![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on April 22, 2018 and April 22, 2020. |
Question: the bit about the Canadian soldiers and the urine-soaked handkerchiefs confuses me, in that chlorine says that bleach mixed with ammonia or urine produces chlorine gas, which is toxic, etc. How does adding urine to chlorine gas produce the reverse reaction? I don't understand the chemistry involved. grendel| khan 19:52, 2004 Dec 14 (UTC)
Who was the offender in this battle, and who was defending the town?
The casualties list 58,000 Indian lost but the content of this article does not mention their role in this battle. If there are Indian units operating in this battle, what is their strength?
I was going to ask this question, too. The Lahore Division is mentioned in the intro paragraph, but I removed the link, as it went to a political subdivision of present-day Pakistan. My question is: were the troops primarily Indian, Pakistani (moot then, but petinent today — mostly Hindu, or mostly Islamic) or British (caucasian) colonists from south Asia. This makes a huge difference when describing 20 K soldiers. From this battle alone, the Lahore Division merits its own article clearly listing its composition (volunteer and/or conscript Indian, Pakistani, and/or volunteer/conscript British living in India). My personal bet (based on practice at the time) is South Asian troops with caucasian British officers, but I have no references to back that up.
As well, I just listed the Algerian colonial troops as their own contingent in the campaign box. Surely Pakistani/Indian troops should also be listed as well, albeit under a UK flag icon appropriate to the era. Surely, just on a NPOV basis, equal credit to should be given Arabic and South Asian colonial troops as is given to Newfoundland colonial troops. Suggestions? Esseh 07:44, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
The subject of colonial soldiers in ww1 and 2 is not yet covered in wikipedia? It will be an interesting topic for years to come. I think the research in the years 50 and 60 pointed out indians eg. suffered greatly in several battles of the ww1 war. nr's over 50000 don't sound impossible in that context. Would not it be possible to trace at what speed colonial forces have been transported to europe? It is my impression that what got to french soil was all deployed (and generally used up in the proces), more so before '18 ('17?). You might say the scorn for human lives was mirrored by the racist values. I would not at all be surprised if the number of indian victims in this single battle exagerated the nr of canadese by a factor of 5 or so. I think that has also been reported, that in several single battles whole indian(or otherways colonial) divisions got largely whiped out. It's somehow awkward that there is no resolute information of either side of the former colonialist administrations to clear up this. 77.251.179.188 10:50, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
NINAD
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.225.238.151 ( talk) 05:05, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
I learned recently through my modern African history class that the Senegalese rifles (I guess this would be the French Colonial troops) were also involved in this battle, fighting somewhere close to the Canadian troops. Unfortunately I don't have much information on there involvement, or a source outside my lecture.. I'll look into adding to the article later perhaps, I have to study.. Basser g 03:14, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Good luck, LeadSongDog ( talk) 22:08, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
-I added a quote from the journal of a soldier in the Queen Victoria Rifles during the battle, Anthony R. Hossack. He described the French Colonial Troops fleeing the site of the gas attack towards the rear lines. One French troop was stopped at gunpoint by an officer in Hossack's unit and questioned about his cowardice, only to succumb to the effects of the gas and fall to the ground before the officer. This first hand account demonstrates the confusion, naiveté, and utter chaos that was a result of the new usage of poison gas during the second battle of Ypres. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.1.71.219 ( talk) 09:51, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
I've just tagged the article. large sections seem to be written from a purely Canadian point of view despite them being minor players overall in the battle. -- LiamE 01:33, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
The Canadians held the line during the gas attacks, the French and their colonial troops having succumbed to the gas. This is a well known fact, and built Canada's reputation as shock troops. Why pick this article to whine about neutrality? The article was probably written by Canadians, simply because it is important to them, historically. Just as other articles are written by nationals who take an interest in their nation's past.
If you have something to add, then add it. But don't denigrate a nation's military accomplishments with insults of "being minor players". But I'll be generous, and assume you're in Will Roger's latter group, pissing on the electric fence, as you seem neither to have read about this topic, nor, obviously, observed it.
Really sensitive of you to post this nonsense so close to the 90th anniversary re-dedication ceremony of the Canadian National Vimy Memorial. Go play some cricket, and leave fallen heroes in peace.
Taken from CBC Archives: http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-71-2425-14165/conflict_war/firstworldwar/:
On April 24, 1915 the Germans used chlorine gas against the Canadian First Division at the Second Battle of Ypres. With the wind in the German’s favour, anything short of a full retreat would have put the Canadians in the path of the gas. Realizing the only fresh air was at the German line, the Canadians pushed forward, breathing through water- or urine-soaked rags as makeshift gas masks. (It was believed that the ammonia in the urine would neutralize the chlorine.)
