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@ Chetan vit: Hello, I noticed you changed "later exchanges" to "borrowed", this is not accurate as the source (Book of Shiva by Namita Gokhale) talks specifically about depictions of Shiva in Afghanistan & Tajikstan (painted murals) which was influenced by Indian iconography with the spread of Mahayana Buddhism. Therefore, "later exchanges" is appropriate as these "later exchanges" took place between (Kushan era - Gupta era), since it was not a one-way borrowing from C.A as you wrote. Hope this clears things, please fix it.
Also, Please check the dating source on this sculpture "Shiva standing on Apasmara, carved on the lingam in Gudimallam, 1st century BC", since the Gudimallam page source claims it's from 3rd century B.C, both look suspicious. 117.198.114.70 ( talk) 08:49, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
@ Chetan vit: Address this issue please. 117.198.242.3 ( talk) 21:39, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
lord shiva — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.167.74.255 ( talk) 07:51, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
shiva har 2 koner — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.36.212.34 ( talk) 11:54, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
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On the Shiva wiki entry, Shiva is described as the "creator, preserver, and destroyer" within the Trimurti, along with Vishnu and Brahma. In reality, Brahma is the creator, Vishnu is the preserver, and Brahma is the destroyer. Reference the Vedas if you need proof. This distinction is important. Name Shiva as the destroyer, not the entire Trimurti. 2601:982:C100:9966:4C91:92DE:10AA:514E ( talk) 06:24, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
As a layperson, I find these statements hard to follow.
In the Shaktism tradition, the Goddess, or Devi, is described as one of the supreme, yet Shiva is revered along with Vishnu and Brahma. A goddess is stated to be the energy and creative power (Shakti) of each, with Parvati (Sati) the equal complementary partner of Shiva.
Questions in my mind which require possible clarification in text are:
I couldn't copy edit this area since I myself don't know what's intended here. Ugog-public ( talk) 12:05, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
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Mantra needs to be changed to ॐ नमः शिवाय; per the temple inscription 64.222.180.90 ( talk) 16:21, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
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I would like to humbly request to add the following 4th paragraph to the 'In Contemporary culture' section. The link for this game is ( https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.theshyshrew.boomshiva&hl=en). Thanks for your time.
In contemporary culture In contemporary culture, Shiva is depicted in films, books, tattoos and art. He has been referred to as "the god of cool things"[361] and a "bonafide rock hero".[362]
Popular films include the Gujarati language movie Har Har Mahadev,[363] the Kannada movie Gange Gowri and well-known books include Amish Tripathi's Shiva Trilogy, which has sold over a million copies.[361] On television, Devon Ke Dev...Mahadev, a television serial about Lord Shiva on the Life OK channel was among the most watched shows at its peak popularity.[364]
In the Final Fantasy videogame series, Shiva is often depicted as a benevolent ancient being of Ice Element who frequently aids the heroes against mighty foes (via summoning).[365] Shiva is also a character in the video game Dark Souls, with the name Shiva of the East.[361]
In the Mobile Game 'Boom Shiva', Shiva is depicted as a being from outer space. After his vessel crashes into Earth and almost destroys it, he sets out to help Mother Earth(Parvathi) heal. During the process of this healing, Shiva falls in love with Parvathi(Mother Earth), and together they create the first man and woman, in their image. Later in the game, Parvathi(Mother Earth) takes on the form of Goddess Kali and brings down her rage on the Human Beings of the 21st Century for almost destroying Mother Earth and all other living things. Shiva is the one who calms Kali and asks her to give the humans another chance, promising to manifest each human and bring out their pure and empathetic side. The destruction created by the humans manifests in the form of a being called 'Kalyug', who Shiva defeats in the end of the game. Unscientifically ( talk) 10:04, 10 December 2019 (UTC)
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lord shiva is a tamil word and it is not a sanskrit word.in sanskrit he is mainly mentioned and praised as mahadev. Sudu6s ( talk) 07:56, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
Reading the article, I find the following sentence: "The word shivoham means the consciousness of one individual, the lord says that he is omnipotent, omnipresent, as he is present in the form of one's consciousness."
