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Much of this section is essentially a copy of the page found
here. There is no specific copyright elements reserved, but there is no indication that the site is under GDFL or other license. Has permission been granted to copy? --
Nemonoman16:46, 15 February 2006 (UTC)reply
Jnana is a major term in tibetan buddhism. Give me some time to rewrite this to include that aspect. i've just started to collect citations for use. but it's such a major term in buddhism, long term there will definitely need to be an article about it. minus the spam links... -
Owlmonkey (
talk)
17:35, 10 January 2008 (UTC)reply
oh sorry, didn't realize that you just redirected as a way of deleting the page. and i was referring to the resulting redirect content. got confused. shouldn't this enter the standard AfD process instead? Or you're making an argument for speedy deletion (by redirect)? -
Owlmonkey (
talk)
17:54, 10 January 2008 (UTC)reply
This is NOT spam and not copied from any books or websites. I might be unaware about editing in Wikipedia. Expert editors can edit this article as per Wikipedia standards as it is very important aspect of human consciousness. J Krishnamurti had spent his entire life to explain what is Self and how to realise it. But due to conditioning of human consciousness, he was not able to explain his own teachings. Whatever written in this article is sheet facts about human experience, editors should tally with his own way of experiencing life.
Vitthal Sawant (
talk)
02:01, 17 January 2022 (UTC)reply
I suggest we move subsections to their respective main articles. Then either turn this article into only a disambiguation page, similar to the
enlightenment article or then delete it. Thoughts? -
Owlmonkey (
talk)
03:02, 3 February 2008 (UTC)reply
It might be made into an article someday, but now it's just a collection of 'According to's. I think you're on the right track - merge, dab, and leave the first sentence. The term is notable enough to not delete the page entirely, imo, and has different connotation from similar terms like enlightenment. I saw your note at
Talk:Paramahansa Yogananda - the content (one quote) from here is already in that article. ~
priyanathtalk19:36, 17 February 2008 (UTC)reply
I agree that the content can go to the respective pages, maybe to the talk pages for people to add in if they see fit. The Sahaja Yoga section doesn't add anything to the main article so I'll delete it now. I'll delete the Yogananda material as well if it is duplicated. I previously redirected the page, because the only meat on this page is also on the
jnana page. This page would be worth keeping if there was other content related to 'self realisation' but not necessarily jnana, and I expect it would be mainly modern, although, in philosophical circles, the term was used as far back as 1874 according to OED online:
"1874 W. WALLACE Logic of Hegel xxi. p. clx, This process..may be called self-realisation (or development). 1876 F. H. BRADLEY Eth. Studies ii. 59 What remains is to point out the most general expression for the end in itself, the ultimate practical ‘why’; and that we find in the word self-realization. Ibid. 75 There is self-realization in all action. 1907 ILLINGWORTH Doctr. Trin. xii. 245 This realisation for which the Christian looks, while it is the realization of himself, is not self-realisation. For..it is not in the last resort his own achievement, but the gift of God." --
Simon D M (
talk)
10:28, 18 February 2008 (UTC)reply
All the pages you have provided have nothing to do with the concept of self realization... groups especially have their own version of self realization, which is in absolute contrast to what is stated in this page, for example, in case of
Sahaja Yoga their self realization is achieved when they feel cool breeze, in their head... merger will create more and more confusion. --
talk-to-me! (
talk)
06:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)reply
Yes, each group has their own view of the term self-realization. Therefore, I'm proposing we move each traditions view of the term into their respective articles instead of trying to provide a comprehensive survey here. Right now it's not comprehensive and therefore not
neutral. Later if someone really has the ability and inclination to research a neutral comparison of the use across all traditions that's still possible later-
Owlmonkey (
talk)
11:51, 18 February 2008 (UTC)reply
I'd like to propose we keep the article as a disambiguation - because it does have wide usage at least in some traditions - and have it link to the traditions that use it instead of trying to create a list of usages here. Just a list adds no value, and takes the views out of the context of their tradition. Better that the topic is discussed within the context of each tradition's main article. This is similar to the
enlightenment article, a term similar to this one. If there was a scholarly body of work comparing and contrasting the use of this term across multiple traditions then this article could add value by going into those comparisons. I don't know of any work like that though. -
Owlmonkey (
talk)
19:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)reply
I agree, the
enlightenment model works best here, until someone writes (with reliable sources) a general article on self-realization as a term, it's evolution, and the comparisons you mention. ~
priyanathtalk23:42, 18 February 2008 (UTC)reply
Proposed Change
OK, how about the following as a disambiguation page for this article then:
^ātmajñāna, literally "knowledge of the soul or supreme spirit". A Sanskrit-English Dictionary by Sir
Monier Monier-Williams (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1899),
ISBN0-19-864308-X.