The Canadians held their ground until they were reinforced by British troops a day and a half later. The battle earned the Canadian forces great respect, though it came at a cost of some 6,000 men, and ended in a stalemate.
Hardly "minor players", as you say.
--
Does it have a Canadian perspective? As it stands yes, and any contributions to expand it from the other national groups would be very useful to see. Anyone? I would be interested, I'm Canadian...
I can assume that the author is not only Canadian, but is likely a member of the "The Calgary Highlanders" Army Reserve Regiment which perpetuates the 10th Battalion CEF. The counter-attack to the gas attack of April 1915 is the most signifigant battle in terms of the History/mythology of the regiment. I was in that regiment 10 years ago, and I still carry in my pocket a medallion which is endorsed "The Glorious Memory - 22 April 1915". And with a few exceptions since the end of WW1, every year around the 22 of April, there is a formal parade, a church service, and a reunion dinner for the 10th Bn CEF and The Calgary Highlanders all in the name of "The Battle of St. Julien". Perhaps in the greater scheme, it is of minor historical note - but for the soldiers and veterans of the Calgary Highlanders on that day - there is no battle more important. And to that the memory of 1915 is still kept alive today - It can't be denied that is important.
22 April 1915 - The date is a bit of historical regimental curiosity - it refers to counter-attack by the 10th & 16th to the Gas attack - while technically it falls under "the Battle of Gravenstafl" it is always called internally as "The Battle of St. Julien" (which did not officially start until the 24th April.)
--
198.166.37.31
05:36, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Face it Liam, if the British wrote it, the Canadians would be listed as British troops, as they are in many of their history books, and the contribution forgotten. But, as I said, if you have something to add, then add it to the article. No one will take offense to historical accuracy; only to your number crunching of the Canadians into insignificance.
If you're wondering why Canadians care that others don't write their history, just look what you said: "British loses around 60,000 of which about 6,000 were Canadian." You, yourself, speak of Canadians as British.
But, you are really missing my point. I would be more than happy to see this article filled out by the Germans, and the French, and the British, and the Indians, et al. (Even the Americans, though they weren't there.) No one is stopping them. They just haven't yet. But I'm sure they will. And they should, as the article is incomplete. Again, I'm just wondering what made this particular article stand out to you for a POV, particularly as your main interest on WP is cricket, and perhaps Will Rogers.
I could understand your POV if others had made edits, and the author of the article reversed them to bias the article, but that just isn't the case, is it? What seems to be the case is that you are complaining about the POV on an incomplete article that no one else seems to care enough about enough to expand on, including you, by your own words, except for the, in all probability, Canadian author.
Now, lets discuss you're stated, on record, rationale for a POV on this article, by looking at what you said:
"I've just tagged the article. large sections seem to be written from a purely Canadian point of view despite them being minor players overall in the battle."
First, the way you expressed your sentiments is offensive; don't be surprised when people take offense to them. Second, you argue that a modern Canadian author should not write it because Canada had a minor role, as you claim, in the battle. That's what you say, Liam. So, by your own reasoning, it would be alright if it had, say, a British POV, as they had a major role (at least numerically). That's what it boils down to, Liam. That's what you're saying.
On top of that, it's wrong. The Canadians weren't the only ones gassed that day, but they were the ones who stood their ground. That did not win the day, but it ensured a stalemate did not become a loss. And under circumstances no soldier had ever seen before, as gas was new, and I can only imagine how terrifying. That, my British(?) friend, is a major role, despite their numerical strength. (By the way, a Canadian division was larger than a British division.)
Note: This isn't a macho contest to see who's is bigger, so cut the below BS:
"Secondly before trying the "if you have something to add" rubbish with me try signing in so we can see how many edits you have made and to what and when. You can easily click on my name and then my contributions and look at the many hundreds of edits I've made."
It goes to the heart of my point. That you randomly picked an incomplete article you don't care about to complain. Your unwillingness to correct the situation yourself is evidence to this. "Why don't I add to it?" you ask? Because I'm not the one with the neutrality problem. And why should anyone change anything for you? Are you that full of yourself? You must be, if you pull that "just look at my edits" trash.
Your POV is frivolous and should be rubbished. You are just being impatient with the article's completion. There is no agenda to skew the neutrality of this article. But the original author is not required to bring every editor in for consultation, either.