I am not intending to see something wrong with the intended meaning of that sentence. But I am saying that it is ungrammatical, and that, in its present syntax, it does not have a definite or clear meaning. I will not here and now try to guess what is its intended meaning, but I am asking local editors here to fix it. Perhaps the present syntax is missing something slight, such as a conjunction; perhaps there is some bigger error. In general, a grammatical sentence needs correct syntax in order to give it proper semantics; the sentence fails in that.
Local editors, please fix it. Chjoaygame ( talk) 10:08, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for bringing it up, I'll look into it ASAP. AnM2002 ( talk) 09:01, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
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Hello! I really want to edit something. I know something about the Lord Shiva. In old times some people believed something called the Naalumurthi. It is kind of like the Trimurti. Except it contains 4 gods. In Shaivism (where the Naalumurthi originated), the gods were Shiva-Lord of Creation and the Supreme Being,Vishnu-Lord of Preservation,Brahma-Lord of Production, and Rudra-Lord of Destruction. 168.69.254.102 ( talk) 00:14, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
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May I add in the section "Contemporary Culture" another thing Shiva was in, Shuumatsu no Valkyrie? HeavenlyKitsune ( talk) 13:25, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
{{
edit semi-protected}}
template. Note that the Contemporary Culture section is not intended to be a comprehensive list of all works in which Shiva has appeared. ‑‑
ElHef (
Meep?)
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That mantra is written with a 'dirgha', elongated syllabification of Mahamantra in the aside (right) section, the correct form is ॐ नमः शिवाय,
Please see: /info/en/?search=Om_Namah_Shivaya
Please re-write this to correct this error. 2601:1C1:8901:A600:9135:A10F:A59B:642B ( talk) 21:52, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
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I a, writing because since I am a Hindu I know that Brahman the Supreme god is actually called AdiShiv therefore I would like to add that Magneticcrayon ( talk) 19:08, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
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Add the The destroyer of the universe 78.150.153.22 ( talk) 19:23, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
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Please include my topics, 'Shiva Tandava Stotram' and 'Shiva Tandava Stotram Lyrics'in this page. YOGAMAYEE ( talk) 05:48, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
Copied from
User talk:Joshua Jonathan#Regarding a page
Hi
Joshua Jonathan, You have completely changed what i wrote on
Shiva page. May i know the reason. Because the quote which i added is explaining the process on how people started associating Shiva with Rudra. You have completely removed that sentence and added another sentence from that page. If you want you can add that too without removing this. May i know the reason for removing what i wrote. Thank you. -
MRRaja001 (
talk)
09:52, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
End op copied part
Many authors and writers opines, Shiva as a non-vedic deity. Indian author S. N. Sadasivan says, "Siva admittedly is a non-vedic god nor there is a direct mention of Siva in Rigveda. While some writers made laborious efforts to find for him a vedic abode by linking him with Rudra, the howling god of Rigveda, others have gone beyond the vedic age to trace his origins in primitive tribes, signs and symbols. [1]
The Vedic literature refers to a minor atmospheric deity, with fearsome powers called Rudra.
During mediaeval period many writers associated Shiva with Rudra.
