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Seeing as the inclusion of Ivo Andric on this main page may be controversial and that having a >4 image presentation on the main page is a little showy (I concur it is). Maybe we can have a revote for a 4-pictured image, one including people who are definitely fully Serbs. Antidote 20:21, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Can someone please just RESPOND to this. Antidote 20:34, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
I very happy that someone has finally taken my suggestions. She's a perfect selection, but I think perhaps her image could be made better - how about a portrait of her? Like the following: http://www.znanje.org/i/i20/00iv04/00iv0403/00iv0403.htm
Antidote 22:20, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
File:NSrbs.JPG - How's this? Antidote 00:59, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, now is good. But first image was this: File:Srbi1.jpg
You must now that current image of Nadežda Petrović is her autoportrait. Her picture on my image is image from 200 Serbian Dinars. -- M. Pokrajac 18:49, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Re: this edit and especially the comment: the U.S. census systematically undercounts individual European ethnicities. Nothing specific to Serbs: Croats, Romanians, probably even Italians and Irish are undercounted. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:52, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
I have noticed that you have removed some parts from the article, like this one (without discussion). It seems that Nikola dont want to discuss about Serbs, but knows everything about Bosniaks:
Nowdays, Serbs are also well known by wars and war criminals. There are more than hundred Serbs accused for war crimes by ICTY. Many of them are threated as heroes by Serbian leadership and ordinary people.
The best known Serb war criminals are Radislav Krstić, Ratko Mladić, Radovan Karadžić, Biljana Plavšić, Slobodan Milošević, Momčilo Krajišnik etc.
-- Emir Arven 15:26, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
since i suspect that cognitive powers of emir harven are in desperate need of some elucidating, let me try to be as plain as possible. would you consider the following edit a valid enntry for an article on muslims: Nowdays, muslims are also well known by terror and terrorist attacks. There are thousands of muslim terrorists who are being hunted by world police all over the planet as mad dogs. Many of them hide in caves. Terrorists are treated as heroes by the leadership of muslim nations and ordinary muslims.
The best known muslim terrorists are Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Husein, Mohamed Atta, Alija Izetbegovic, Ibn Musa Al-Zarqawi, Yasser Arafat etc. ? Suvarijeka 17:34, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
We do not use articles on ethnicities to focus on criminals of that ethnicity. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:51, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Could we possible replace her with someone more qualified to "contributing to humanity" - I can't see how being a mediocre mathematician and the wife of someone famous makes you worthy of that list. Sorry. Antidote 17:49, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
She was not that well known even in her own country until feminists took on themselves her case and pointed out that she might have contributed significantly to Einstein theories - supposedly, she did divelop most of the general relativity, as Einstein was too lazy for the math technicalities. Weather this is true or not I do not know, however, the reason Mileva is listed here is that she was center of this controversy and if she indeed contributed to the physics revolution, whilst Einstein took all the credit, she would rightly be considered as a person contributing to humanity (and certainly not a mediocre). Einstein supposedly pledged to share his Nobel prize with Mileva because of her contributions. But he didnt. Of course, if this is all false, you would be right, but since feminists have put case for Mileva, she is seen as someone whose contributions to humanity are far greater than average - and it is seen as unjust that she did not get any recognition.
I think we should erase Rudjer Boscovich; there is sufficient amount of controversy on talk page of that article, and we shouldn't add oil on fire. The bottom line is, Rudjer is only technically a Serb, by means of his Serb father (which is also disputed), but nothing (or very little) in his life suggests that he cared much about such things; assigning Serb ethnicity to him looks like retrofitting to me. Duja 11:03, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I disagree; Rudjer is the conceiver of the modern Serbian Astronomy :))) (not just technicly; go to the Astronomical Society, they consider him their father :))) HolyRomanEmperor 22:05, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Please check more reliable historical maps! The SERB LANDS "De Administrando" map is MOSTLY according to truth, it´s a FAKE! The croation version of the 10th century: http://www.croatia-in-english.com/images/maps/tomislav.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.39.208.67 ( talk • contribs)
None of the two maps are correct - do not have them in the article!. Population of medieval bosnia was not serb nor croat but
bosnjani. Observe the map's are propaganda marked. The maps also neglect the bosnian state, which has the oldest statehood among them all.
Damir Mišić
18:17, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't get your point. Of course Bosniak means Bosnian, there is no difference what so ever. Bosnjani = Bosniak = Bosnian = Bosniaque. That is already obvious to me. But Bosniak is rather more the latin version of Bosnian, whereas Bosnian is the germanic. Note in french Bosnian is caleed Bosniaque, in Italian Bosnian is called Bosniako. Damir Mišić
They say Bosnia was part of the Kingdom of Serbia, but Bosnia was a Kingdom for itself, with an own bosnian culturel identity, money etc. BESIDES Serbia! since Ban Boric 1150. Bosnia worked together with Serbia and Croatia (against Hungary,...), the nobleman/lords/... married into croat, serb, hungarian and even bavarian families.