Disagreement doesn't give you the right to deface my commentary, in your last edit. Smarten up.
No problem, Liam. You strike me as an honest fellow, and I knew you didn't do that on purpose. I have a quirky sense of humour, and couldn't resist pulling your leg on that one. ;) My bad. Be well my friend.
Upon reading the article I'm inclined to agree with Liam, the article focuses incredibly indepth on the Canadian perspective, sometimes I think it may be going to far with mentioning how certain divisions were outfitted and honoured.. Perhaps if things like these are to be included they could be included at the end of the article in a separate section so that they do not break up description of the battle as they currently do. Clearly there needs to be more information on contributions which other forces made, if somebody speaks German they could perhaps read the article on the German wikipedia and see if it is any good. Unfortunately my knowledge consists of what I learned in Canadian history class so I am not much use in contributing to other POV. Basser g 20:20, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree that the article has a Canadian perspective and that it is too cluttered with detail, but remember that the defense (they held with a 4 mile gap in the line) by the Canadians in the first gas attack of the war was the pivitol action (they took the casualties to prove it) of the whole battle and if they failed there we would be talking about the German breakthrough which most likey would have result in the allied armies being cut off, and pieces of them enveloped,which could have led to a German victory in the war. Also keep in mind that knowledge of this battle is taught to every Canadian schoolchild (it is our Alamo, or Thermopylae) and it does not have the same impact to American or British citizens as they have both existed for so long, have had many more wars and battles, or weren't there in the case of the Americans. So it stands to reason the of the people that feel passionately enough about this battle to make an entry would have a large number of Canadians, hence the Canadian perspectives. It was one of the greatest defences in military history and echos in the Canadian heart along with names like Queenstown, Chryslers Farm, Vimy, Passchendaele, Dieppe, Ortona. "We don't retreat, we don't give up ground, and we don't give up any guns." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.74.210.163 ( talk) 00:31, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
I see complaints about the Cdn POV of this article, but when I (a Canadian) tried to put an Algerian flag in the campaign box, it gets removed. Yes, technically at that time Algeria was part of France, but the contribution of Algerian troops is mentioned, and should not be negated. Maybe with a period-appropriate tricoleur? Similarly, I think there should be a mention (and flag) for the Lahore Division, if I could only figure out if they're Indian or Pakistani (again, with period-appropriate Union Jack). Suggestions? Esseh 07:12, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
OK, I just did it again, but added French West Africa and British India also, now if somebody removes it we can try to compromise.. Perhaps we can put bulleted colonial entries to not undermine the fact that they were colonies... I don't know. As for the Senegalais, I only heard about their contribution through my lecture, it's possible that it's not true but I'd like to think my prof knows what hes talking about :) Basser g 20:35, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Another minor issue, when you click the link on Newfoundland, it takes you to the article on the Dominion of Newfoundland which is the relevant time period, however the flag is their currently unofficial green, white, and pink tricolour, should we be using this flag or should the Union Jack be the flag used? This is obviously a minor issue, but I would still like some input. Basser g 21:01, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to go with the green, white and pink as both the article for the Dominion of Newfoundland and the list of Commonwealth members (former members section) utilize this flag. Basser g 21:16, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
OK, added in, with refs. Hack away ;-) Esseh 22:23, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Well you have the references so you have my support. :) Basser g 21:12, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Looks good, also nice photo of Scrimger. Basser g 02:41, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Although I would prefer including Algeria and French West Africa, at the very least Algeria was viewed as an integral part of France at the time and was not even a colony.. See the French_Third_Republic for details.. But we could still include colonial specific references within the article itself. I fear however, that it is too historically inaccurate to include Algeria as a combatant, and possibly French West Africa (I will check that now). Basser g 21:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Help is needed to bring this article to demonstrate a more worldly POV. Anyone who can help contribute to German, British, Australian, Indian, Newfoundlander, or French and their colonial forces roles in the battle would be greatly appreciated. Canada's role has been fairly well defined but it is equally important to ensure all these other groups roles in the battle are portrayed with equal justice. Basser g 21:51, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I've added Belgium, seems pretty obvious that they should be on there considering the battle took place on Belgian soil. Where was the information found related to Australian and Newfoundlander involvement though, I'd like to take a look to see if there is anything on their contribution to the battles. 142.157.197.221 23:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
If there was Australian involvement wouldn't there also have been New Zealand involvement? I'm fairly sure that throughout the war they fought in unified ANZAC divisions didn't they? Basser g 23:40, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
He Basser g. I may be wrong, but I do believe the ANZACs were at Gallipoli during 2nd Ypres, weren't they? Esseh 03:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Yup. 25 April, 1915. Actually, most of the Newfoundlanders were, too, though some were attached to groups in Ypres, I think. Holy crow, I just checked the date. Tomorrow is ANZAC day! Esseh 03:18, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
OK, I checked the "Order of Battle" in Note 1, and the Newfies are not listed. Note 2, however, appears to have mistakenly listed them. They were in Gallipoli, too. I'll take them out. Esseh 03:35, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Alright, excellent I've been looking at sources for French colonial forces and it seems both tirailleurs algérien et tirailleurs sénégalais were at Ypres (though there are references to "black" troops). I just need to take some time to incorporate the info I found into the article, but I'm not sure I have time right now, I'll do it whenever I get the chance. Basser g 04:18, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi Basser g. Thanks for "flagging" my commanders! I still don't know for sure about the Sénégalais, but there appear to have been Moroccains there. Also, I found some great refs for parts of this article, as well as some trivia. The trivia (maybe in an "outcomes" section):
Couple of articles to add there, too.