Shiva has pre-Vedic roots, [1] having "his origins in primitive tribes, signs and symbols." [1]
According to Sadasivan, during the development of the Hindu synthesis attributes of the Buddha were transfered by Brahmins to Shiva, who was also linked with Rudra, [1]
References
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Lord Shiva has a third eye on their forehead which they're only known to open when they are about to destroy something. Their eye destroys everything in front of it. Once, Lord Shiva was sitting fully engaged in meditation. Goddess Parvati, his consort came there and playfully covered both his eyes with her hands. Immediately, the entire universe plunged into darkness. ... With his divine power, Siva created a third eye in the center of his forehead. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Uuuuujl ( talk • contribs) 23:42, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
Shiva (/ˈʃiːvə/; Sanskrit: शिव [ɕɪʋɐ], IAST: Śiva, ISO: Śiva, About this soundlisten (help·info), lit. 'The Auspicious One'), also known as Mahadeva (lit. 'The Great God'),[9][10][11] is one of the principal deities of Hinduism. He is the Supreme Being in Shaivism, one of the major traditions within Hinduism. महादेव ओम नमः शिवाय ( talk) 14:57, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
Not clear what you want to change. .💠245CMR💠.• 👥 📜 04:05, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
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It is not god of destruction. It is god of completeness. 2401:4900:4BCE:A152:1:0:5A3:64E5 ( talk) 15:32, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
Lord Shiva is usually called the god of prosperity. He is a householder, again a monk. As a householder, he has a large family. He easily frees his devotees from various problematic situations in life. He is Devadideva. According to Vedanta he is Maha Ishvar. In the Svetasvatara Upanishad, he is described as the Supreme Brahman. Goddess Parvati, the daughter of Himavan, practised severe penance to win Lord Shiva's heart. After years of Tapasya she succeeded in convincing Lord Shiva to accept her as his wife. Shiv-Parvati or Shiv-Durga couple is one of the most worshipped couples in Hinduism. Lord Shiva is a householder, again a monk. As a householder, he has a large family.
Everyone knows the names of Shiva's two sons, Kartikeya and Ganesha. But many may not know that Mahadev has three more sons. Like their father, they also have great qualities. Let's find out the brief stories about Shiva's five sons.
Kartikeya or Kartik is the first child of Lord Shiva. Kritika, the wife of a sage, nurtured him and he was named Kartikeya. Skanda Sashti or Kumar Sashti, a popular Hindu festival is dedicated to him. His other name is Skanda. Skanda Purana, the largest of all the Puranas, is titled after him. Shiva-Parvati gave birth to this child to kill Tarakasura. In South India, this son of Shiva is worshipped as Murugan.
There are many stories in mythology about the birth of Ganesha. According to Ganesha Purana and Shiva Purana, Goddess Parvati made a beautiful idol. After making it, Parvati liked it very much. Then she gave it a life. This idol was named Ganesha. Seeing Ganesha's intellect and qualities, the gods accepted him as Gananayaka. They decided to worship him before any puja.
After Kartikeya and Ganesha, Ayappa is considered to be the son of Shiva. It is said that Vishnu took the form of Mohini to save Mahadev from the hands of Bhasmasura. This Ayappa is the great son of Mohini and Shiva. Like Kartikeya, Ayappa is worshipped in the south India.
Many have heard the name of Andhakasura. He is believed to be the son of a demon named Hiranyaksha. In fact this Andhakasura was the son of Shiva. Once Parvati joked and closed Shiva's eyes. As a result, creation also became dark. Meanwhile, Shiva's body gradually became brighter. Mahadev started sweating. From one drop of Shiva's sweat a blind son was born. He was named as Andhakasura. Later, Hiranyaksha appeased Shiva in austerities and got Andhak as his son. It is said that Andhakasura had to lose his life at the hands of Shiva because Andhakasura looked at Parvati with covetous eyes.
Shiva's fifth son is Angarak. He is also known as Mangal. Many, however, think that Angarak is the son of Vishnu. It is heard that Parvati fell in love with an orphan boy named Sukesh. She informed Mahadev about the matter. They then adopted Sukesh as their adopted son.
What is the number of daughters in Shiva's family? Most of the people will tell you with their eyes closed - two, Lakshmi and Saraswati. But suddenly, if someone says that there are three more daughters of Shiva, then you may be surprised. Going through the pages of 'Shiva Purana', one can really find three more daughters of Shiva. Their names are Ashok Sundari, Jyoti and Manasa. Let's see the brief stories about Shiva's five daughters.
