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I propose to change the name of this article to Sequoia, removing the word (genus), in order to bring it in line with Wikipedia naming conventions (flora) and Wikipedia:Disambiguation. Currently all searches for Sequoia are redirected to the disambiguation page instead of here to the Sequoia genus taxon page. This is incorrect because there is one clear primary topic for this term. All other terms at the disambiguation page are either completely different words that could possibly be misspelled (but are not this primary topic), or they are phrases for items that were named after this genus (a school or the Toyata Sequoia for instance). This incorrect redirect to the disambiguation page for the search term Sequoia is causing problems with all the other articles on Wikipedia that believe they are linking to the tree genus by merely using Sequoia, so that this page has shown up on a list of pages that need to be "fixed" because there are about 60 other Wikipedia pages accidentally linking to the disambiguation page. I would appreciate your consensus on this move, thanks! Tom Hulse ( talk) 13:03, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
That would be great info to add to the article! Since it is being discussed here in the name-change section, I'm not sure if it was meant as relevant to that, so I'll bring up that the different spelling does make it irrelevant to the name change.
Sequoia (genus) is still the only primary topic for Sequoia. Most people typing "Sequoia" into the search box really want to go straight to the plant genus, and not have to search for it in a disambiguation page.
Side note: as part of this name change, the name of the disambiguation page should of course be changed to
Sequoia (disambiguation)--
Tom Hulse (
talk)
18:27, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
Kingdom, I know that the term "redwood" can be commonly applied to any of the three
Sequoioideae, but I think we have to be careful not to apply that same level of commonality to the term "Sequoia". Just because we can point to a few people making mistakes in the common name does mean that Sequoia is a common name for both
Sequoia (genus) and
Sequoiadendron, which is the Giant Sequoia. I don't know about that old movie making a mistake, but I'm glad you mentioned
Giant Sequoia National Monument, since that backs up that Sequoiadendron has a different common name, which includes the word "Giant".
A good Wikipedia example for us is
Fir. Even though the
Douglas-fir is the most common by far, and it is what you will always get at the lumber yard if you ask for just "fir"; it is not a Fir at all. A search on Wikipedia for "fir" will link smoothly straight to the
Fir page, and not first to a disambiguation page.
It is of course Wikipedia policy to usually give extra weight to common names, however there is a very clear exception to that for plant names, per
WP:FLORA. Per WP policy, and as we do for the firs, we must link to the correct genus page and then link to the disambiguation from there, instead of letting the disambiguation page be the main page. --
Tom Hulse (
talk)
08:17, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
Another thing to consider is that if a genus did have a common name that is identical to another genus name in which it was formerly included, then that is not a "common" name at all, just an incorrect or outdated name; and that would be good information for notes within the articles, not a means of changing standard Wikipedia policy of structuring article names. --
Tom Hulse (
talk)
17:19, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
Thomas, when you say that a common name is anything people use, yes that's true in one very narrow sense, but really there are more nuances there. A common name in the venacular that does not inaccurately describe a plant is much different that a latin name for another plant that is now incorrect. If Wikipedia were to start treating old incorrect genus names as if they were full-blown-equal common names and give them equal disambiguation treatment with correct names, then the whole system would be a virtually incomprehensible confusing mess.
Also, I think it's very important to remember that Wikipedia's preference for common names does not apply to plants, per
WP:FLORA.
Common names for plants just don't matter here unless there is some major use that makes them more prominent in some other field than in botany. However your hatnote sounds perfect to me, and I would fully endorse it. --
Tom Hulse (
talk)
21:23, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
Thank you Thomas for the link to Nasturtium, and yes I do think they've made a mistake there with disambiguation page coming first. That common name for
Tropaeolum is not just common, but plainly incorrect in all senses. In the encyclopedic interest of teaching people correct names, I would have a search for Nasturtium link right to the true Nasturtium genus page, with a hatnote linking to the disambiguation page just as you described here. I think we should take care not view common names as just another equal version in another naming system... usually they are just wrong names. We can record them, we can acknowledge them, but we can't give them equal disambiguation/redirect status per WP:FLORA.
