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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 09:41, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
I've added a paragraph at the front of the cost of care section because the argument as I hear it is mainly about the high cost, low returns, and low population coverage in the U.S. compared to other similar industrialized countries. The rest of the section is a dull discusssion which more or less examines the reasons for this. But not much of it seems to address the topic of the article (i.e. socialized medicine).
I made 2 changes to the section on Finland. First, neither Finns nor the cited references refer to Finland as having socialized medicine. Second and more importantly, the wording of the 2nd paragraph sounded like 60.8% of Finnish taxes went for health care (when it is actually 6.8% and falling) and then offered a PoV conclusion that Finland was more socialized than other nations.
I went back to the actual wording from the source documents that "the percentage of total health expenditure financed by taxation" is 60.8% (and falling) and removed the PoV conclusion.
Best regards, -- UnicornTapestry ( talk) 03:29, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Well no, it would not refer to the term "socialized medicine" because, as the article explains, the term "socialized medicine" is one that is not used in official circles but is generally restricted to those using the term for political purposes in the United States. You have also misunderstood the difference in terminology. The 6.8% figure is the percentage of GDP devoted to health care. It covers all expenditure (private and public) expressed as a percentage of GDP. This figure tells you nothing about the level of government spending and therefore the degree to which health care is paid directly by government. The 60.8% figure is the total of public expenditure from taxation that goes to health care. This definitely puts Finland in the same cluster group as the UK, Spain and Italy, three European countries that share the same model of health care as the strict definition of socialized medicine; i.e. where government is largely responsible for the funding and the delivery of health care services. In Finland it it is the local communities that obtain income from taxation that run all the local community hospitals and community health centers and national government that runs the major teaching hosptials. There are no private hospitals though some private clinics run as part of the occupational health care system financed by employers can do minor surgeries. The volume of these is however, insignificant.
Also you were wrong to say "...that depend more upon taxation as a source of revenue than insurance or out of pocket expenses" because the graph in the source refers not to "insurance or out of pocket expenses" but "percentage of total health expenditure from social health insurance". Social insurance is compulsory insurance (usually related to income) that goes to non-profit sickness funds established by or regulated by government) to direct legally sequestered funding from employers and employees (and in France by those living on private wealth) into health care. The money from these funds does not pass thru government hands and therefore the cluster A represents the least socialized from the point of view of government actually receiving health care funds and delivering care. That is the meaning of the clusters A B and C.
So for this reason I will undo the last of your two edits. If you are still unclear why, please discuss this here.-- Hauskalainen ( talk) 10:34, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
P.S. That the percentage of GDP fell (over the years in the table) was due to the recovery from the terrible slump in GDP during the early 1990s that Finland suffered because of the collapse in trade with its neighbor and trading partner Russia following the collapse of the Soviet Union. As GDP rose faster than the rise in health care spending, the percent of GDP spent on health care naturally fell. --
Hauskalainen (
talk)
10:34, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
(section originally titled "Deletion of silly citation requests ") to reflect the more important issue on the "name calling" of coverage restrictions which emerged
Someone had added a request for citation about sevices which are available on the NHS which are not available from private insurers. I have given a reference from the ABI regarding private insurers positions in the UK about not covering treatments like cosmetic surgery, organ transplants, dialysis, pregnancy etc. If you seriously believe that these services are not available from the NHS then I am not sure what all those organ transplant specialists, midwives and delivery suites are doing in NHS hospitals. If you like, you can go to the nhs web site at www.nhs.uk and follow the Health A-Z link. I seriously do not think that it necessary to show that most of these services which private insurers exclude are provided by the NHS. The ABI statement makes it clear that the NHS provides these services. And as the article already shows, health care in the UK is free at the point of use (except in a few circumstances like some dental treatments for some people, and small drug co-pays for some people).-- Hauskalainen ( talk) 15:20, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
You cannot 'ration' a commodity unless you control a monopoly on it. Simple as that. A UK health care insurer cannot "ration" healthcare because they are not anywhere near a monopoly position. People are free and able to obtain their heathcare elsewhere. Insurers simply do not provide certain care because there's no profit to be made in it. That is not rationing.