For cool refs, I have:
Haven't had time to read them all yet, but from what I've seen, they are good. The No.s 2 and 3 were written by men actually there, and No. 4 is a later history. Check them out, tell me what you think. Esseh 06:51, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Alright, I'll check out these references as soon as I can, but right now I've got some major studying to do for an exam I have Monday, after that though I am done university for the year so I should be able to contribute some more. I'll get the references I've found for the sénégalais. Basser g 02:10, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
..."the first time a non-European force (Canadians) pushed back a major European power (Germans) on European soil." I think the Mongols, Huns (Rome), Moors in Spain, Portugal, Sicily, and Ottomans might disagree. Maybe "the first time a former colonial force..."? Thoughts? Esseh 07:12, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Hello again, all. Found some interesting pics for the article, and thought I'd post them here until we're sure where they can/should go. As they get used, we can delete them from here, and we can add any more we find to the gallery. Sound good? Esseh 22:12, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Alright, good photos, I'm not the greatest at formatting photos into a page, so I'll leave that to you Esseh. Basser g 02:07, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
The section on Kitcheners' woods is essentially a word-for-word copy from the Veterans Affairs Canada website ( http://198.103.134.2/remembers/sub.cfm?source=feature/bh_somme2006/bh_youthoverseas/ericbrenchley). hodgetts 02:45, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
=Is there any generally acceptable term to describe troops from what used to be the British Empire? I think it's obviously unacceptable to call them "British," since this demeans the extraordiarily important role of troops from countries around the world. "Imperial" seems wrong and vague at the same time. It could mean troops supporting the Holy Roman Emperor or any Emperor. "Commonwealth" does not accurately reflect the fact that the Commonwealth did not exist, with many of the toops coming from countries subjected to colonial rule by the UK. It is not too difficult where only two countries are involved (though too often the non-British section gets ignored,) but when as in this case you have at least 3 it gets more and more difficult. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.169.162.100 ( talk) 08:30, 22 April 2009 (UTC) Map Date The map with the section on the Battle of St. Julien talks of British positions on 31 April. There are only 30 dayts in April.
It is proposed that Battle of Kitcheners' Wood be merged into the Battle of Gravenstafel section.
To be honest I think Battle of Kitcheners' Wood would be a candidate for deletion rather than merge but thought I should bring it to this forum first-- Labattblueboy ( talk) 03:52, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
-- Thukyd1des ( talk) 10:59, 13 August 2009 (UTC)-- Thukyd1des ( talk) 10:59, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Answering an issue raised in NINAD's paragraphs about proportions of conscript/volunteers in the Indian Army at the time, and not wanting to disrupt them, it may be enlightening to point out the British Empire troops at that battle were all volunteers. The Indian Army was volunteer throughout the war, while conscription had yet to be introduced in Britain (who began it in 1916) and Canada (in 1917). Special:Contributions/Cloptonson ( talk) 20:57, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
I question the correctness of referring to Canadian troops taking part as being from a former colony. At that time Canada had been a self-governing Dominion (and confederation of provinces with their own legislatures) within the British Empire since 1867, which politically put them above 'Crown Colony' rank. It may have been commonplace in Britain to think of Canadians as 'colonials' but there were Canadians at the time (eg Sam Hughes) who would have strongly disagreed with the implication. (NB - I am not Canadian but have much studied that period.) Might a rephrase be in order? Cloptonson ( talk) 21:08, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
This is the first time that I've heard of this, although I've been interested in the subject for quite a while. Up to now I was convinced that the first succesful chlorine gas attack had been made at Steenstraete. There was a monument erected after the war - destroyed by Nazis in the next war - rebuilt differently afterwards. I have visited the place in 2009, and I have seen numerous historical pictures. Funny I can't find any reference to this on Wikipedia. What's up with that?