However there is a difference there at Nasturtium from our Sequoia discussion: Sequoiadendron does not share a matching common name with Sequoia, only a similar one . If people are, as you say, confused about the difference between a description and a common name for Sequoiadendron, then it's not our job to make it more confusing by linking "Sequoia" striaght to a disambiguation page as if a mistakenly similar common name has equal equal standing with the actual genus name. --
Tom Hulse (
talk)
19:36, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
I'll leave the Nasturtium thing lest we get too far off topic, but with Sequoia, regarding a guideline for common vs. taxonomic names, see the WP:FLORA section
Scientific versus common names, where is says "scientific names are to be used as article titles in all cases", except where the plant has special use that makes it more prominent outside botany (rose, coffee, rice).
WP:PLANTS gets even more specific under the heading
Guidelines, where it also says "Scientific names are to be used as page titles in all cases except...". Then it clarifies the redirects/common-names, as we are discussing: "Common names (vernacular names) are to redirect to scientific names". Unlike articles about animals, common names at Wikipedia just don't get any respect if they're for plants.
We all want less confusion here, but the question is not whether or not to disambiguate; rather it's really 'how intrusive should we make that disambiguation'? The hatnotes & separate disambiguation page are *enough*, and letting Sequoia searches go first to the primary topic will bring the article in line with Wikipedia policy. There is no way we could say that Sequoia (the genus) is not the primary topic, especially since the word Sequoia was created soley within the framework of a universally accepted system (
ICBN) that was specifically designed for keeping plant names un-confusing, and that framework says only one plant applies to this name. Consider that the name Sequoia would not even exist if not for this framework. --
Tom Hulse (
talk)
07:38, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
Thomas, When you say you're not sure what more people expect that name to mean, I contend that it doesn't matter. Think about the difference in policy at WP for article titles between plants and animals. Common names are not allowed here for plants: it doesn't matter what people think it means, an enclopedia is here to teach them what it does mean (what you call dictating is really teaching, without which there is no use for WP to exist). Please give me your thoughts re: the fact that Sequoia as a word would not even exist if it wasn't for that framework (ICBN) that was specifically designed to keep names from becoming confusing.
Perhaps I could turn the burden of proof over to you? Intead of 'I think' as a standard, could you show me Wikipedia policy that uses other than the straight botanical name for a case like this, and could you show me Wikipedia policy that allows for a reverse of the redirects for a plant name (right now we have to look at similar common names before we get to the real Sequoia, and searches for Sequoia are redirected to the page of common names)? I did show you policy saying the article name should be the straight botanical name (nothing there about adding "(genus)"), and I did show you policy saying "common names (vernacular names) are to redirect to scientific names". If you think this case is special, trying breaking Sequoia into two words: 1) Sequoia(common), and 2) Sequoia(scientific); then plug these two names into that bold sentence. It says: "Sequoia(common) is to redirect to Sequoia(scientific)". That's it in a nutshell, it completely answers it. That whole page of common names now at
Sequoia must redirect to the real scientific name, not the other way around as we have now. The hatnotes will preserve clarity.
Lastly, I don't think you have directly addressed our early discussion that "Sequoia" is not even a common name for Sequoiadendron, the "Giant Sequoia", it is only a similar name. Thank you, btw, for a very intersting, friendly discussion! --
Tom Hulse (
talk)
19:21, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
Thomas thank you very much for steering more towards Wikipedia policy, but there are more considerations to your quote about what makes a "Primary Topic":
In your A/B example, I'm a little disappointed that you're trying to read confusion into a rule that just isn't there. You are pleading a special case: that the rule doesn't specifically mention when a common name is the same as a genus name. This type of argument is a logical fallacy (see Special Pleading). Since the rule is simple & plain, the burden is not on the rule to specifically account for every possible permutation; rather the burden is on you to show that your special case IS specifically addressed in the rule. So yes, as you say, Goat willow does redirect to Salix caprea; but also in our case here, the rule is clear that Sequoia the common name redirects to Sequoia the scientific name, and no exceptions are mentioned. This quote plainly says that yes, generally, scientific names do automatically make primary topics for a plant article. –– Tom Hulse ( talk) 07:12, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
Thomas thank you for the link to the past discussion, but I'm afraid you are misinterpreting it. First, the votes were primarily on a separate question (common vs. scientific article title), and the dab page issue was ancillary. There were two separate discussions there (two blue boxes), and the first is largely irrelevant because its participants were overturned with consensus due to their lack of understanding WP policy. If you look at the main vote (second blue box), even though disambiguation was not the main voting issue, two voters said Sequoia should be a genus level article, one said it should be a dab page, and one said he would be fine with it either way. That could not in any way be construed as consensus for your position. Remember that I do support disambiguation, and I do support having a full Sequoia disambiguation page, only it should not replace the position of a genus level article.