I'm not going to respond to the rest of what you say, as this is not a discussion forum. The fact you are still thrashing around looking for cites is indication enough that what you have added is your own synthesis that you have been unable to source anywhere. -- Escape Orbit (Talk) 22:08, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Get a room already you two. Since the precedent has already been set that this is a health care debate forum, I will add my two cents.
If health care rationing occurs at all, it occurs not only by single-payer or publicly funded health care systems but also by private health insurance companies. Information about anything is added on this encyclopedia because people have done research on something that they already have a feeling that it is happening or has happened. You know, I know, my dog knows that rationing--or whatever liberal v. conservative term you want to use--happens. It happens in the United Kingdom and it certainly happens in the United States. There was a comment above that stated something to the effect of "it's not rationing when private insurance companies do it, they're just trying to make a profit." Newsflash, that's called rationing....it occurs because the cost of an operation or a doctor's visit is so high that it is a liability to the company and so it must be prevented. In America, where I live, I've known countless people who were either or both outright denied health care coverage or were denied certain procedures. Some have died. I would hate to attack the ego of a conservative by calling it rationing, but it is nothing else. It's capitalist health care.
Because health care rationing is a reality in both public and private health care systems, whether one or two of you believe so or not, it would behoove one or both of you to do the necessary research and fact-finding to uncover documentation, whether it be studies or news articles. The gentlelady or gentlemen who brought the topic up might, in my opinion, have been far more successful in this debate had he or she come prepared with citations.
On a side note, I will give it 72 hours before someone tells me here on this page that rationing in private health care systems doesn't exist. GnarlyLikeWhoa ( talk) 04:22, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
For those interested in furthering the article, I read a news article not long ago (which I can no longer locate) that discussed Haiti's medical system. Apparently Haiti had a devilishly awful HIV infection rate, a factor greater than Western nations who predicted disaster for the island nation. If I recall the article correctly, government medical programs took the matter in hand, provided the HIV cocktails at cost, and now has a mortality rate a fraction (1/15 I think was the number) that of the US. My specifics may be faulty, but not the substance of the article.
Good luck, -- UnicornTapestry ( talk) 11:56, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
It seems appropriate that the spelling should be standardized in this article, rather than switching from American to British back to American spellings (e.g. socialised, socialized).
The majority of "ises" in British English can be spelled "izes". If fact the OED preferes the latter. Using the "s" variant in British English is a phenomenon of the last half century and its ubiquitous use has led many to wrongly identify "izes" as American English. To answer your point there should be consistency in any article. Dainamo ( talk) 18:39, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
I don't feel competent to add the necessary tags to refer to the poll that was conducted, but a PDF of the poll report is available at www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/files/Topline__Socialized_Med_Havard_Harris.pdf
It's not well formatted and contains only brief summary stats but hopefully it will address the "citation needed" requirements.
There's a link to the PDF on the page containing the press release (which is already a reference attached to the article). This may have been added at a later date. HTH, AncientBrit ( talk) 16:04, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
It seems no one has hit the nail on the head when it comes to explain what is exactly unbalanced with the "Controversies" section. Plainly: only the arguments against socialized health care are exposed (the possible draw backs) and none of the possible advocated gains which are also part of the "controversy". This is what makes this section unbalanced. There is no more room for the reader to question himself/herself on the subject matter. The article presents more arguments and negative consequences againsts socialized health care than any possible gain (e.i.: if quality goes down, costs go up, innovation lags and access is restricted... what possible controversy could be left???). Obviously a self-serving article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Prisme ( talk • contribs) 14:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
too many opinion pieces are cited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.70.30.45 ( talk) 05:42, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
I have added the {{ Debate}} tag to this section. As I read it, it sounded like a point-counterpoint debate to push the POV of one side of the controversy. Both sides are represented fairly in the quantitative sense, but there is a very obvious bias in the resolution of the discussion. Comments are invited. Sabin4232 ( talk) 03:39, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
It seems that someone decided to delete properly-linked relevant information that I have added. The text was:
Did I write something wrong here? I will hold off reverting (or re-adding) until I get some consensus (or lack of an answer at all). Thanks! Sabin4232 ( talk) 08:24, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
As the ediitor who reverted, let me help you here. In addition to the text you mention above, you also wrote "The debate has been undermined by the Progressive subparty, currently embedded within both of the major parties to carry out its agenda, which includes a fully-socialized system such as the United Kingdom's NHS."