Lakshmi is a Hindu goddess. She is the goddess of wealth, spiritual wealth, good fortune and beauty. She is the wife of Vishnu. Her other name is Mahalakshmi. Lakshmi's vehicle is an owl. Lakshmi is the goddess of six special qualities. He is also the source of Vishnu's energy. When Vishnu incarnated as Rama and Krishna, Lakshmi became their companion in the form of Sita and Radha. Worship of Lakshmi is performed in the homes of most Hindus. His special puja is performed on the days of Diwali and Kojagari full moon. It is known as Kojagari Lakshmi Puja. Bengali Hindus worship Lakshmi every Thursday. However, in the story of Durga Puja, the biggest festival of Bengali Hindus, Lakshmi is one of the two daughters of Shiva-Parvati.
Saraswati is the Hindu goddess of knowledge, music, art, intellect and learning. She is one of the trinity goddesses Saraswati-Lakshmi-Parvati. The job of these three goddesses is to help Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva to observe the creation of the world respectively. Saraswati's skin color is white. White lotus is his seat. He has a book in one hand and a harp in the other. He is called Veenapani because he has a harp in his hand. Hindu devotees worship goddess Saraswati on the day of Basant Panchami, and chant Saraswati mantra. The first mention of Saraswati is found in the Rig Veda. She is the wife of Brahma. However, in the story of Durga Puja, the biggest festival of Bengali Hindus, Saraswati is the daughter of Shiva-Parvati.
Once Parvati felt intense loneliness on Mount Kailash. She created Ashoka Sundari as her companion. This girl was named Ashoka because she was able to make forget the grief of her mother's loneliness. According to a legend, when Ganesha lost his head in a battle with Shiva, Ashoka Sundari hid his head in a bag of salt. From then on, salt became the main taste of life. Goddess Ashoka Sundari is still worshipped in Gujarat.
The word 'jyoti' means 'light'. According to a story, she was born from the emanating light of Mahadev. According to another story, she appeared from the third eye of Parvati. In several temples in Tamil Nadu, she is worshipped as the goddess Jwalamukhi. It is mentionable that Jwalamukhi temple located in Himachal Pradesh, India, is one of the 51 Shakti Peethas.
Manasa is another daughter of Shiva. She is the presiding deity of the serpent family. According to the Puranas, at the touch of Shiva, the serpent mother Kadru became pregnant and gave birth to Manasa. Manasa is a popular goddess in Bengal.
Like other members, the names of Nandi and Bhringi are also associated with the Shiva family. Nandi and Bhringi are the two closest followers of Shiva. Shiva and Ganesha always kept them under strict discipline. If they disobeyed, they were sometimes sent into exile from Kailash to earth. Among Shiva's followers, Nandi is Shiva's vehicle. Nandi is also worshipped as a bull along with Shiva in the temples. [1]
YOGAMAYEE ( talk) 13:13, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
Not done, please keep the article in a WP:GA form, also not a reliable source .245CMR.• 👥 📜 13:33, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
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Lord shiva had 11 children, 3 daughters and 8 sons. These were not produced by the union of shiv and paravati but they still would count as his children.
Daughters: Ashok sundari, Jyoti, Manasa Sons : kartikeya, Ganesh, Jalandhar, andhak, Ayyappa, Sukesh, bhoona(mars) and khuja 59.89.178.140 ( talk) 19:11, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
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Rock art of Bhimbetka is variously dated from 10,000 BCE to historical and some even to medieval. There is no way to determine a absolute date for rock art. Rock art are always exposed to elements and life, therefore they are subject to organic contamination and radiation. Need clarity on that subject before making huge claims about antiquity of specific paintings ChandlerMinh ( talk) 09:44, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
In the "In Contemporary Culture" section of Shiva's page, I disagree with having the statement, "He has been referred to as "the god of cool things"[393]"
While we can all agree that this is Shiva's archetype, one of which reflects of a romantic rebel....is he actually being referred to as the "god of cool things"? Who other than Wendy Doniger, the writer cited; is referring to Shiva as the "god of cool things"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Interstellar1129 ( talk • contribs) 04:49, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
In Freemasonry, Shiva, sometimes spelled Siva to conform to Kabbalah, is taught in the final few grades as a primer for the worship of Lucifer at the 33rd degree. The order maintains that these beings are one-in-the-same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:6582:8580:C00:B914:52AA:311E:CE1B ( talk) 08:04, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
Everyone knows that shiva had 2 sons but what about shiva’s daughter ashok sundari? Why is there nothing about her? 2407:7000:9FEF:9700:2C00:F80F:3D80:6F28 ( talk) 01:30, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
The entire information on Siva is not expressed in alignment with truth which must be corrected by adhering to the true siddhars. The entire sect of indra agni rudra and morphing them as Siva are totally unacceptable expressions and plain falsehood. This has to be completely removed from the wiki and the actual true expression of Siva which is Anbu or unconditional love and as expressed famously as Anbe Sivam must be researched and truth must be published. 183.82.176.73 ( talk) 19:03, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
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I want to add on to Shiva's children such as adding more clarification. 104.5.57.10 ( talk) 19:23, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
In it's current state, the lead section of the article has a few issues.