Regarding your special pleading, I was explaining it with
WP:PLANTS, not WP:FLORA. It says
"Article naming for flora articles differs from standard TOL policy..." (differs in that standard
TOL policy is to give common names priority)
"Scientific names are to be used as page titles in all cases except the following..." (your special case is not even near one of those listed)
"Common names (vernacular names) are to redirect to scientific names." (right now it is the opposite; scientific redirects to the list of common names)
"Ambiguous common names, applied to multiple taxa, are to be listed on a set index article." (your clear answer on how to disambiguate with plants; and no you do not have any special, unlisted case)
"All known common names for a taxon are to be listed in the article about that taxon."
These quotes are not separate, to be taken individually, but are in the context of one paragraph together as the whole policy for article names & disambiguation for plants. Thomas you have to understand that plant name articles are meant to be soley at their scientific name except for the listed special cases.--
Tom Hulse (
talk)
21:22, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
Sequoia are found in the coastal rain forests of British Columbia. 207.216.222.107 ( talk) 02:31, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
It is absurd to state as proven fact that Endlicher did not know of Sequoyah. Lowe merely shows that he could not have read a particular article in English published in The Country Gentleman. It is hard to believe that Endlicher would not have read August Friedrich Pott's article on "Indogermanischer Sprachstamm published i 1840 in Allgemeine Encyclopädie der Wissenschaften und Kunst (second section, pages 1-112). Pott mentions "Sequojah" on page 7 of that work and provides a reference to F.C.W. Vogel's 1834 translation of John Pickering's Indian Languages of America which devotes ten pages to Sequoyah's work. Neither etymology can be regarded as proven or disproved. Nomen ambiguum ( talk) 17:59, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
does not convey a neutral voice and seems to be the conclusion of the reference it precedes. Lowe presents particular problems in that the Fremontia reference is conveniently not peer-reviewed and the magazine specifically disclaims the views and conclusions of the authors, the argument could be made that this is essentially assisted self-publishing. As for Lowe's self-published book (really, Lowe Bros Publishing didn't raise a flag?), regardless of which university library press partnered to publish, it doesn't meet the reliable sources guideline. Muleady-Mecham's article, while problematic in how it was added to the article meets the guideline for reliable sources. Since neither of these two authors have a definitive case, I recommend that a subcategory be created where this controversy can be discounted appropriately. Why we would allow an adjunct professor of biology and a water geologist to continue an argument in a wiki article about a subject that is the specialty of neither is beyond my comprehension. Born2flie ( talk) 01:55, 6 December 2020 (UTC)...however there are debilitating limitations to the arguments presented in the 2017 article,
Leaving all authorial passions behind, the following is suggested as a revised “Etymology” section to the “Sequoia (genus)” page.
The name Sequoia was first published as a genus name by the Austrian botanist Stephan Endlicher in 1847.[4] However, he left no specific reasons for choosing that name, and there is no record of anyone else speaking to him about its origin. Indeed, Endlicher did not provide an etyomology for any of the 622 genera that he named in the 1,906 page, 9.5 cm thick, volumes of his Genera Plantarum and its five supplements. Subsequent to his death in 1849 two schools of thought have developed as to his possible derivation of the name Sequoia.
The first possible derivation of the name appeared in the literature on the subject in 1856, and has carried through to the present,[8] was that the genus was named in honor of Sequoyah, the inventor of the Cherokee writing system,[5] now known as Sequoyan.[6]
The second possible derivation of the name has roots in the 1860s, when it was suggested that the name is instead a derivation (not to be confused with conjugation) from the Latin word for "sequence", since the species was thought to be a follower or remnant of massive ancient, extinct species, and thus the next in a sequence. This second possibility has developed into the concept that Endlicher was pursuing his botanical practices observing the rules of naming plants as laid out in Linneaus’ Critica Botanica,[7,9] as he did with the other 621 genera that he named. In this interpretation, Endlicher, also an accomplished philologist working among the ancient texts in the Hapsburg Royal Library derived the name from the ancient form of the Latin verb “sequo” on which he had published in 1837.[9]
Both possibilities have merit among their followers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sequoia History ( talk • contribs) 14:24, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
A few more thoughts and tentative conclusions, following on the excellent point raised by
Nomen ambiguum:
1) Pronunciation of “Sequoyah”. A point raised against Endlicher's possible use of the name Sequoyah in naming the genus Sequoia is that the pronunciation of that spelling of the name in German is nothing like Sequoia. In fact, the "y" in modern German denotes a very different sound, namely "ü", creating quite a different word.