Most eastern teachings use the term with the traditional meaning which I've referenced above - realization or knowledge of the soul. The more psychological 'self-actualization' or 'psychosynthesis' are significantly different, and are western derivatives with a different meaning. I suggest changing the heading 'As a way to describe.....' to the more accurate "Self-Realization according to various teachings". It's more neutral, and covers a wide range of everything from 'traditions' to 'religions' to 'new religious movements'. A simple disambiguation page doesn't need to get into defining whether something is a religion, sect, tradition, heresy, etc. The list simply needs to include notable teachings that have 'self-realization' as a notable aspect of their teaching. ~
priyanathtalk19:45, 19 February 2008 (UTC)reply
I'm really not tied to the As a way to describe
enlightenment or spiritual attainment: text but it's an attempt to complete the lead sentence Self-realization may refer to: and contrast it from the first bullet A translation of.... Is there a way we could reword according to various teachings so that it completes the sentence Self-realization may refer to...? I think that's where the a way to describe came from for me; a syntactic need to categorize the usage. How about A term used in spirituality? -
Owlmonkey (
talk)
02:39, 20 February 2008 (UTC)reply
I see, you're right. I've taken another stab at it, because the various traditions in that first list use 'self-realization' in the sense of ātmajñāna, whereas psychology uses it in a somewhat different sense. So I've made those traditions a subset of the sanskrit definition. I'll be away for a couple of days, but I think this is on the right track and you know what you're doing. If you want to tweak it some more and then go live with it, please do.
An additional minor note: the first sentence says 'a translation of the Sanskrit term Atma Jnana', but the wikilinks go to two different Sanskrit terms, 'Atma' and 'Jnana'. I think it would be more accurate to say 'a translation of the Sanskrit term ātmajñāna' with no wikilink(s), and have
Atma and
Jnana under 'See Also'. Monier-Williams is definite that the term is ātmajñāna, all one word. ~
priyanathtalk03:37, 20 February 2008 (UTC)reply
Writing 2 words or 1 is just a matter of style, when writing sanskrit words are always run together. I agree that the 'self-realization' of Pscychosynthesis is not atmajnana, but I would say that these 2 streams of use probably overlap in many new age uses. The variation probably just comes from the varying understandings of 'self'. Even where self-realization does mean atmajnana, there is a wide variety in interpretation. For the Sahaja Yogis simply feeling a cool sensation in one's hand is taken to be Self-Realization. For them and the Radha Soamis and the Dada Bhagwan people, Self-Realization is just a step on the way to final release, while for others it is final release. --
Simon D M (
talk)
07:54, 20 February 2008 (UTC)reply
I'm neutral on rendering it one word or two, but if it were rendered as one I would expect a separate article for that singular term. It seems the Jnana article is currently attempting to encompass the usage though it doesn't explain how atman figures into it that well. It could use some help there. My preference then would be two terms so each article and related meaning is linked to. So then it more matches the wikipedia structure than the original sanskrit perhaps but is better wikilinked. -
Owlmonkey (
talk)
17:29, 20 February 2008 (UTC)reply
In the context of Vedanta, atmajnana and jnana are usually synonymous, I'd just link there. If the
jnana article ever had subsections, I guess it should point to the relevant subsection. I think there's also an issue of undue weight with the inclusion of Dada Bhagwan, the WP article doesn't have any sources other than the self-published promotional material. --
Simon D M (
talk)
12:32, 21 February 2008 (UTC)reply
I don't know enough about the sects to weigh them really, but it sounds like you're saying that the article is currently questionable. I'm fine not linking to it unless others object. I think we can use consensus to decide on individual links. -
Owlmonkey (
talk)
00:35, 22 February 2008 (UTC)reply
I found an RS on Dada Bhagwan and added it to the talk page, so maybe it is notable enough to include. There's still an issue with undue weight and the groups included though. Perhaps we can just hope that it will be fixed with time. --
Simon D M (
talk)
10:06, 22 February 2008 (UTC)reply
This article really needs help if it's gonna stay.