The De Administrando says that there have been two serb villages in Bosnia during the 800´s! Does that make Bosnia SERB LANDS? No! But YES, since THEN serbs are settling in Bosnia, among other peoples, who didnt have the strength and to declare an independent state/kingdom!
That SERB LANDS MAP shows the territorial aspirations of the Serbs, TODAY. That aspirations seem to change with every generation. Why didnt you draw in Bulgaria, Hungary or Mazedonia as SERB LAND. Draw in ALL serbian territorial aspirations and not just those, in Bosnia and Croatia. The serbian origin is over the Karpats anyway, is that SERB LAND?
You are creating that Big Serbia right now, but it never existed! That map really hurts, because it motivates the serbs (Chetniks) to bring that entire territory into their control!The instrument is systematically ethnic cleansing and killing, you know that! And my family has experienced that 3 times in the last century!
Most of the Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia were settled there during the Osman.Empire by the Turks, as cheap workers and soldiers against the catholic (since 1700 ca.). In 1624 the Osmans counted 75000 orthodox bosnians, 150000 cath and 450000 musl.bosnians/bosniak/bosnjan.... whatever.
Let rule Love, Peace & Truth.
...but that map is a shame!
AGAIN the SERB LANDS MAP shows Bosnia and Rascia as territories, which belong to Serbia.
BOSNIA NEVER WAS A PART OF SERBIA!!! But Serbias neighbouring country!
Serbia is Rascia, Kosovo, Banat, Vojvodina... NOT BOSNIA! To be precise: even Travunja, Humska,... never have been territories of Serbia!
Whats wrong with you? Honestly!
This site is about SERBS, not SERBIA, anyway!
PEACE!
No, you are both completely wrong. According to reputable sources, in 9th century, territory inhabited by Serbs was as is depicted on the map, and was called Serbia. Nikola 12:16, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
What would you think about Germany, if they declare Poland is german territory?
According to reputable sources, in 9th century... hmhm, REPUTABLE?
The Serbian kingdom (centered around Duklja) was established in the 11th century. Marked by a disintegration and crises, it lasted until the end of 12th century.
Neither Bosnia nor Dalmatia have ever been part of your Fantasy-Kingdom, Smolenski! But yes, Bosnia was part of the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empie during a ten(?) year long occupation in the 800s. (year 814).
The Serbian borders are at the Drina. Sure do Serbs settle in Bosnia, but that doesn´t mean its PART of Serbia.
I still don´t understand why you didn´t draw in all the other territorial ambitions of the serbs.
Are there any sources (except serb ones) where these Serb-settlements exactly are(800-1100)? Administrando talks about 2 villages! (Maybe Byzant promised that land to serbs?? I don´t know tell me!)
Anyway, this selfmade map only creates hostility, there is no other ethnic-group on wikipedia which uses such maps or presents itself in such an aggressive way. Delete the map!
The borders of Serbia are at the Drina now, but that doesn't mean they were in 9th century. No, Administrando says that Serbs settled in Dalmatia. The map draws mostly from it. Nikola 09:56, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
"According to a Byzantine source, Tsar Traklije (610-641) allowed them (the Serbs) to settle around Salonika, which they did, subsequently withdrawing from it to the north."
About Serb lands map: I draw this map based on the one from this historical atlas: Istorijski atlas, Beograd, 1999. This atlas is work of a 10 university professors, thus I do not see why this map should not be accurate. In different time periods Bosnia belonged either to Serbia either to Croatia either was independent. This map only show one specific historical period in which it belonged to Serbia. Claim that this map show the modern Serb territorial aspirations is ridiculous, especially because most of this territory belong to Serbian state Republika Srpska. Thus, denial of the Serb history in these regions actually show modern Bosniak and Croatian territorial aspirations towards Republika Srpska. Anyway, since we do not talk about modern political aspirations but about one historical event, please show some relevant sources, which claim that map is not correct. Claim that Bosnia was a kingdom or that it belonged to Croatia have nothing to do with this map, since it was in completelly different time periods. A basic history classes from elementary school would help, of course. PANONIAN (talk) 17:32, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
And how you know that these lands were not populated with Serbs? You have a population census data from the 9th century perhaps? Of course, I will not just talk, but quote sources. Here is one: Anto Babić, Istorija naroda Jugoslavije, prvi dio, Svjetlost, Sarajevo, 1947. Interesting book, dont you agree? The author is Croat, and it is published in Sarajevo, thus there is no Serb propaganda here. Here is the quote: "From the beginning (of its existence), Bosnia was a motherland (domovina) of both, Serbs and Croats" (page 37 for you). Also, many other Medieval Bosnian documents refer to the Serb identity of the population who lived there, it is simply ridiculous to deny the existence of Serbs in Bosnia in the medieval ages. PANONIAN (talk) 20:58, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
And yes, Bosnia was founded in the 12th century, while roots of Serbia dating back to the 8th century (a difference of 4 centuries), So, please do not talk that Bosnia is older than Serbia, but read your history book from elementary school again please. PANONIAN (talk) 21:10, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
And by the way Damir, despite your (Croatian) nickname on Wikipedia, I just noticed from your contributions in various articles that you edit those articles from Bosniak point of view, not from the Croatian one. I just wonder how that can be? (not related to our dispute here, of course). PANONIAN (talk) 21:39, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Panonian! "Bosnia was a motherland (domovina) of both, Serbs and Croats" Great! "it is simply ridiculous to deny the existence of Serbs in Bosnia in the medieval ages." yes! but nobody denies that anyway!