However, as Endlicher, a published philologist, would certainly have known, “y” for "ü" in modern German is used almost exclusively in transliterations of classical Greek words. Since Sequoyah was not such a classical word, it was unlikely to be subject to that rule, especially since the result was almost unpronounceable (as Lowe (2018)) points out.
In looking for a more plausible pronunciation, Endlicher would have had to seek no further than French, where “y” has an “i” [“ee”] sound. For example, the German “Typus”, pronounced with the "ü" sound, is cognate with “type” in French, pronounced as “i”. Also important is that ”y” in older German orthography of non-classical words often did create a long “i” sound, as in “allerley”.
So pronounced, Sequoyah could well be Latinized to “Sequoia”.
2) A key source. Further, as noted above in Talk in 2013, the most likely source for Endlicher's use of the name is an article in the monumental "Allgemeine Encyclopädie der Wissenschaften und Künste" ("Universal Encyclopedia of Sciences and Arts"), eventually spanning 167 volumes. Section II opens with a 112-page article on "Indogermanische Sprachstamm" ("The Indo-European Language Family") by the well-known linguist August Friedrich Pott. As a linguist and philologist, who himself had published several books on related subjects, it is hard to imagine that Endlicher was not aware of this major article on a matter of intense philological interest at the time.
3) On Page 7, an extensive footnote to this article refers to the famous Cherokee alphabet (actually, a syllabary) invented by Sequoyah. See
Allgemeine Encyclopädie der Wissenschaften und Künste. Importantly, that footnote spells the name "Sequojah". The German pronunciation of the name in that spelling almost exactly corresponds to Endlicher's latinized "Sequoia".
4) Sequoyah's achievement was well known. The Encyclopedia footnote further refers to the 1834 German translation of John Pickering's work on American Indian languages (in translation, "Ueber die indianischen Sprachen Amerikas"),
[3] which describes Sequoyah's syllabary as a "wondrous invention" and mentions Sequoyah twelve times. Further, Sequoyah was the Cherokee tribe's emissary to Washington, D.C. and signed several treaties on behalf of the tribe, so was also well-known as a statesman. This makes it more likely that Endlicher knew something about Sequoyah and considered his name appropriate as an appellation for a major American genus.
5) The Universal Encyclopedia article, coming out as it did in 1840, coincided within a few years with Endlicher’s 1847 Synopsis Coniferarum, in which he introduced the name “Sequoia” for what had been previously named “Taxodium”, thus making it more likely that it was in Endlicher’s mind at the time.
6) Endlicher's process in naming genera. The 2018 Lowe reference
[4]helpfully provides a list of all the genera named by Endlicher - over 200! Of the 194 genera not named after persons, only 8 (4%) end in -ia. Of the 32 genera named after persons, 23 (72%) end in -ia. It seems as if Endlicher may have followed a rule in which attributions to persons should generally end in -ia, while non-person attributions generally should end otherwise. Of course, Sequoia ends in –ia.
These considerations seem to me to strengthen the case that Endlicher did actually name “Sequoia” after Sequoyah. 01:37, 6 February 2024 (UTC) Johninberkeley ( talk)
I now propose to make some edits to reflect the logic above.
I watched an old black and white film about felling redwood trees, and making them into lumber. The film claimed that the timber was resistant to microbes and wet conditions (presumably they were used as props in wet mines). This article would benefit from a section about the use and properties of redwood timber. Would someone in the know care to add such a section? FreeFlow99 ( talk) 13:34, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
![]() | This user enjoys giant sequoia. |
If you like these trees, you may put this Userbox on your userpage like this: {{User:UBX/Sequoia}}
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Tangopaso (
talk)
17:25, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
(Moved from User talk:Kevmin) If you think a wikitable is a poor way of representing the information for fossils please incorporate the information such as the location and the authority in another format instead of blanking the section because you don`t like it. -- Cs california ( talk) 02:30, 22 September 2022 (UTC)