I tried to make it neutral-er, but it's really difficult because of the lack of real information here. I suggest deleting this article, because right now, it serves no purpose.
99.55.104.30 (
talk)
05:42, 15 December 2010 (UTC)reply
Almost the entire section "Qualities of self-realized people" is incorrect information. Maslow has nothing to do with self-realization. Maslow's concept was self-actualization, (which Wikipedia already has an article on,) and the source that is cited also confirms that Maslow's concept was self-actualization, not self-realization. Self-realization isn't even mentioned in that article. The section that starts with "According to Maslow..." and ends with "...self-determining" should be deleted since it is providing false information.
Kevthefrog (
talk)
23:14, 3 April 2012 (UTC)reply
I therefore propose this article be merged into the already well-established one, by adding a substantial section on Hindu and other religious conceptions of self-realization to
Self-actualization.
HGilbert (
talk)
09:54, 18 May 2015 (UTC)reply
these are reasons to do something about this article not a basis for a merge. They are basically different topics and this would be a very forced and unnatural merge. Because of that and no comment action in nearly a year, I'm removing the tags.
108.183.102.223 (
talk)
01:42, 6 April 2016 (UTC)reply
This article could use some reworking. I think that if the information was more thoroughly researched and cited, it would make this article more credible. There are other articles that may benefit from being merged with this information, but I do think that it is a good start.
Psychology Says (
talk)
06:52, 21 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Modern spiritual teachings like VARDANKAR teach that self-realization is "a state of consciousness and experience that takes place [out of body] on the Soul Plane" and that no one can reach this without a secret technique called "soul projection."[1][2][3]
References
^Giamboi, Heather. Thousands of Visits to Heaven and the Heart of God: "The Most Profound, Vividly Detailed Out of Body Discoveries Yet!". Direct Path Publishing.
ISBN978-0996907309.
^Twitchell, Paul. The Shariyat-Ki-Huray Book Two. Direct Path Publishing.
ISBN978-0996907378.
This is not about "spiritual teachings" (plural), but only about Vardankar, a split-off from
Eckankar. If anything is to be mentioned about, it should be about this Eckankar-sect. But even that would be
WP:UNDUE, given the information at
Shabda, where it is stated that Vandankar is only one of many sects which adhere to the concept of shabda. The Eckankar-page links to
Contemporary Sant Mat movements; that, and
Sant Mat, may be a relevant level of information.
Joshua Jonathan -
Let's talk!06:10, 17 January 2018 (UTC)reply
Please explain how it is relevant, and why VARDANKAR is relevant. In addition to
WP:UNDUE regarding VARDANKAR itself, the sentence above is also non-informative: "a state of consciousness and experience that takes place [out of body] on the Soul Plane" is incomprehensible without additional information. The sentence also gives no clue whatsoever what "soul projection" is.
Joshua Jonathan -
Let's talk!08:46, 17 January 2018 (UTC)reply
The term vandalism is reserved for the intentional disruption of pages. Content disputes are just that, and are very common; they should be politely discussed and appropriately resolved on the talk page. @
Oplagreek:: please read the
WP:assume good faith policy.
Clean Copytalk19:45, 17 January 2018 (UTC)reply