The fact that you have added wikilinks is irrelevant. Your text expresses opinion, is one sided, and totally lacking any references.-- Hauskalainen ( talk) 02:00, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
I agree with the assessment that the article is unbalanced, even though and I happen to side with the political POV favored by the imbalance. First, opinion pieces and most contemporary mainstream articles are usually not reliable sources on a subject like this. Regardless of their authors' credentials, these materials tend to be subjective, presenting arguments that advocate one perspective without giving similar consideration to opposing views. Even if they do provide objective data, the data is often used selectively to fit the position. Better to go directly to the sources of the data. Second, the History section's focus on Giuliani is somewhat irrelevant in terms of the subject (socialized medicine versus the political controversy currently surrounding it), it's too long relative to everything else that's presented, and in terms of informing the reader on socialized medicine, it's not very significant.
My "two cents": Concentrate on material relating to the development and current state of socialized medicine around the world and spend as little time as possible on the political controversy in the US since that is of secondary interest, and besides, the picture is going to change rapidly. Above all, editors who gravitated here primarily because to advocate one position or another should refrain from working on the article. Allreet ( talk) 19:01, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
This section look closes to my comment .This article seems to be very self serving for the Democratic Party (US). It doesn't take in account the fact that most of the countries used as pro argument doesn't mention that the reason there cost is so low is because the American system eats all the research and development cost.taken from xcomony article* "Roche is headquartered in Basel, so you might think that all of its drugs are created in Switzerland. Actually, many of Roche’s biggest blockbusters were born in the USA at Genentech, its South San Francisco based subsidiary. Roche’s acquisition of Genentech (initiated in 1990 and completed in 2009) has been a trans formative driver of the company’s success in recent years. It led Roche to abandon the PhRMA trade group in favor of BIO, and to re-brand of many of its drugs from having the Roche imprint on the label to Genentech.
Sanofi is located in Paris, so its drugs originate in France, right? Many do, but with its acquisition of Boston-based Genzyme and more recent business deals with Tarrytown, NY-based Regeneron Pharmaceuticals (NASDAQ: REGN) and Cambridge, MA-based Alnylam Pharmaceuticals (NASDAQ: ALNY), much of the company’s R&D work is now happening here in the U.S. Want evidence for the importance of this American connection? Chris Viehbacher, Sanofi’s German-Canadian CEO, has actually moved from Paris to Beantown."
of the 159 break threw drugs from 2000-2010 111 came from USA. why because of simple economics they will get research fund back here.If all these countries take on there own military cost .they all have same armed forces because they know USA will use the military.if they take on there share of research cost lets see if the people are as eager to foot universal health cost.instead of 35% tax in Germany you give government 60-75% of ever dollar you make.
Medicare is far from social medicine it just prepaid insurance you pay in for 45 years of time you work plus still have to pay another 110 a month after start getting social security. the VA isn't social medicine per say it a benefit for serving your country it a military expense it not a separate tax.
last point there also no mention of that it unamerican.Our constitution limits federal powers and the discuss of medical should be left to states. in Europe they don't get insurance from EU they get it from there country .think of USA as the EU with 54 countries (including territories)
i could go get a bunch of opinion pieces for references but i think you get the idea of how i feel the article is a opinion piece in itself instead of just a fact base explanation of what socialized medicine is. 6thstreetfisherman ( talk) 06:12, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
References
I'll up the ante on my suggestions above. From the very first sentence on, this article has fallen victim to the left-right political arguments over health care reform in the United States. For example, the lead starts off by characterizing "socialized medicine" as a pejorative, which means it is primarily that. By contrast, Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary defines socialized medicine as what it is and makes no mention of how some people have come to disparage the term with their usage.
