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
This talk page is getting long with old discussions - can we archive it somehow? QueensanditsCrazy ( talk) 17:00, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
"De facto" gets a lot of sloppy usage. Strictly speaking, it mean the opposite of "de jure" but people tend to use it more vaguely. I removed a bunch of these from States of Germany, but an anonymous editor put two of them back. These refer to the Nazi abolition of the lander and the Federal Republic's according West Berlin the status of a state. The editor insists that neither are dejure. That is incorrect.
The lander were abolished under the Act Establishing the Identity of the Länder with the Reich. This law was passed without being approved by the Reichstag, but it was still a valid law, enact using Hitler's emergency powers.
The status of West Berlin before reunification was more complicated. Source. The Federal Republic considered it their territory, something the Four Powers never recognized. The Soviets flatly denied the legality of this status, while the other 3 Powers sort of winked at it. West Berlin was a sort of quasi-state under Federal law, but "quasi" is not the same thing as "de facto". Isaac Rabinovitch ( talk) 21:57, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
Hello, in the first paragraph, I read: " Berlin, Hamburg and Bremen (with its seaport exclave, Bremerhaven) are called Stadtstaaten (" city-states"), while the other thirteen states are called Flächenländer ("area states") and include Bavaria, Saxony, and Thuringia which describe themselves as Freistaaten ("free states")." Isn't this a rather insignificant information so early in the lead? Ziko ( talk) 10:35, 12 November 2023 (UTC)