"In the Shakta tradition, the Goddess, or Devi, is described as one of the supreme, yet Shiva is revered along with Vishnu and Brahma. A goddess is stated to be the energy and creative power (Shakti) of each, with Parvati (Sati) the equal complementary partner of Shiva."
These sentences are very vague and confusing. What Goddess? by 'one of the supreme' does it mean 'a member of the Trimurti'? are the goddesses (the energies of each) the same as the Goddess mentioned in the previous paragraph?
I would make edits to correct these issues myself, but I know almost nothing about Hinduism, and since the page is a GA I do not want to introduce inaccuracies. Hopefully someone with more knowledge can make the necessary edits to the lead. Winthrop23 ( talk) 12:58, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
Lots of uncited infromation have found its place in the article. Some of the cites do not adhere to wikipedia policies. For eg [1][2] -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo ( talk · contribs · count) 08:35, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
@ BlueMoonset, Redtigerxyz, and Capankajsmilyo: G'day, from what I can tell, it seems that Redtigerxyz has responded to the issues above and they appear to have been rectified. As such, noting that the review is now about six months old, I think this review is ready for closure as "keep". Before I close it, though, are there any objections to this? Regards, AustralianRupert ( talk) 05:43, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
Shiva Tandava Stotram is one of the important Shiva mantras. The stotram was written by Ravana, an ardent devotee of Lord Shiva. It was also chanted first by Ravana himself. Shaivites or Shiva devotees in the world strongly believe in the miraculous benefits of Shiva Tandava Stotram.
The legend behind Shiva Tandava Stotram goes like this: Ravana was one of the most important characters and antagonists of the Ramayana story. He won over Kubera, Ravana’s step brother and the king of Lanka before Ravana. After this victory Ravana was doing a parikrama (circumambulation) of the entire universe on a Pushpak Viman (flying chariot). When he came near Mount Kailash, the chariot stopped itself and Ravana was disturbed by this incident. Mount Kailash asked Ravana to change his route as Lord Shiva and Goddess Parvati were taking rest then. But Ravana didn’t pay heed to the words of Kailash and got annoyed with Kailash. He got off the chariot and thought that he would remove or lift the mountain by his hands. At that moment the entire universe felt intense turbulence as Kailash is believed to be the center of the earth as well as the sacred abode of Lord Shiva as per Hinduism.
In order to teach him a lesson, Lord Shiva pressed Mt. Kailash with his toe. So, the hands of Ravana began to crush between Kailash and the ground. He cried in immense pain and his crying sound could be heard in all three worlds ie Earth, Heaven(Swarg lok) and Hell (patal lok). The sound is called as RAV(crying in agony) in Sanskrit. Seeing the agony of Ravana, gods and Narad Muni felt pity and came to Ravana and suggested him to pray to Lord Shiva as he would surely forgive. Ravana was stuck in that condition for 14 days chanting various Shiva mantras (hymns). Then, on the evening of Pradosh kaal (around 1 hour before and after sunset), he chanted the Shiva Tandava stotram with immense devotion in perfect rhythm. His words were magical and could be heard across the universe. Everybody was mesmerized listening to Shiva Tandava Stotram praising Lord Shiva and describing Shiva’s infinite beauty and power.