The only problem is that you insist that at least one map on this site has to show Bosnia as PART of Serbia.
The written history of Bosnia (not the state) is older than 1200 years. It have been 10-30 years in that huge time period, in which Bosnia has been part of the Byzantine Empire (ca814ca834).
...and you have to pick out exactly that time period? ...and you have to show it around on this site, even if no other ethnic group on wikip. presents itself with such maps? even if it creates hostility??? ...YOU are denying the existence of ANY non-Serbs in Bosnia with that map, because it shows purely serb population with clear boundaries and Bosnia as Part of Serbia.
Bosnia never was exclusively Serb Lands!
Heretik
If you did not noticed, this article IS NOT abot Bosnia, but about SERBS, and for history of those Serbs IS important to show that lands where they live today were part of Serbia. I do not care if you post a map where Bosnia belonged to Ottoman Empire into article about Bosniaks, or when it belonged to Croatia into article about Croats, but I repeat, this article is about Serbs, not about Bosnia. PANONIAN (talk) 00:45, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
For "those Serbs" you´re talking about (I hope its the minority) it IS important, because they want to create that GreatSerbia. See what happened 89-95. And you´re still proud of all that? and you still pushing the same "ideas"?
Why don´t you add an article about the brothership of Serbs, Croats and Bosniak before the wars? or today! Why don´t you write, that the only way to make that region bloom is TOLERANCE. Noooo, you´d rather post something to honour and motivate further KILLING! for what !? ah, I remember: Bosnia, part of Serbia. Thank you!
I´m really lucky to have some Serb friends in Belgrade, so I know (otherwise I wouldn´t believe it) that not every of "those Serbs" is so "shallow minded" to believe in these "ideas". Everyone who can read doesn´t need such maps anyway. No other nation on wikip. got one!
Those Serbs only want to know their history, while Bosniak nationalists who want to create Unitary Islamic Bosnia (do not worry, there will be article about it very soon), denying the history of Serbs who live there. The idea of Unitary Islamic Bosnia is guilty for Bosnian war, so you are the one who still support those ideas, not me. PANONIAN (talk) 23:11, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Your nuts! Even the Bosniaks wouldn´t allow an islamic state! Unitary Islamic... ha, ha you´re joking! That´s the serb propaganda again! Probably they busted a guy who posted images on wikipedia: a map which says that "Bosnia is Bosnian Land" ha! The Bosniaks fought for a democratic, undivided and mixed Bosnia as it was since ever!
I told you a mio times, that noone denies the serbian history!
Who started the war in Bosnia? Well the whole world knows that!
For what did they start it? Well the whole world knows that, too!
...and by the way: I don´t support ANY ideas! ANY!:) ...and its funny to see you trying to change black into white. you really tried hard, you really did, but I don´t have the time to play with you any longer.
PEACE
So, you cry because I showed your true face, right? The fact that several of your nationalistic friends just visited the talk page of the new article is a proof that I am right:
You people are so desperate to present yourselves as angels and Serbs as savages, and of course you want to delete every article which can show your true face. Since you already vandalized all articles related to Serbs in Bosnia, you want to vandalize this one too, right? PANONIAN (talk) 03:07, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, can you explain what are my "nationalistic ambitions"? No, you cannot, do you? As for the map, it is from the 9th century, Bosnian state did not existed before the 12th century, thus, despite your wishes it would not be correct to write Bosnia in equally big letters as Croatia and Serbia. Why would I do such a thing? PANONIAN (talk) 23:01, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Dear Panonian,
"the Serbian kingdom (centered around Duklja) was established in the 11th century. Marked by a disintegration and crises, it lasted until the end of 12th century."
You´re so stupid Panonian, it hurts! No one takes you for serious anymore...
"the Serbian kingdom" is not same as "the Serbian state". You can notice a difference here, can you? PANONIAN (talk) 19:05, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
No. It was simply mentioned as one of the parts of Serbia, not state. PANONIAN (talk) 00:41, 10 January 2006 (UTC)