That aside, almost everything in the US and UK sections is a back and forth of pros and cons. In my view, controversies on subjects like this are an afterthought, something that follows descriptive passages defining a subject's characteristics and historical development. What's here instead are arguments about the viability of socialized medicine. On top of that, the sources relied on in many cases are not only the opinion pieces and mainstream articles mentioned above, but websites such as Politico, Politi-Fact (3 cites) and FactCheck. My POV is that these sites are far less objective and reliable than Wikipedia. For example, at one point, Politi-Fact (St. Petersburg Times) cites someone from the Cato Institute, a partisan source, as the last word on an issue, and then the WP article cites Politi-Fact. Certainly, we should be aiming for something on a higher plane.
My opinion, then, is that much of this article fails to meet Wikipedia's standards for POV, verifiablity, notability, reliability, and good editorial practices. I don't mean to disparage anyone's good faith efforts, nor am I saying that everything is amiss, but because of how consumed we in the US are with the health care issue, much of this is a mess. Therefore, I believe it would be best to spin off the controversies as a separate article. The main article should focus on what people need to know about how socialized medical systems developed and operate worldwide, without fear, favor or judgment. As for the controversies, given the political tempers and temperaments of the moment, I don't think it's possible to come out of this with anything approaching a good article.
The point is, I originally came to this article as an average reader, that is, simply to learn something about the nature of socialized medicine and how these systems are run in different countries. Instead, what I found is something I can find in a million places on the Internet: an unsettled, never-ending argument skewed by political subjectivity. Allreet ( talk) 21:52, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
I see it differently -- as the article itself states, "socialized medicine" is a primarily US term for "universal health care" or "public health care". So everything about systems of health care in the rest of the world should be taken out of this article, leaving essentially nothing but US political controversies here. Though I do agree that most of the Controversy section doesn't belong either. Since "socialized medicine" is in no way a neutral term even for public health care in the US, information about actual US health systems and general coverage of the controversy doesn't belong here either. The article "socialized medicine" should be about nothing but the term itself, and the specific controversies attending its use. (Most of that is contained in the "History of the term" section.) -- Perey ( talk) 14:23, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
The article's lead paragraph uses just three words to define Socialized Medicine: "publicly-funded health care". Besides the debatability of this as a precise definition, every other word in the paragraph relates to the US controversy. This material belongs in a second or third paragraph since it is secondary to the definition itself. Among the definitions available elsewhere on the Internet (presented not as definitive but as examples):
Admittedly, even these could be debated as US-centric, but at least there is an attempt to objectively describe the term. The following, for example, makes clear that the definition given is specific to the United States, thus setting it apart from how the term might be used elsewhere in the world, that is, universally:
A more subjective example follows and would not be acceptable because of the source (a paper or opinion piece from an organization known to promote a particular view of the issue):
The definition here is broad enough to support the writer's thesis that the US health care system is already socialized (more than half, presumably based on Medicare, Medicaid, Veterans' Administration, etc.), but without addressing aspects raised by other definitions.
Certainly, with all the information available, we could come up with something better than the current lead paragraph. Whatever that might be, I would caution against limiting this to the US application of the term. If that requires more than one definition (the range of possibilities), all the better for readers worldwide. Allreet ( talk) 15:51, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
I have added "citation needed" to this even though the text says "according to the New England Journal of Medicine". This journal is being quoted by a website but we don't know where it actually appears in the journal nor where the journal got it from. It is not a figure I recognise from UK coverage of this issue. Unless we can find where NICE states this, is it really valid for this to be used as if it is a fact? Allen Brown ( talk) 09:11, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
I agree it is not appropriate - a)any value woul dbe in pounds rather than dollars (a weak argument I know), but also b) such an arbitary limit does not exist. It has been suggested that the cost per QALY threshold varies between £20,000 and £35,000 dependent on the precise complex factors surrounding each technology assessment and NICE have never officially confimred what threshold value they do use. These figures are at be4st, speculative. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
94.175.230.62 (
talk)
12:24, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
As the template advised, this article was too long and poorly focused and also there are many other articles that cover the different countries' approaches to universal health care which is the global standard term. So I relocated the international material to individual sections in Universal health coverage by country. It still needs integrating into the respective sections there as I advised on the talk page. This edit was a good faith effort to improve coherence, readability and focus as well as remove repetition overall but of course, all the different components need further tightening. Whiteghost.ink ( talk) 02:30, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
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