In the end, Shiva came down and forgave him. After this incident, Shiva gave him the name “RAVANA”. Earlier he was known by Dashanan (ten-headed man) and after this, he was called Ravana. Shiva was very happy after listening to Tandava Stotram as it was beautifully composed in perfect rhythm by the most Vedic knowledgeable person named Ravana. He was blessed by Saraswati, the Goddess of knowledge. Shiva then gifted him “Chandrahas” sword. ‘Chandra’ means Moon and ‘Has’ means smile. The sword was in Moon crescent shape and indestructible. This is how Ravana composed and gave a sacred gift of Shiva Tandava Stotram to the universe. [1]
References
I think this article would benefit from some tidying of the references, in particular converting the plain-text shortened footnotes to use {{ harvnb}} / {{ sfn}}. Any thoughts / comments? Wham2001 ( talk) 12:32, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
@ Redtigerxyz Would you be able to verify the the content added in these edits? Thanks! — DaxServer ( t · m · c) 10:08, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
The deity Shiva has his origins in the Indus Valley Civilisation, whose cultural descendents carried him to the Dravidian lands. There exists a rich history of Shaivism in Tamilakam and the south millennia ago that is not mentioned once in the article. I took it upon myself to write as much with references included, but certain Wikipedia editors seem to be adamant about repressing this part of history for a twisted agenda that I can't fathom. This needs to be restored, for the acknowledgement of traditions and diversity if nothing else. Chronikhiles ( talk) 13:04, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
Lord Shiva has 3 sons Ganapati Murugan Ayyappan 59.95.3.105 ( talk) 06:45, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
I did not see how Shiva was introduced into Hinduism. Initially worshiping Shiva was prohibited because of being mlechcha but finally was accepted. Would you please mind to add such a very important point 146.196.47.133 ( talk) 15:36, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
Brahma Deva creates, Vishnu Devata sustains, Maha Deva Shiva destroys. A paradox, he also takes halahala to protect the Universe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TejeshwarTaneja ( talk • contribs) 22:56, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
The title of page needs to be changed to "Maha Deva Shiva"
Maha- Great Deva - God Maha Deva Shiva
Maha Deva is a title attached to Lord Shiva. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TejeshwarTaneja ( talk • contribs) 22:56, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
While I understand that this well-written article was created with good intentions, the phrase "Hindu Mythology" has erupted throughout all Wikipedia articles about Hinduism- or Hindu-related gods and can be interpreted as disrespectful. Hinduism is a religion, a way of life, and the 1 billion people who follow this way of life hold its "myths" in high regard. The phrase "Hindu mythology" has been incorrectly used synonymously with the religion for many years, which is understandable, but perhaps it is time to modify that. It is disturbing to simply dismiss the religion as "mythology" given that it is still practiced by a significant portion of the world's population (about 15%). Additionally, as a Hindu myself, I believe it to be quite disrespectful to both my existence. Our Shiva, our Mahadev, is a reality for many, so please refrain from dismissing our Lord Shiva as a myth. I humbly request that the use of mythology in this article should be corrected. I will also be posting this on many other talks including the Hindu Mythology wiki page.
I believe the article (linked below) put it best...although the words myth or mythology itself do not mean fiction, they certainly imply it. Perhaps using the a phrase "Hindu epics" or even "Hinduism" itself is a start.
https://bookriot.com/hindu-epics-are-they-myths/
Thank you for understanding and hope to see some changes! :)
OtherstuffWP (
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21:01, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
There is no point in continuing this. There were some good faith attempts to discuss the matter but the IPs derailed it every time. Eventually the whole IP range got blocked for disruption. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Tamil being the oldest language in the world than Sanskrit needs to be included in displaying shiva's name. Shiva himself spoke that language and it cannot be neglected because of hatredness towards it! 122.164.84.18 ( talk) 07:45, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
122, Sanskrit is presumably included to explain the etymology of the name "Shiva" for the subject of this article; see also
Encyclopedia Britannica. Arguments over which language is oldest, first, classical etc are irrelevant to this article and discussion page.
Abecedare (
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21:51, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
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