Also a little note in the article currently says the former "Gravenstafel" is today named "Gravenstafel". Using the links provided I find "s'Graventafel". Changed the note accordingly.
--
BjKa (
talk)
10:10, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
In section 'Aftermath' I notice inside a paragraph the sentence. "Another Canadian Division joined the British Expeditionary Force in late 1915, joined eventually by two more in 1916." Unless there is evidence this was directly attributable to the battle, is this relevant as the additions were several months post-battle? There was a continued recruiting drive in Canada from 1914 through 1915 into 1916, the three added divisions being raised from that. Cloptonson ( talk) 21:19, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
The list is incomplete regarding the British Empire and Allied commanders. The singular presence of Arthur Currie on the list - then one of at least three Canadian brigade commanders of the 1st Canadian Division - may mislead readers into thinking he headed the Canadian contingent present when in fact the Divisional commander, his immediate head, was Edwin Alderson. If Currie is to be listed then arguably so too should be Turner and any other Brigade commanders present in the sector. What are the criteria for names listed? Cloptonson ( talk)
I've noticed that there's an external link to my old unmaintained website at http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~cjmorton/service/ww1/ypres/overview.htm . I'd like to move this to my new maintained site as http://cjmorton.org/ww1service/ww1/overview/ypres.html . However, since this appears to represent a potential conflict of interest under Wikipedia guidelines I'm adding this note to see if there are any objections. Thanks. MochaFossil ( talk) 11:25, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
Made some cosmetic changes to copy the Arras 1917 model, added references and citations, removed a tag and changed round some photos and pictures. Added matters of detail like casualty numbers gleaned from divers sources. Keith-264 ( talk) 12:35, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
From the British point of view, 2nd Ypres was the first big battle of the war, and it brought home to the army, the politicians and the public that this was actually a major conflict that might last years. Valetude ( talk) 17:00, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
Did a cheeky little ce, added some citations, changed some web cites to books, put a map and a loc map in the infobox, changed to efn for notes and thought that there were too many long quotations for an article this size. Keith-264 ( talk) 12:31, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Second Battle of Ypres. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 00:09, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
Can someone on here specify/clarify the contribution of Australian, South Africa, New Zealand, Newfoundland and Southern Rhodesian forces in this battle? I don't doubt individuals from these nations served in British, Canadian and Indian units during this battle, but as their own specific national units did they take part? because I'm pretty sure as units almost all of them didn't start taking part in battles on the western front until the following year, so shouldn't they be removed if they took no part? Afterall, on the Battle of Jutland page I remember reading that there was individuals from Australia and Canada that served in the Royal Navy but their not listed under their own flags in the infobox, perhaps the same can be done here if that was the extent of their involvement. Thanks in advance. Chelseacanuck21 ( talk) 16:54, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
@ Trappist the monk: Greetings, I think I've just negated your edit; apologies but I'm a beginner with the hsp format. I don't know what it was there for. Keith-264 ( talk) 13:08, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
{{
hsp}}
templates because referenced follow immediately after punctuation. Hairspace is a space so doesn't belong between punctuation and the succeeding reference.The gravestone (an unmistakable CWGC stone) in Kells, Ireland, is stated to be a soldier who died during this Battle at Bellewaarde. However at that stage of the war British soldiers who died on the Western Front were not repatriated. About this statement I would say to whoever wrote the caption 'Prove it'. I have checked up the CWGC website and do agree with placement of the grave in Kells. It is probable he could have been wounded in the battle and died after being repatriated. I note the date of his death precedes by one day the beginning of the subsidiary Battle of Bellewaarde. Cloptonson ( talk) 13:38, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
the head is the wrong shape, theres hair where he never had hair, the picture quality is way off for 1906, it doesn't exist anywhere else on the internet except wikimedia commons, it's only used on this article, the nose is wrong. i don't think its a photo of fritz haber and im not convinced it's a real photo at all. the close up angle also seems wrong for 1906. DParkinson1 ( talk) 11:53, 5 April 2023 (UTC)